Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
We reorder the scoreboard so you don’t have to. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGYGames drafted in New Champ Select will automatically order the scoreboard by role (top, jungle, mid, marksman, support).
On October 05 2016 04:03 JimmiC wrote: nunu buffs scare me, he is the last guy I want on either team xD
He's my most played champion this season and I only just learned that his passive was called Visionary. (Got to be among the top 5 least-known passives in the game.)
I like that they're trying to update assasins but I'm worried that the period between first updates and inevitable nerfs is going to be very unfun for everyone but assasin players. Shaco was a pain in the ass even when you could counter him with a pink ward, now he'll be even more obnoxious unless they'll change his stealth into that camouflage thing.
I don't see how this new champ will be viable in the jungle. How can they balance taking both health and mana from him to create the rings on his camps. Plus I wonder if he can tell that he camp got stolen before or after the ring matures in the fog of war. I can imagine some crazy camp stealing shinanigans but I guess I just don't understand him yet.
I created a smurf and forgot how shitty the cheapest champs are.
Nunu's buff just seem unimaginative and lazy. His q should be synergistic with smite as a jungler and be used as a bruser tool on support.
If you actually like playing Nunu his buff is really nice imo. Outside of making consume aoe (lol) this is about the best you could do to make him good w/o a rework of some kind
The major differences from 2015 are that you'll be able to select two preferred positions and veto your least favorite (when autofill is enabled or if you choose fill).
Consume isn't that bad of a jungling move given how much HP the big camps have compared to the other creeps. Nunu's (who I've played support more than Jungle historically so I'm no expert) problems I've observed have been:
1. He cannot 1-shot the big wolf or the big raptor with consume. This makes his counterjungling much less effective than it needs to be. 2. A lot of the EXP and gold is now in small monsters, so he cannot do the trolly things he used to.
I don't understand why they didn't make the "well fed" buff like feast where it just falls off (or halves) on death instead of a timer. Seems like a needless loss in efficacy during baron/dragon dances or turret sieges.
On one hand, his early game is awful because he takes damage before he gets camp experience.
On the other hand, his early game is awesome because you can buffer golems then insta clear red, and buffer wraiths with Q start and be at a lane with Q & E level 2 at like 1:50, then collect your camps and be on par with the other jungler if it doesn't work out, and be ahead if you get the kill.
Its like Lee Sin level 2 ganks except you still get to farm.
But if you run into an enemy jungler you dead as fuck, because after that first smite you get zero experience for like a 30s buffer behind the enemy jungler. There are big windows where you will be at 50% HP and an enemy jungler that left his jungle can come kill you before you collect your camps, then take your camps. He feels hella vulnerable to like a Lee Sin or Nidalee for example. Or even like a Nunu / Shyvana could likely shut him down hard. His dueling is awful. He will flat out die so easily to common junglers.
Just my first impressions.
Thinking movespeed quints with Magic pen reds and AP blues. Prolly Armor yellows to protect from invade? I dunno. Maybe HP/5, he gets real low in jungle.
You can also start like Gromp + Blue then instant smite enemy red too, which you can then potentially quick gank or continue to farm.
I dunno, I'ma throw in like 50 games or so on him, but I feel like you need to be way smarter than the other jungler or you just lose.
Or you hard snowball from ganks. His ganks from behind with E slow -> Q are free as hell. Same with FlashQ->E.
You need Skirmisher Sabre for sure, just to not die 1v1.
You can clear a side of the jungle real quick with Smite by doing a camp, doing second with smite, then going back to the other one. Feels good when you invade, but makes you can't actually fight any of their jungles... which I pretty much only play Lee, Elise and Nid typically, so this requires some adjustment.
I think he has potential to take over games. He kind of scares me in that I don't think he can 1v9 the same way an Elise / Lee / Nid can. If I snowball all my lanes and they are retarded then you straight up cannot carry your team. Q especially feels awkward when you land and people just dont take it. I guess thats how Thresh' feel. I kind of feel like he might be trash at like plat or lower due to this inability to 1v9, but I also think he might be trash past that too because at that point jungles start to become better at pining down weaker early game junglers too.
I wanna become better at teamfighting with him before I really make a judgement. He feels like he has potential.
You can't grove Drake / Baron, but with Daisy tanking he can pretty much solo either. Although it is hella hella slow. Impractical for sure.
Also, Ivern Q is trash for peeling, guaranteed to get a teammate to reposition themselves into death. Better not to, at least at this point. Unless guy is going to die and is running for his life and not trying to kite.
He seems better at enabling a diver on your team than defending your team. Would be money with like Irelia, Jax, Pantheon... Likely even better with shit like Nasus, Garen, Mundo, Olaf, Darius, Moredekaiser, Singed, Swain, Illaoi etc
The major differences from 2015 are that you'll be able to select two preferred positions and veto your least favorite (when autofill is enabled or if you choose fill).
yay
On the other hand they remove ranked5s again and replace it with a flexqueue with rank restrictions for playing together...
guys do you have an issue after this patch of your champ freezing when you try to ward? Lets say you have trinket on 4 and pink ward on 3, the moment you press either 4 or 3, your champ stops its movement. Sometimes when I want to ward a bush a screen away from me, I set my champ to go there and I also position the screen over the bush, I press 4 and start waiting for him to appear in the screen and he never does... Another annoying moment is when you fight close to bush and an enemy hides in it, I press for ward and my guy freezes and I lose the flow of the fight...
I discovered INSANE syngergy between Cait and Ivern. He can create bushes for Cait in teamfights so she can proc her passive faster!
Every 6 attacks (attacks while in brush count as 2, attacks against structures do not count), Caitlyn will fire a headshot, dealing either 150% damage to a champion or 250% damage to a minion.
On October 06 2016 21:00 Sent. wrote: I discovered INSANE syngergy between Cait and Ivern. He can create bushes for Cait in teamfights so she can proc her passive faster!
Every 6 attacks (attacks while in brush count as 2, attacks against structures do not count), Caitlyn will fire a headshot, dealing either 150% damage to a champion or 250% damage to a minion.
On October 06 2016 14:26 cLutZ wrote: His free blink is, from 1 game of seeing it, hilariously good with Toplane Malphite.
Yeah I played him with a Darius top in one of my games. Darius carried so hard. Enemy rumble top died to my lvl 2 insta gank then just on shit on real hard.
Then with IvernE Darius had infinite sustain and sticking power in late game fights and with IvernQ he gapclosed and shit all over anything I hit.
