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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad.
Like a good example imo is Zac
Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water.
As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds.
About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
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Yeah. Zac is a great example. Meteos showed some good stuff with him, but meteos is not world class. If someone like Clearlove or MLXG spent preseason downtime doing the work to really learn the ins and outs of that champion, they would be able to win games with it.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 15 2016 03:29 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. Zac is a great example. Meteos showed some good stuff with him, but meteos is not world class. If someone like Clearlove or MLXG spent preseason downtime doing the work to really learn the ins and outs of that champion, they would be able to win games with it.
I really think it's the 4 other teammates that stop Meteos from winning with Zac
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ZAC is a good desperation gamble pick. I think Eve, Khazix, Hecarim, Rengar, and Rammus also can be. I don't think those are picks that you can go into a series where the other team expects it in P&B and has scrimmed against the pick, and expect the jungler to not be heavy.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On October 15 2016 04:24 cLutZ wrote:
ZAC is a good desperation gamble pick. I think Eve, Khazix, Hecarim, Rengar, and Rammus also can be. I don't think those are picks that you can go into a series where the other team expects it in P&B and has scrimmed against the pick, and expect the jungler to not be heavy.
why
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Rengar and Eve are too feast/famine at the moment based on vision control, ZAC to a lesser extent has the same issues, Rammus/Kha have early clear problems that are too exploitable by Lee, Elise, Nidalee, and Hecarim's ganks just aren't that great, i don't really like his earlygame counterganks.
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Now when players can just tell me to go back to using the practice tool how can I go play soloq? The pressure is too much. I think this is it boys.
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People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community.
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If you can enter with multiple people, I think that's actually pretty useful to practice mechanics.
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If I can go back to level 1 and reset jungle camps I will be thrilled. Waiting the 2 minutes for the camps to spawn plus load screen is terrible.
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On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote:
People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community.
obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have
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On October 15 2016 08:47 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote:
People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community. obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have
How would you know? They haven't even announced everythingi that's going to be in it, they just said "these things will be in it, full list to be announced". It's obviously not yet set in stone, they even mentioned they just started working on it and they'll add features based on initial testing and input from players.
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On October 15 2016 09:28 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 08:47 Frolossus wrote:On October 15 2016 06:34 Jek wrote:
People complain about the lack of sandbox mode, Riot finally adds it and people aren't happy. League community best community. obviously it's not as feature complete as people want but it's already loads better than what we have How would you know? They haven't even announced everythingi that's going to be in it, they just said "these things will be in it, full list to be announced". It's obviously not yet set in stone, they even mentioned they just started working on it and they'll add features based on initial testing and input from players.
It's single player so it's immediately useless.
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It's immediately less useful than if it were multiplayer, but mostly for a fringe portion of the community.
The hyperbole is laughable.
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Only issue I have with the sandbox/practice mode is the amount of Riven mains it'll spawn. I hate that champion with a passion. >
EDIT:
Appearently they are going to make buffs easier for single target junglers (hello Nunu) and the small camps easier for AoE junglers.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EBL2XV0A-riot-a-few-questions-myself-about-next-pre-season?comment=0000
I actually like this change, at the moment it's all about AoE clear since it's a million times faster. Could see it add some diversity (better known as Nunu). It'll probably make Nidalee even more P/B since she does both single target and AoE very well.
Anyone wanna bet against that the keystone nerf is going to be fervor?
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On October 15 2016 03:00 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad. Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds. About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
I'm a terrible player, but I think Zac is strong in this meta mostly because he provides what you want out of a jungler for many comps. This meta is basically two comps: Carry poke/engage top, Tank Engage jungle, Any mid, pressure bottom AND Tank top, Carry Jungle, Any mid, Engage Bottom. In the first comp, Zac provides a bit better option for safe engage than any of the other options because he scales as a full tank and doesn't require other help (aka Karma Mid/Support) the way Reksai/Olaf/Skarner do. He's also not as flash/ghost reliant as the other tank options. He has an added bonus that his preferred build path synergizes with the ideal counter items (Cinderhulk -> Spirit Visage) against opponent strength.
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keystone thoughts.
bond of stone - small buff. If any of you played WoW during WotLK, raidwide bubble-DS on a holy paladin was like -10% damage taken for the entire raid on a 2min? CD. Can be frighteningly overpowered if overtuned.
fervor - changed - Remove stack cap, decrease damage per stack by a lot, now increases all spell damage done by 0.2% per stack. As with TL, pets don't proc, and AoE DoT's only on first application
thunderlord's - pets no longer proc it, AoE-DoT's only proc on first hit. Otherwise I think it's fine.
DFT - probably decrease AD scaling. Jhin is the single champ I can think of that uses it on AD, and it's horrifically broken. It's fine on AP's I think.
SotA might be a bit ubiquitous because it's the best choice almost all the time on junglers. Possibly nerf for jungle, buff for lane?
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If they are changing keystones, I'd like to see them change the ferocity keystones to effect large jungle mobs and not just champions. That would be a big help to attack speed junglers and would open up a lot more choice. Right now there is really only one jungle specific keystone.
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EPT
