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as a dota player who started lol just this season, ive never understood why riot insists on having the jungle as a set role. besides the fact that the game would be more similar to dota, why cant you just make it so that jungling is optional yet completely viable depending on team comps etc. i think the having rigid lanes (top/mid/adc/support/jg) really handicaps devs when trying to balance the game.
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They should just give jungle camps a death passive "when this dies it deals 1 damage to its killer for every second they have been in midlane. ". Problem of midlane stealing raptors solved. Plus it would mean we probably wouldn't need to give blue to those greedy mids anymore.
Edit: on a more serious note, the Swedish forest idea actually sounds pretty good
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i have no hope for those changes
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i'm actually not a big fan of the current jungle compared to season 5.
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I'm really not convinced this plant thing isn't an elaborate joke.
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On October 13 2016 23:25 Ansibled wrote: I'm really not convinced this plant thing isn't an elaborate joke.
I hope it is.
Not quite on board for this...
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Jungle scares me less then the assassin changes. They change the jungle every season and it doesn't seam to change much in the long haul.
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Are they removing smite buffs like wolf spirit completely or just reworking them?
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Riot smoking too much plant.
More seriously I suppose I just don't see the need for this and have a general bias against RNG. There are better ways to add variety to game play.
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On October 13 2016 07:52 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2016 22:20 Jek wrote: Oppressor is for movement impairment, which blind is not. It work with his shrooms.
If you start with Guradian's I think you should wait for corrupting potion (huuuuge advantage for early trades) it only take 10 seconds iirc. It's the cheesy 1v1 version of the current "wait for aegis" meta on tanks in regular aram.
I'd go for hybrid reds instead, especially if you're not going full AP which I honestly think would be bad as you can just go Cowl+sustain into Visage and wear the AP variant down for the gg ez. Another alternative could be AS reds too to win the early push forcing the opponent to either tank minion damage or allow some easy chip damage. AD reds if you start with LS seems like a better option.
After some consideration LS quints would probably the best and allow you to stay in lane forever. Sustain is king when you cannot recall for health.
I think Shiv (or hurricane I suppose) would probably be the best first buys simply because you can push so much faster without using mana. Dont look to trade, look to push and chip damage get the sustain from masteries instead of additional items.
For masteries I'd go 12/7/12 if you wait for corrupting. Stash+Corruping = super good good. the 11 and 12 for Vampirism and Perserverance. Resolves and Ferocity's 12th point seem bad for 1v1.
and 18/0/12 if you dont wait for corrupting Warlord and Perserverance
or 9/17/4 For Vampirism, Percision and Recovery.
Fervor is only really worth if you look for kills, which you shouldn't - no reason to play risky when a sustain build would just do small trades and win over time.
If the opponent is going AP just grab banner and upgrade all cannons. rip i tried this strat and lost the early game was really really strong. however the big flaw was that the other guy will always outdamage you and win the fight. so if you get slowed by 1 random shroom, he will chase you down and kill you. also you can't poke him down or win trades since your damage sucks. he will win trades and the sustain is just playing catch up. he has his enough sustain from masteries/item/health relics. it was so dumb, one shroom hit = death Thought Oracle's Elixir was a given.
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So they're removing raptor buff, spirit wolf and ability to detect invisible champions from pink wards, that's not good. I don't think Scryer's Bloom is a good enough compensation. Dark times are coming.
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and what they actually do is taking the game out of balance for 3/4 of the new season, then at the last couple of months of the season the game will finally start reaching a balanced state, there will be no more must bans, people will know what shit each shit is doing, will stabilize their paths, builds, farming and roaming patterns and then rito will turn the game upside down. Thats what they do
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On October 14 2016 02:33 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2016 15:30 cLutZ wrote:On October 13 2016 14:32 Scip wrote: How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
Decent idea. I do think they need to remake the map if they want to fix the jungle. One thing they consistently fret about is the laners taxing jungle camps. Maybe they shouldn't have 3/5 camps immediately adjacent to and easily accessible from a lane. Hell that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone because junglers actually have to make a meaningful choice between farming and being in gank/countergank position. One idea I had for making ganks more viable was giving baseline smite a debuff where killing a smited opponent gave kill gold to all assists. Not sure if that is actually a good idea though
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On October 14 2016 02:34 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2016 02:33 Slusher wrote:On October 13 2016 15:30 cLutZ wrote:On October 13 2016 14:32 Scip wrote: How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
Decent idea. I do think they need to remake the map if they want to fix the jungle. One thing they consistently fret about is the laners taxing jungle camps. Maybe they shouldn't have 3/5 camps immediately adjacent to and easily accessible from a lane. Hell that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone because junglers actually have to make a meaningful choice between farming and being in gank/countergank position. One idea I had for making ganks more viable was giving baseline smite a debuff where killing a smited opponent gave kill gold to all assists. Not sure if that is actually a good idea though The problem is making junglers more different from laners is simply not the way they should be going. Jungle items that gave similar debuffs to champions on smite have consistently been exploited by lane champions, then nerfed (thus making junglers even weaker relative to lanes). I'd still argue that the Gank vs. Farm balance is still tilted towards ganking (if you don't suck), even if it has become less so. So its kind of a solution in search of a problem.
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I don't get why they think jungle pathing is currently stale and boring anyway.
How I path through the jungle changes game to game, match up to match up, enemy decision to enemy decision.
Having creative yet efficient jungle pathing, and timing currently is the difference between being Meteos and Reignover.
I do think understand there design goals, they are trying to change things to fix what isn't broken at all. Removing wraith smite nerfs ganking junglers quite hard as well.
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One thing that has been bothering me is stated in the introduction comments to this plant idea. One of the things that was said is that the jungle is too easily "solvable". I take it to mean that people find the best actions too quickly.
Quoted From Xypherous
I mean, if the feature is bad - I'd hope we remove it rather than keep it in the game.
I get that you don't want it to be implemented in the first place - but given 'not doing anything in the fear of pissing people off' and 'taking a shot and reverting once it's a bad idea' - I think we have to go for taking the shot.
The current game has problems in that things constantly get solved too quickly. We've tried a lot of things with mixed levels of success and we need to keep experimenting on this in whatever form. I'm not saying plants are perfect - they're just the latest thing that has had pretty good internal feedback that we want to see if it works on a larger scale.
Please keep giving the feedback if things are working or not - because at the end of the day, we want to try bold things to keep you guys engaged and also have the ability to pull mistakes if they're clearly not working.
Saying that things are too easily "solvable" seems more like an issue that certain numbers are always clearly better than others. With all the data they have onhand, why not do better averaging of said numbers? For instance lets take an ADC autoing. Let say there are 2 ways that an ADC are being played, a kiting style and a set and fire style. The kiting style would want more attackspeed and the set style wants bigger damage per hit. There has to be a way to make it so that the DPS is more or less the same while also promoting the style a player wants to play as.
EDIT:
Also wasn't it Riot's position that they wanted league more casual friendly as compared to say DotA or HotS? What's wrong with things being quickly solvable?
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But it isn't solveable... otherwise there would be no discernable differencell between any two junglers of the same tier playing the same champ.
But Peanut, Svenskeren and Bengi wouldall choose vastly different pathing and choices on Lee Sin despite all being good junglers.
They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I can farm for speed, farm safely, farm for good ganking timings, farm to fuck up the other junglers. Depending on me as a player my choice as a jungler is going to be different.
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