Ivern prolly best with melee carries. His E Shield gives like 3k hp in a team fight on top of the disgusting 70% slow. Ivern turns Darius into a Dota style melee carry.
On October 06 2016 19:13 Gahlo wrote: Can you use his root to zip into Drgon/Baron pits?
Yes sir.
Ive had relativev success, 3 wins 2 losses, but I haven't played him into a good enemy jungler yet. Sample size also is hilariously low. I'm really scared you'll just fall over and be completely shit on. I would feel quite confident in being able to style on and finish the game in 20 minutes if I got to pick Lee or Nidalee into an Ivern. Only game where I felt I won due to my kit though instead of being along for the carry ride was the above game with Darius.
Only saving grace for ivern is he doesn't scale with gold that well and can likely 2v2 quite well. So even if you're getting run over you're not completely fucked maybe.
He's definitely super vulnerable; you lose HP before you get xp. And you cannot contest camps at all even to just steal your own big creep back.
Solo Q, replays. Riot is giving us all the things. If they also announce end of season removal of teemo everyone will be perfectly happy and never complain again.
On October 09 2016 04:27 Complete wrote: Anybody having trouble getting to the LoL login screen?
I keep getting "Unspecified error occurred. Please check the logs for more information."
there was a little marker in client telling people that there have been some issues with login. dunno any more than that. standard "we're looking into it" message.
On October 08 2016 20:40 Gahlo wrote: Is it possible to hide dragon or baron in Ivern's bushes?
Have it done against us. It's possible to block all line of sight to them. Dont know if you have to use multiple bushes due to their sheer size, but it's certainly possible to block vision on them. You can do the same on buffs too. It's cheesy as hell.
There's a lot of cheeky places he can place them so he can look around corners but you cannot see him or the bush. Quite an interesting mechanic.
On October 08 2016 20:40 Gahlo wrote: Is it possible to hide dragon or baron in Ivern's bushes?
Have it done against us. It's possible to block all line of sight to them. Dont know if you have to use multiple bushes due to their sheer size, but it's certainly possible to block vision on them. You can do the same on buffs too. It's cheesy as hell.
There's a lot of cheeky places he can place them so he can look around corners but you cannot see him or the bush. Quite an interesting mechanic.
best way it do it is to place the bush between the dragon and the ward/entrance so they no one is standing inside it to reveal themselves, but they block LOS.
The range on the brush-making is crazy long. i imagine there is a lot of shenaniganery you can pull with it.
I just played Lee Sin into Ivern... Yikes that was the free-est game.
I'm sure it is much the same if you were to pick Elise or Nidalee instead. Tree is so easy to track in his jungle and is just so easy to kill.
He really needs buffs to his clear damage. Like he needs to take half as much damage otherwise the only time you want to pick him is if you have advantages in every lane or atleast half the map (ie Mid + bot or Mid+top) so the other jungler can't feel safe coming into your jungle; in which case you can push the tempo with Ganks for your lanes and hard snowball.
I also think Daisy is really clunky and needs some work as a skill.
On October 09 2016 12:43 iCanada wrote: I just played Lee Sin into Ivern... Yikes that was the free-est game.
I'm sure it is much the same if you were to pick Elise or Nidalee instead. Tree is so easy to track in his jungle and is just so easy to kill.
He really needs buffs to his clear damage. Like he needs to take half as much damage otherwise the only time you want to pick him is if you have advantages in every lane or atleast half the map (ie Mid + bot or Mid+top) so the other jungler can't feel safe coming into your jungle; in which case you can push the tempo with Ganks for your lanes and hard snowball.
I also think Daisy is really clunky and needs some work as a skill.
He's gotta be the worst base stat Melee champ in the game, ignoring unmounted kled. I understand not wanting him to be oppressive an counter jungle centric, but if you dont want a counter jungle champ why give them the ability to clear any camp in 2 seconds.
He has 10 more base Hp than lee. 20 less HP per level, .525 less base HP regen and .09 Less regen growth, 11.75 Less base AD, 1.0 Less AD growth, .07 Less Base AS, and .6% less AS growth, 2 less base armor and 1.7 Less Armor Growth, and 20 less movespeed.
The only jungler with worse base stats than him is Nidalee, in ranged form only. and that's an unfair comparison because she has 6 combat spells instead of 3, and longer range.
If you Want to make Ivern playable in the jungle His numbers need changing, whether thats on his abilities, or his base stats/stat growth There is no reason that he's a jungler that you want to flash farm with, but the gap between him and his opponents grow with each level, At least give him better damage on his W if you want him to be able to scrap in the jungle. 30 at lvl 1 means you gotta take it at lvl 3 or 4, because it's not worth the sacrifice of mobility or survivability. 50/55/60/65/70 or 40/47.5/55/62.5/70 instead of 20/30/40/50/60 would be interesting. and give him some ability to juke around in the trees.
i Dunno his playstyle seems completely counter to a jungler as is. he wants to be able to spend smite in the opponents jungle for free camps, but has to completely avoid the other jungler, while being slower than them. Why does Ivern struggle to outrun an opposing jungler even after buying boots.
i've got the hang of daisy though. Im into it.
The biggest oversight i've seen is that when you collect a camp, you don't get that heal pack you get for killing the camp. why not?
Ivern can get hamstrung so hard by the fact that he takes damage first, then has to come back around to get his jungle.
He gets so low after setting up groves, he becomes like 1 or 2 shot-able... and if the other jungler finds him through the beacons flashing him towards the tree, he gets to just literally destroy the whole last 45 seconds of Iverns time while taking away his ability to get experience for the next minute.
You can ding level 4 then walk into Iverns jungle and guaranteed he is still level 3 at half HP walking to collect his groves. If you kill him here he is so incredibly fucked. You leave his jungle level 5 and he is still level 3. Then he only has one place to go, the other side of his jungle which is now spawning, so you meet him there at level 5 and it is even easier to kill him.
Now you are full retard big and can walk wherever you want because a 2 level lead this early in the game is just completely disgusting. Ivern may as well AFK because his jungle is now yours and all he can do is try to gank and pick up scrap XP when you show on the other side of the map. At that point Ivern is too weak to even try to make a play on that side of the map because chances are laners can kill him if he tries.
