EPTI think lack of golem buff will reduce clear ability more than they think. They say they want to tune for not having it, but a lot of off meta picks really leaned on it heavily. For example Sol jungle can use it to land stars and qs and kog jungle can lay down tons of stun with the w attack speed boost. Now maybe riot doesn't care about off meta picks, but if you are banging the champion diversity drum at every chance you get you should be encouraging rather than limiting off meta picks.
[Patch 6.20] Ivern General Discussion - Page 7
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
I think lack of golem buff will reduce clear ability more than they think. They say they want to tune for not having it, but a lot of off meta picks really leaned on it heavily. For example Sol jungle can use it to land stars and qs and kog jungle can lay down tons of stun with the w attack speed boost. Now maybe riot doesn't care about off meta picks, but if you are banging the champion diversity drum at every chance you get you should be encouraging rather than limiting off meta picks. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9290 Posts
On October 14 2016 03:17 lilwisper wrote: One thing that has been bothering me is stated in the introduction comments to this plant idea. One of the things that was said is that the jungle is too easily "solvable". I take it to mean that people find the best actions too quickly. Quoted From Xypherous Saying that things are too easily "solvable" seems more like an issue that certain numbers are always clearly better than others. With all the data they have onhand, why not do better averaging of said numbers? For instance lets take an ADC autoing. Let say there are 2 ways that an ADC are being played, a kiting style and a set and fire style. The kiting style would want more attackspeed and the set style wants bigger damage per hit. There has to be a way to make it so that the DPS is more or less the same while also promoting the style a player wants to play as. EDIT: Also wasn't it Riot's position that they wanted league more casual friendly as compared to say DotA or HotS? What's wrong with things being quickly solvable? You have one or two champions who are the best at style X and one or two who are the best at style Y and 20 other champions nobody wants to pick unless they don't care about efficiency. Even if Riot gets really lucky and you somehow get three styles viable you still end up with a very small pool of optimal picks. Champion diversity is casual friendly (everyone gets to play their waifu). | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 14 2016 03:29 General_Winter wrote: Yeah and removing wolf smite nerfs primary invading counter jungleing junglers (not so many of those these days. I think lack of golem buff will reduce clear ability more than they think. They say they want to tune for not having it, but a lot of off meta picks really leaned on it heavily. For example Sol jungle can use it to land stars and qs and kog jungle can lay down tons of stun with the w attack speed boost. Now maybe riot doesn't care about off meta picks, but if you are banging the champion diversity drum at every chance you get you should be encouraging rather than limiting off meta picks. Every smite now gives red smite though. Which I think will offset it. I'm sad though, I like the spot the jungle is in. Riot hates junglers. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 14 2016 06:21 cLutZ wrote: No, they hate that there is only 4 competitive junglers per patch. So does everyone who watches pro play. They need to add more things for junglers to do for that to change. There are only so many different ways to gank and teamfight. Jungle had some more diversity when they could also be vision specialists. As it is they might just shift the 4 viable junglers, otherwise everyone will just pick the most effective at the couple things that junglers get to do. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4146 Posts
For example if all champions clear with similar speed (doesn;t matter if this is actually achievable) and can clear 3 camps per 3 minutes this will bring us balanced jungle with many choices there. Does Riot have this idea, do they know exactly what they wanna achieve there? Because, saying we want variety and balance is too broad, however, putting some plants or other shit there is too detailed, for any project to be successful, first step is to know exactly what you wanna achieve. "What" is the critical question you wanna answer, not how, not when, not where or who, but WHAT | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 14 2016 09:02 Scip wrote: reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records. Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500 so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances) only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 14 2016 09:16 PrinceXizor wrote: I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records. Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500 so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances) only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500. Oh shit half the junglers have losing records it's almost as if it's mathematically impossible for all the junglers to have winning records | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 14 2016 09:36 Scip wrote: Oh shit half the junglers have losing records it's almost as if it's mathematically impossible for all the junglers to have winning records 3 have losing records 2 are tied and 2 are winning (with one of those 2 being the least popular of the 7) That points to people picking champs that don't work repeatedly, probably because rek sai WAS the top pick in the past there is really only 1 winning jungler choice, and there is a reason she is pick/ban at 100%. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 14 2016 09:58 PrinceXizor wrote: 3 have losing records 2 are tied and 2 are winning (with one of those 2 being the least popular of the 7) That points to people picking champs that don't work repeatedly, probably because rek sai WAS the top pick in the past there is really only 1 winning jungler choice, and there is a reason she is pick/ban at 100%. dude like literally regardless of the state of the jungle about half the junglers will have negative winrate that's not an argument for anything also 40% winrate is hardly "does not work repeatedly". They also work repeatedly | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On October 14 2016 10:44 Scip wrote: like literally regardless of the state of the jungle about half the junglers will have negative winrate that's not an argument for anything I mean thats half. this is literally all but 1 and the cheese picks, and maybe skarner. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
nida olaf have high winrates then skarner and china picks you what mate? literally all but 1 what? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 14 2016 11:00 cLutZ wrote: The worlds patch is great for the jungle (except Nidalee). However, its a historical exception, and still not even at S2 levels. Let's not talk about S2 jungle. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
Every competitive jungler clears well, duels well, ganks well early and transitions to late game off tank well (Yes that's a generalisation, but not far off). All the competitive jungle champs are generalists and all do variations of the same formula. Riot just needs to accept this and change the non-generalist champs to be competent laners, like Mao'Kai and Nautilus. Also I love how they mention the satchel seed helping no mobility skill champs. Mobile champs benefit just as much, and can now get into Baron/Dragon to steal without Flash or their dash skill. | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4123 Posts
Give me my GP10 and perma oracles back already. It feels strange to me that they try to balance the jungle around pro play, even though they always say they don't want to do that. Jungle variety and balance in soloq is very high at the moment, gone are the days where there were 6 jungle bans. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 14 2016 17:09 JazzVortical wrote: As someone that pretty much just watches the game, champion variety is absolutely the thing that makes you want to watch. Having 'solved' jungle routes isn't a problem, having a tiny, incredibly stale 'viable' champion pool is. Every competitive jungler clears well, duels well, ganks well early and transitions to late game off tank well (Yes that's a generalisation, but not far off). All the competitive jungle champs are generalists and all do variations of the same formula. Riot just needs to accept this and change the non-generalist champs to be competent laners, like Mao'Kai and Nautilus. Also I love how they mention the satchel seed helping no mobility skill champs. Mobile champs benefit just as much, and can now get into Baron/Dragon to steal without Flash or their dash skill. Don't forget the non-generalists that get thrown in the dumpster like Sejuani. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault. Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants. So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad. | ||
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