I think it is fine to have him weak early, but if he dies early game he is exponentially more fucked than any other jungler if they die early. And it doesn't matter what jungler you are, if you die to the other jungler you are pretty fucked. They need to give him an early game boost. He has so much potential to just be completely pushed out of the game early for very little reward lategame. He is a good champion lategame, but not exactly one who is good enough to be worth potentially being forcefed your lunch the way he can be. Ivern is like old Nasus before they literally tripled his sustain from his passive, gave him like 100 more base HP, and halfed the mana cost of his W and E.
I think he should get the HP back from collecting the grove, and I also think he should get half the XP when he plants the grove, and half the XP from collecting it. Or 1/3rd of it when he plants, and 2/3 when he collects. And even then I think he needs his base stats nudged up a bit.
It'd be interesting if he could stand and channel a grove to speed it up, to help get him through that early time. Or if he falls behind he doesnt have to wait 36 seconds to get any xp.
I dunno, I guess I'm being harsh Ivern is alright. He can do some cute 3 buffs, or if the other junglers screws up you can easily get a 4 buff on Ivern too.
Its weird, he feels like Shaco to me. Every early game with this champ is a shit show.
IWDominate really likes Ivern, so there could be something there.
I like him too. but i don't play jungle often, and i run him support because i love daisy lvl 6 all in. He definitely seems heavily utility focused because i never seem to be able to do much solo like you can on most supports.
but daisy is crazy strong. nearly guaranteed tower/dragon on cooldown if you play your cards well.
Doesn't he have to have that downside because the ivern player doesn't have the chance to have the "worst" case scenario happen to him, which is where you leash your red, have retarded lanes, and get killed when your own red is like at 40% hp, then they just take everything anyways.
I think the worst case for Ivern is worse. If you get killed doing red at 40%, then you also lost raptors and golems too.... But not the ones you were about to take, the ones you started taking 10s ago and lost your health making you kill-able.
And you are guaranteed to be that low. Even if you dont get the leash, if you path smartly and jungle well you won't be real low, even if you picked like Eve or something else equally real bad at jungling.
He is a cool champ, he just feels hard to carry on, and real real risky early. I dunno, he feels like Nunu with Shaco's early game.
That being said, I have the feeling he'll start feeling more like Thresh and less like Nunu when other players get better at his Q.
On October 09 2016 18:01 PrinceXizor wrote: I wonder if IWD's success on ivern will dip when people stop always falling for the red buff -> mid lane lvl 2 gank.
then again. people never really stopped falling for that in the past.
It's the same as shaco really.
I mean ivern gets a free camp from smite every so often, but every other camp is an investment. You don't even have to kill ivern, if you play something that can counterjungle fast, just taking the camps is already going to set ivern stupidly far behind.
I think Shaco can 1v9 a little better than Ivern can though.
Ivern does no damage if your team is retarded and can't land the 800 damage AoE nuke shield with a 70% slow.
Where as if you pop off on Shaco you can 1 shot anything, then split push etc. On Ivern you have to hope you have a diver who is competent and able to help you 2v8.
On October 09 2016 18:38 iCanada wrote: I think Shaco can 1v9 a little better than Ivern can though.
Ivern does no damage if your team is retarded and can't land the 800 damage AoE nuke shield with a 70% slow.
Where as if you pop off on Shaco you can 1 shot anything, then split push etc. On Ivern you have to hope you have a diver who is competent and able to help you 2v8.
Yeah, I watched about an hour of ivern on IWD's stream. Dude is stupidly tanky with the OP shield, but he can't solo carry a game unless he's ungodly fed.
On October 09 2016 23:29 Fildun wrote: As a jungler, how can you counter an Ivern on your own team trolling you with taking smite and instaclearing all of your camps?
You make a deal with him. You ganking very often (read: live there) and in return he'll farm their botside jungle with your backup instead of your own jungle.
Champs are supposed to suffer when they are just released, because everyone is still learning them, but Ivern does seem to be another in the trend of Riot releasing underpowered champions at release. It's starting to get a little weird. Of the five champs before Ivern, I'd say four of them definitely were underpowered at release (Kled, Taliyah, Jhin, Illaoi), with the one exception being Aurelion Sol.
On October 11 2016 01:45 GrandInquisitor wrote: Champs are supposed to suffer when they are just released, because everyone is still learning them, but Ivern does seem to be another in the trend of Riot releasing underpowered champions at release. It's starting to get a little weird. Of the five champs before Ivern, I'd say four of them definitely were underpowered at release (Kled, Taliyah, Jhin, Illaoi), with the one exception being Aurelion Sol.
I'm personally okay with this. Champs can be shit on release until people figure out little tricks and stuff to make them better.
Honestly, the reason all those have been UP on release is because they kinda ruin the game when they aren't (Kled maybe not, havent seen him enough). Jihn and Aurelion Sol are among the worst champs in history when it comes to decoupling skill and results.
Sol is actually a really fun jungle champ. The e makes for some great ganks from weird angles that other champs don't do. He brings AP in a way that plays totally different than Nid and the PvE of managing the stars is more fun than a lot of other jungle farming PvE. I wouldn't mind if they tuned him more in that direction since a lot of his main problem in lane is that the stars and w for wavexlear are too good. But good waveclear isn't op in the jungle with no waves.
I feel like the last patch or two introduced this ginormous microstuttering and it is nearly unplayable for me. It is just really annoying because it fades in and out constantly so I never know how quickly my commands are going through.. -_-
On October 11 2016 01:45 GrandInquisitor wrote: Champs are supposed to suffer when they are just released, because everyone is still learning them, but Ivern does seem to be another in the trend of Riot releasing underpowered champions at release. It's starting to get a little weird. Of the five champs before Ivern, I'd say four of them definitely were underpowered at release (Kled, Taliyah, Jhin, Illaoi), with the one exception being Aurelion Sol.
On October 11 2016 01:45 GrandInquisitor wrote: Champs are supposed to suffer when they are just released, because everyone is still learning them, but Ivern does seem to be another in the trend of Riot releasing underpowered champions at release. It's starting to get a little weird. Of the five champs before Ivern, I'd say four of them definitely were underpowered at release (Kled, Taliyah, Jhin, Illaoi), with the one exception being Aurelion Sol.
I think part of it is them having really wonky kits now and so the numbers are probably undertuned because they don't want to have to hotfix a champion because it is too oppressive. Also the releases before this were all set to enter LCS a week after the live release, so they are incentivized there to also start the champion off weaker rather than overtuned.
Even with the mid-patch hotfix, Ivern seems like a massive bait. I have yet to see one be useful, except for having a really lomo kit.
On October 12 2016 06:18 JimmiC wrote: just had a game where I got first blood 5 mins in and they were able to remake despite no one being disconnected. Feel free to try it if your losing.
Have had a game where we got first blood off an invade, took all junglers buffs (dirty toplane Olaf could appearently solo blue) and they could remake despite their "afk/dced" had shopped and was level 2. I really dont understand the system.
this is the masteries I came up with. had a hard time deciding whether I should go 12 in the resolve tree instead of cunning. also not sure if double edged sword is better than feast in a 1v1. does oppressor work on blind?
I'm thinking ad/onhit teemo will be better in 1v1 but also not sure on this. ap could be pretty good with hit and run (trade Q's, disengage and his autos wont hit anyways) but I'm leading more towards sustain winning out on the aram map.
gunblade core no matter what I go something like hexdrinker / wit's end being core vs ap. merc boots (mr / tenacity vs blind) wit's end still seems good.. perhaps phantom dancer? vs ad. prob same boots or tabi if he has tons of AS
runes being 3x attack speed quints 9x scaling health seals (start at level 3 on HA, seems like the logical choice) 9x scaling MR glyphs 9x flat magic pen marks
game plan is go guardian's hammer (950 HA only item), long sword, 2 pots
then try to just shove in waves early since HA towers are weird with last hitting minions
seldom trade and sustain.
shove shove shove
standard QWE at once into maxing E->Q
feel free to give me some opinions. im ready to put the fear of satan in these kids for dat RP
edit:
oh and sum spells:
prob flash exhaust or exhaust barrier
I still like flash in 1v1's because 1) no finger flubbing due to comfort 2) some playmaking especially around health relics/chasing down people. even more so with identical champions
I could see cleanse come up if exhaust is popular and games get longer. I think it could be worth taking cleanse to remove exhaust and/or blind in a key fight.
In a 1v1 you're almost certainly going to want to go tanky AP. It's the fastest way to gain raw power due to the way item scaling works and AP Teemo isn't that bad at wave clear.
An item you might not normally consider is Rapid Firecannon. The move speed and attack speed are super useful in general. But because teemo has no abilities that have a range longer than his attack range the bonus proc range will give you the initiative in any fight you do not get ambushed. Combined with a sheen item and you can use W or R right before you attack for more burst that cannot be returned, near guaranteeing winning the fight.
Oppressor is for movement impairment, which blind is not. It work with his shrooms.
If you start with Guradian's I think you should wait for corrupting potion (huuuuge advantage for early trades) it only take 10 seconds iirc. It's the cheesy 1v1 version of the current "wait for aegis" meta on tanks in regular aram.
I'd go for hybrid reds instead, especially if you're not going full AP which I honestly think would be bad as you can just go Cowl+sustain into Visage and wear the AP variant down for the gg ez. Another alternative could be AS reds too to win the early push forcing the opponent to either tank minion damage or allow some easy chip damage. AD reds if you start with LS seems like a better option.
After some consideration LS quints would probably the best and allow you to stay in lane forever. Sustain is king when you cannot recall for health.
I think Shiv (or hurricane I suppose) would probably be the best first buys simply because you can push so much faster without using mana. Dont look to trade, look to push and chip damage get the sustain from masteries instead of additional items.
For masteries I'd go 12/7/12 if you wait for corrupting. Stash+Corruping = super good good. the 11 and 12 for Vampirism and Perserverance. Resolves and Ferocity's 12th point seem bad for 1v1.
and 18/0/12 if you dont wait for corrupting Warlord and Perserverance
or 9/17/4 For Vampirism, Percision and Recovery.
Fervor is only really worth if you look for kills, which you shouldn't - no reason to play risky when a sustain build would just do small trades and win over time.
If the opponent is going AP just grab banner and upgrade all cannons.
Hmmm, I don't like how they bind the "I want to make my allies die slower" thing to supports only. First FotM, now Locket gone for tank junglers, I hope they get something in return.
On October 13 2016 05:58 Fildun wrote: Hmmm, I don't like how they bind the "I want to make my allies die slower" thing to supports only. First FotM, now Locket gone for tank junglers, I hope they get something in return.
One of the consistent things about riot is that the jungle changes never work out how they want them to. I wouldn't worry too much.
Honestly I do like the general direction that riot have been moving the game in as far as soloq/5s are concerned. Kinda ironic this is the season I have played the least though lol.
Enter Plants. We’re introducing interactive plants into the game and spawning them with some degree of variance. These plants should give junglers - and to some degree, other players - impactful decisions to make, without tying those choices to Smite.
On October 12 2016 22:20 Jek wrote: Oppressor is for movement impairment, which blind is not. It work with his shrooms.
If you start with Guradian's I think you should wait for corrupting potion (huuuuge advantage for early trades) it only take 10 seconds iirc. It's the cheesy 1v1 version of the current "wait for aegis" meta on tanks in regular aram.
I'd go for hybrid reds instead, especially if you're not going full AP which I honestly think would be bad as you can just go Cowl+sustain into Visage and wear the AP variant down for the gg ez. Another alternative could be AS reds too to win the early push forcing the opponent to either tank minion damage or allow some easy chip damage. AD reds if you start with LS seems like a better option.
After some consideration LS quints would probably the best and allow you to stay in lane forever. Sustain is king when you cannot recall for health.
I think Shiv (or hurricane I suppose) would probably be the best first buys simply because you can push so much faster without using mana. Dont look to trade, look to push and chip damage get the sustain from masteries instead of additional items.
For masteries I'd go 12/7/12 if you wait for corrupting. Stash+Corruping = super good good. the 11 and 12 for Vampirism and Perserverance. Resolves and Ferocity's 12th point seem bad for 1v1.
and 18/0/12 if you dont wait for corrupting Warlord and Perserverance
or 9/17/4 For Vampirism, Percision and Recovery.
Fervor is only really worth if you look for kills, which you shouldn't - no reason to play risky when a sustain build would just do small trades and win over time.
If the opponent is going AP just grab banner and upgrade all cannons.
rip i tried this strat and lost
the early game was really really strong.
however the big flaw was that the other guy will always outdamage you and win the fight. so if you get slowed by 1 random shroom, he will chase you down and kill you.
also you can't poke him down or win trades since your damage sucks. he will win trades and the sustain is just playing catch up. he has his enough sustain from masteries/item/health relics.
"We want to introduce more variance between the camps, so players can have stronger preferences about which camps to prioritize, rather than merely clearing whatever is nearby and available." Normally I actually have a decent amount of faith in Riot but let me wager they severely underestimate the amount of strength variance required for this to happen.
On October 13 2016 05:58 Fildun wrote: Hmmm, I don't like how they bind the "I want to make my allies die slower" thing to supports only. First FotM, now Locket gone for tank junglers, I hope they get something in return.
One of the consistent things about riot is that the jungle changes never work out how they want them to. I wouldn't worry too much.
Honestly I do like the general direction that riot have been moving the game in as far as soloq/5s are concerned. Kinda ironic this is the season I have played the least though lol.
the only consistent thing about the jungle throughout the years are their stated goals of wanting diverse picks and wanting junglers to make lots of decisions on the fly
On October 13 2016 08:53 Scip wrote: "We want to introduce more variance between the camps, so players can have stronger preferences about which camps to prioritize, rather than merely clearing whatever is nearby and available." Normally I actually have a decent amount of faith in Riot but let me wager they severely underestimate the amount of strength variance required for this to happen.
I'm afraid that they'll make certain jungle paths mandatory for some junglers, and decreasing the depth of pathing in general. In addition its probably a pain to balance.
seems like this favors junglers who have the ability to dash/ blink or otherwise travel across walls somehow. idk how i feel about the added randomness either.
On October 13 2016 08:53 Scip wrote: "We want to introduce more variance between the camps, so players can have stronger preferences about which camps to prioritize, rather than merely clearing whatever is nearby and available." Normally I actually have a decent amount of faith in Riot but let me wager they severely underestimate the amount of strength variance required for this to happen.
On October 13 2016 09:15 ticklishmusic wrote: seems like this favors junglers who have the ability to dash/ blink or otherwise travel across walls somehow. idk how i feel about the added randomness either.
Riot making changes that favor lee sin/elise/nidalee, how could anyone have predicted this?
On October 13 2016 09:15 ticklishmusic wrote: seems like this favors junglers who have the ability to dash/ blink or otherwise travel across walls somehow. idk how i feel about the added randomness either.
Riot making changes that favor lee sin/elise/nidalee, how could anyone have predicted this?
I dunno i'd need some sort of list of the latest junglers released by riot to show their bias.
How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
On October 13 2016 14:32 Scip wrote: How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
Decent idea. I do think they need to remake the map if they want to fix the jungle. One thing they consistently fret about is the laners taxing jungle camps. Maybe they shouldn't have 3/5 camps immediately adjacent to and easily accessible from a lane.
Hell that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone because junglers actually have to make a meaningful choice between farming and being in gank/countergank position.
as a dota player who started lol just this season, ive never understood why riot insists on having the jungle as a set role. besides the fact that the game would be more similar to dota, why cant you just make it so that jungling is optional yet completely viable depending on team comps etc. i think the having rigid lanes (top/mid/adc/support/jg) really handicaps devs when trying to balance the game.
They should just give jungle camps a death passive "when this dies it deals 1 damage to its killer for every second they have been in midlane. ". Problem of midlane stealing raptors solved. Plus it would mean we probably wouldn't need to give blue to those greedy mids anymore.
Edit: on a more serious note, the Swedish forest idea actually sounds pretty good
On October 12 2016 22:20 Jek wrote: Oppressor is for movement impairment, which blind is not. It work with his shrooms.
If you start with Guradian's I think you should wait for corrupting potion (huuuuge advantage for early trades) it only take 10 seconds iirc. It's the cheesy 1v1 version of the current "wait for aegis" meta on tanks in regular aram.
I'd go for hybrid reds instead, especially if you're not going full AP which I honestly think would be bad as you can just go Cowl+sustain into Visage and wear the AP variant down for the gg ez. Another alternative could be AS reds too to win the early push forcing the opponent to either tank minion damage or allow some easy chip damage. AD reds if you start with LS seems like a better option.
After some consideration LS quints would probably the best and allow you to stay in lane forever. Sustain is king when you cannot recall for health.
I think Shiv (or hurricane I suppose) would probably be the best first buys simply because you can push so much faster without using mana. Dont look to trade, look to push and chip damage get the sustain from masteries instead of additional items.
For masteries I'd go 12/7/12 if you wait for corrupting. Stash+Corruping = super good good. the 11 and 12 for Vampirism and Perserverance. Resolves and Ferocity's 12th point seem bad for 1v1.
and 18/0/12 if you dont wait for corrupting Warlord and Perserverance
or 9/17/4 For Vampirism, Percision and Recovery.
Fervor is only really worth if you look for kills, which you shouldn't - no reason to play risky when a sustain build would just do small trades and win over time.
If the opponent is going AP just grab banner and upgrade all cannons.
rip i tried this strat and lost
the early game was really really strong.
however the big flaw was that the other guy will always outdamage you and win the fight. so if you get slowed by 1 random shroom, he will chase you down and kill you.
also you can't poke him down or win trades since your damage sucks. he will win trades and the sustain is just playing catch up. he has his enough sustain from masteries/item/health relics.
So they're removing raptor buff, spirit wolf and ability to detect invisible champions from pink wards, that's not good. I don't think Scryer's Bloom is a good enough compensation. Dark times are coming.
and what they actually do is taking the game out of balance for 3/4 of the new season, then at the last couple of months of the season the game will finally start reaching a balanced state, there will be no more must bans, people will know what shit each shit is doing, will stabilize their paths, builds, farming and roaming patterns and then rito will turn the game upside down. Thats what they do
On October 13 2016 14:32 Scip wrote: How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
Decent idea. I do think they need to remake the map if they want to fix the jungle. One thing they consistently fret about is the laners taxing jungle camps. Maybe they shouldn't have 3/5 camps immediately adjacent to and easily accessible from a lane.
Hell that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone because junglers actually have to make a meaningful choice between farming and being in gank/countergank position.
One idea I had for making ganks more viable was giving baseline smite a debuff where killing a smited opponent gave kill gold to all assists. Not sure if that is actually a good idea though
On October 13 2016 14:32 Scip wrote: How about this: remake the whole map split each jungle camp into 2 different ones: let's say next to wolves you'd have like a really tanky turtle that dealt very little damage hitting 1 part of the camp doesn't aggro the other part as soon as you kill anyone from one half of the camp, the entire second part of the camp runs away, disappearing giving no gold and exp.
This allows for more jungle diversity, allowing both AoE and single target junglers to kill the parts of the camp with a lot of small dudes/one big dude respectively, it allows for both tanky and low sustain junglers by providing both camps with high hp low dmg and low hp high damage in the end giving more or less the same rewards to everyone
and rename it from jungle to the swedish forest embrace the equality of outcome
Decent idea. I do think they need to remake the map if they want to fix the jungle. One thing they consistently fret about is the laners taxing jungle camps. Maybe they shouldn't have 3/5 camps immediately adjacent to and easily accessible from a lane.
Hell that even kills 2 birds with 1 stone because junglers actually have to make a meaningful choice between farming and being in gank/countergank position.
One idea I had for making ganks more viable was giving baseline smite a debuff where killing a smited opponent gave kill gold to all assists. Not sure if that is actually a good idea though
The problem is making junglers more different from laners is simply not the way they should be going. Jungle items that gave similar debuffs to champions on smite have consistently been exploited by lane champions, then nerfed (thus making junglers even weaker relative to lanes). I'd still argue that the Gank vs. Farm balance is still tilted towards ganking (if you don't suck), even if it has become less so. So its kind of a solution in search of a problem.
I don't get why they think jungle pathing is currently stale and boring anyway.
How I path through the jungle changes game to game, match up to match up, enemy decision to enemy decision.
Having creative yet efficient jungle pathing, and timing currently is the difference between being Meteos and Reignover.
I do think understand there design goals, they are trying to change things to fix what isn't broken at all. Removing wraith smite nerfs ganking junglers quite hard as well.
One thing that has been bothering me is stated in the introduction comments to this plant idea. One of the things that was said is that the jungle is too easily "solvable". I take it to mean that people find the best actions too quickly.
Quoted From Xypherous
I mean, if the feature is bad - I'd hope we remove it rather than keep it in the game.
I get that you don't want it to be implemented in the first place - but given 'not doing anything in the fear of pissing people off' and 'taking a shot and reverting once it's a bad idea' - I think we have to go for taking the shot.
The current game has problems in that things constantly get solved too quickly. We've tried a lot of things with mixed levels of success and we need to keep experimenting on this in whatever form. I'm not saying plants are perfect - they're just the latest thing that has had pretty good internal feedback that we want to see if it works on a larger scale.
Please keep giving the feedback if things are working or not - because at the end of the day, we want to try bold things to keep you guys engaged and also have the ability to pull mistakes if they're clearly not working.
Saying that things are too easily "solvable" seems more like an issue that certain numbers are always clearly better than others. With all the data they have onhand, why not do better averaging of said numbers? For instance lets take an ADC autoing. Let say there are 2 ways that an ADC are being played, a kiting style and a set and fire style. The kiting style would want more attackspeed and the set style wants bigger damage per hit. There has to be a way to make it so that the DPS is more or less the same while also promoting the style a player wants to play as.
EDIT:
Also wasn't it Riot's position that they wanted league more casual friendly as compared to say DotA or HotS? What's wrong with things being quickly solvable?
But it isn't solveable... otherwise there would be no discernable differencell between any two junglers of the same tier playing the same champ.
But Peanut, Svenskeren and Bengi wouldall choose vastly different pathing and choices on Lee Sin despite all being good junglers.
They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I can farm for speed, farm safely, farm for good ganking timings, farm to fuck up the other junglers. Depending on me as a player my choice as a jungler is going to be different.
Yeah and removing wolf smite nerfs primary invading counter jungleing junglers (not so many of those these days.
I think lack of golem buff will reduce clear ability more than they think. They say they want to tune for not having it, but a lot of off meta picks really leaned on it heavily. For example Sol jungle can use it to land stars and qs and kog jungle can lay down tons of stun with the w attack speed boost. Now maybe riot doesn't care about off meta picks, but if you are banging the champion diversity drum at every chance you get you should be encouraging rather than limiting off meta picks.
On October 14 2016 03:17 lilwisper wrote: One thing that has been bothering me is stated in the introduction comments to this plant idea. One of the things that was said is that the jungle is too easily "solvable". I take it to mean that people find the best actions too quickly.
I mean, if the feature is bad - I'd hope we remove it rather than keep it in the game.
I get that you don't want it to be implemented in the first place - but given 'not doing anything in the fear of pissing people off' and 'taking a shot and reverting once it's a bad idea' - I think we have to go for taking the shot.
The current game has problems in that things constantly get solved too quickly. We've tried a lot of things with mixed levels of success and we need to keep experimenting on this in whatever form. I'm not saying plants are perfect - they're just the latest thing that has had pretty good internal feedback that we want to see if it works on a larger scale.
Please keep giving the feedback if things are working or not - because at the end of the day, we want to try bold things to keep you guys engaged and also have the ability to pull mistakes if they're clearly not working.
Saying that things are too easily "solvable" seems more like an issue that certain numbers are always clearly better than others. With all the data they have onhand, why not do better averaging of said numbers? For instance lets take an ADC autoing. Let say there are 2 ways that an ADC are being played, a kiting style and a set and fire style. The kiting style would want more attackspeed and the set style wants bigger damage per hit. There has to be a way to make it so that the DPS is more or less the same while also promoting the style a player wants to play as.
EDIT:
Also wasn't it Riot's position that they wanted league more casual friendly as compared to say DotA or HotS? What's wrong with things being quickly solvable?
You have one or two champions who are the best at style X and one or two who are the best at style Y and 20 other champions nobody wants to pick unless they don't care about efficiency. Even if Riot gets really lucky and you somehow get three styles viable you still end up with a very small pool of optimal picks. Champion diversity is casual friendly (everyone gets to play their waifu).
On October 14 2016 03:29 General_Winter wrote: Yeah and removing wolf smite nerfs primary invading counter jungleing junglers (not so many of those these days.
I think lack of golem buff will reduce clear ability more than they think. They say they want to tune for not having it, but a lot of off meta picks really leaned on it heavily. For example Sol jungle can use it to land stars and qs and kog jungle can lay down tons of stun with the w attack speed boost. Now maybe riot doesn't care about off meta picks, but if you are banging the champion diversity drum at every chance you get you should be encouraging rather than limiting off meta picks.
Every smite now gives red smite though.
Which I think will offset it.
I'm sad though, I like the spot the jungle is in. Riot hates junglers.
On October 14 2016 06:21 cLutZ wrote: No, they hate that there is only 4 competitive junglers per patch. So does everyone who watches pro play.
They need to add more things for junglers to do for that to change. There are only so many different ways to gank and teamfight. Jungle had some more diversity when they could also be vision specialists. As it is they might just shift the 4 viable junglers, otherwise everyone will just pick the most effective at the couple things that junglers get to do.
I sometimes wonder does Riot or anyone else have an idea what are the conditions for a balanced jungle with big variety of pics. I mean not how exactly to achieve it, but what should be there?
For example if all champions clear with similar speed (doesn;t matter if this is actually achievable) and can clear 3 camps per 3 minutes this will bring us balanced jungle with many choices there.
Does Riot have this idea, do they know exactly what they wanna achieve there? Because, saying we want variety and balance is too broad, however, putting some plants or other shit there is too detailed, for any project to be successful, first step is to know exactly what you wanna achieve. "What" is the critical question you wanna answer, not how, not when, not where or who, but WHAT
reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like
On October 14 2016 09:02 Scip wrote: reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like
I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records.
Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500
so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances)
only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500.
On October 14 2016 09:02 Scip wrote: reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like
I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records.
Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500
so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances)
only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500.
Oh shit half the junglers have losing records it's almost as if it's mathematically impossible for all the junglers to have winning records
On October 14 2016 09:02 Scip wrote: reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like
I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records.
Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500
so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances)
only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500.
Oh shit half the junglers have losing records it's almost as if it's mathematically impossible for all the junglers to have winning records
3 have losing records 2 are tied and 2 are winning (with one of those 2 being the least popular of the 7)
That points to people picking champs that don't work repeatedly, probably because rek sai WAS the top pick in the past
there is really only 1 winning jungler choice, and there is a reason she is pick/ban at 100%.
On October 14 2016 09:02 Scip wrote: reksai olaf skarner nidalee elise graves that's 6 if you want to go full china you can go kha'zix, zac or hecarim too and that's just champions that were picked at worlds it's not unreasonable to say there might be pickable junglers that none of the teams at worlds particularly like
I mean of the first six, Rek sai, Elise, Graves all have losing records.
Nidalee and Skarner are the only winning records, and Lee an olaf are .500
so while there are 7 common jungler picks (if you call skarner common at picked/banned 6 times of 50 chances)
only two are winning more than losing, and only two more are at .500.
Oh shit half the junglers have losing records it's almost as if it's mathematically impossible for all the junglers to have winning records
3 have losing records 2 are tied and 2 are winning (with one of those 2 being the least popular of the 7)
That points to people picking champs that don't work repeatedly, probably because rek sai WAS the top pick in the past
there is really only 1 winning jungler choice, and there is a reason she is pick/ban at 100%.
dude like literally regardless of the state of the jungle about half the junglers will have negative winrate that's not an argument for anything also 40% winrate is hardly "does not work repeatedly". They also work repeatedly
On October 14 2016 10:44 Scip wrote: like literally regardless of the state of the jungle about half the junglers will have negative winrate that's not an argument for anything
I mean thats half. this is literally all but 1 and the cheese picks, and maybe skarner.
On October 14 2016 11:00 cLutZ wrote: The worlds patch is great for the jungle (except Nidalee). However, its a historical exception, and still not even at S2 levels.
As someone that pretty much just watches the game, champion variety is absolutely the thing that makes you want to watch. Having 'solved' jungle routes isn't a problem, having a tiny, incredibly stale 'viable' champion pool is.
Every competitive jungler clears well, duels well, ganks well early and transitions to late game off tank well (Yes that's a generalisation, but not far off). All the competitive jungle champs are generalists and all do variations of the same formula. Riot just needs to accept this and change the non-generalist champs to be competent laners, like Mao'Kai and Nautilus.
Also I love how they mention the satchel seed helping no mobility skill champs. Mobile champs benefit just as much, and can now get into Baron/Dragon to steal without Flash or their dash skill.
On October 14 2016 11:00 cLutZ wrote: The worlds patch is great for the jungle (except Nidalee). However, its a historical exception, and still not even at S2 levels.
Let's not talk about S2 jungle.
Give me my GP10 and perma oracles back already.
It feels strange to me that they try to balance the jungle around pro play, even though they always say they don't want to do that. Jungle variety and balance in soloq is very high at the moment, gone are the days where there were 6 jungle bans.
On October 14 2016 17:09 JazzVortical wrote: As someone that pretty much just watches the game, champion variety is absolutely the thing that makes you want to watch. Having 'solved' jungle routes isn't a problem, having a tiny, incredibly stale 'viable' champion pool is.
Every competitive jungler clears well, duels well, ganks well early and transitions to late game off tank well (Yes that's a generalisation, but not far off). All the competitive jungle champs are generalists and all do variations of the same formula. Riot just needs to accept this and change the non-generalist champs to be competent laners, like Mao'Kai and Nautilus.
Also I love how they mention the satchel seed helping no mobility skill champs. Mobile champs benefit just as much, and can now get into Baron/Dragon to steal without Flash or their dash skill.
Don't forget the non-generalists that get thrown in the dumpster like Sejuani.
Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote: Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds.
About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
Fun facts: There were 4 Zac bans and 1 Zac pick in the group stage, all of them in week 1 of group B. IMay played Zac and that champion was banned only against IMay and C9.
Yeah. Zac is a great example. Meteos showed some good stuff with him, but meteos is not world class. If someone like Clearlove or MLXG spent preseason downtime doing the work to really learn the ins and outs of that champion, they would be able to win games with it.
On October 15 2016 03:29 General_Winter wrote: Yeah. Zac is a great example. Meteos showed some good stuff with him, but meteos is not world class. If someone like Clearlove or MLXG spent preseason downtime doing the work to really learn the ins and outs of that champion, they would be able to win games with it.
I really think it's the 4 other teammates that stop Meteos from winning with Zac
ZAC is a good desperation gamble pick. I think Eve, Khazix, Hecarim, Rengar, and Rammus also can be. I don't think those are picks that you can go into a series where the other team expects it in P&B and has scrimmed against the pick, and expect the jungler to not be heavy.
On October 15 2016 04:24 cLutZ wrote: ZAC is a good desperation gamble pick. I think Eve, Khazix, Hecarim, Rengar, and Rammus also can be. I don't think those are picks that you can go into a series where the other team expects it in P&B and has scrimmed against the pick, and expect the jungler to not be heavy.
Rengar and Eve are too feast/famine at the moment based on vision control, ZAC to a lesser extent has the same issues, Rammus/Kha have early clear problems that are too exploitable by Lee, Elise, Nidalee, and Hecarim's ganks just aren't that great, i don't really like his earlygame counterganks.
On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote: People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community.
obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have
On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote: People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community.
obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have
How would you know? They haven't even announced everythingi that's going to be in it, they just said "these things will be in it, full list to be announced". It's obviously not yet set in stone, they even mentioned they just started working on it and they'll add features based on initial testing and input from players.
On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote: People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community.
obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have
How would you know? They haven't even announced everythingi that's going to be in it, they just said "these things will be in it, full list to be announced". It's obviously not yet set in stone, they even mentioned they just started working on it and they'll add features based on initial testing and input from players.
I actually like this change, at the moment it's all about AoE clear since it's a million times faster. Could see it add some diversity (better known as Nunu). It'll probably make Nidalee even more P/B since she does both single target and AoE very well.
Anyone wanna bet against that the keystone nerf is going to be fervor?
On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote: Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds.
About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
I'm a terrible player, but I think Zac is strong in this meta mostly because he provides what you want out of a jungler for many comps. This meta is basically two comps: Carry poke/engage top, Tank Engage jungle, Any mid, pressure bottom AND Tank top, Carry Jungle, Any mid, Engage Bottom. In the first comp, Zac provides a bit better option for safe engage than any of the other options because he scales as a full tank and doesn't require other help (aka Karma Mid/Support) the way Reksai/Olaf/Skarner do. He's also not as flash/ghost reliant as the other tank options. He has an added bonus that his preferred build path synergizes with the ideal counter items (Cinderhulk -> Spirit Visage) against opponent strength.
bond of stone - small buff. If any of you played WoW during WotLK, raidwide bubble-DS on a holy paladin was like -10% damage taken for the entire raid on a 2min? CD. Can be frighteningly overpowered if overtuned.
fervor - changed - Remove stack cap, decrease damage per stack by a lot, now increases all spell damage done by 0.2% per stack. As with TL, pets don't proc, and AoE DoT's only on first application
thunderlord's - pets no longer proc it, AoE-DoT's only proc on first hit. Otherwise I think it's fine. DFT - probably decrease AD scaling. Jhin is the single champ I can think of that uses it on AD, and it's horrifically broken. It's fine on AP's I think.
SotA might be a bit ubiquitous because it's the best choice almost all the time on junglers. Possibly nerf for jungle, buff for lane?
If they are changing keystones, I'd like to see them change the ferocity keystones to effect large jungle mobs and not just champions. That would be a big help to attack speed junglers and would open up a lot more choice. Right now there is really only one jungle specific keystone.
On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote: Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds.
About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
Jayce is the perfect example. The Western teams went to Korean solo queue, saw all the Koreans playing Jayce, and assumed that Jayce was in the meta and important. But they don't know why it's in the meta, or how to play him properly. The SKT v C9 week 2 game beautifully summarizes it: flip the teamcomps and I guarantee that C9 gets engaged on and loses the game despite an initial gold lead. (See C9 v SSG game 2.) But SKT is good enough to never, ever get engaged on, and abuse Jayce's strengths that way.
On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote: Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds.
About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
Jayce is the perfect example. The Western teams went to Korean solo queue, saw all the Koreans playing Jayce, and assumed that Jayce was in the meta and important. But they don't know why it's in the meta, or how to play him properly. The SKT v C9 week 2 game beautifully summarizes it: flip the teamcomps and I guarantee that C9 gets engaged on and loses the game despite an initial gold lead. (See C9 v SSG game 2.) But SKT is good enough to never, ever get engaged on, and abuse Jayce's strengths that way.
I dunno, Hauntzer's Jayce was pretty good. Just hard to carry the game when the rest of your team is dropping the ball.
If its the same game I recall, Hauntzer's Jayce did exactly what its supposed to, but illustrates why it wasn't a good pick. The Jayce problem is that he needs to be to fights early so he can poke with QE, but as a toplaner you also want him to splitpush and TP in late. Its a teamwide lane assignment problem that is very hard to solve.
Not so hard to solve, I mean it should not be solvable, because this is the drawback of Jayce pick, otherwise he would have been too perfect => perma ban => nerf out of existence
sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote: sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
It's mostly about how much distance you need to cover, with damage being secondary. If you need a lot of distance even with the flash, you'll have to fully charge and flash near the end of the dash.
Takes practice, and good latency. You will look like an idiot sometimes.
Unless you mean flashing to start the dash in a different spot, but in the same direction, in which case you need to let go and flash literally a frame later.
On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote: sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
you charge the Q, flash then let go of the Q.
afaik there was a change the prevented you from actually flashing at the end of the Q a while ago
Doesn't Flash count as activating/casting something else and thus reset Q as if you tried to recall or something? Never tried in that order because I was afraid it'd go that way.
On October 18 2016 03:56 Alaric wrote: Doesn't Flash count as activating/casting something else and thus reset Q as if you tried to recall or something? Never tried in that order because I was afraid it'd go that way.
Its like the J4 Flag and Drag Flash. You can extend the range of the Q by flashing while moving.
On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote: sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
you charge the Q, flash then let go of the Q.
afaik there was a change the prevented you from actually flashing at the end of the Q a while ago
my god and i wasted 60 minutes trying to Q , Q flash cuz sometimes it worked (think i flashed before pressing Q 2nd time without noticing it) holy fuck im tilted Q flash Q was the proper way of doing it works every time now -.-
Uh... if you're talking about pressing Q, then you're not using smartcast I assume? Maybe it doesn't behave in the same way, I'd have to try. Not sure if Flashing has an influence over spells where smartcast makes you hold a button while you flash.
On October 18 2016 18:30 kongoline wrote: she stops dash without knock back effect
This is actually kind of confusing, since you can obviously Taunt-Flash on Shen or Body Slam-Flash on Gragas. Maybe it's because those aren't charged abilities like Vi Q? Zac can't flash during Elastic Slingshot (or at least I assume he can't because I've never seen anyone do it). Are there any other self-moving charged movement abilities?
On October 18 2016 18:30 kongoline wrote: she stops dash without knock back effect
This is actually kind of confusing, since you can obviously Taunt-Flash on Shen or Body Slam-Flash on Gragas. Maybe it's because those aren't charged abilities like Vi Q? Zac can't flash during Elastic Slingshot (or at least I assume he can't because I've never seen anyone do it). Are there any other self-moving charged movement abilities?
In new patch notes they are reigning in Nunu a bit. I played against him last night and it was completely bonkers. Even post nerfs I think he may still be nuts.
EPT
