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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 15 2016 03:00 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad. Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds. About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions.
Jayce is the perfect example. The Western teams went to Korean solo queue, saw all the Koreans playing Jayce, and assumed that Jayce was in the meta and important. But they don't know why it's in the meta, or how to play him properly. The SKT v C9 week 2 game beautifully summarizes it: flip the teamcomps and I guarantee that C9 gets engaged on and loses the game despite an initial gold lead. (See C9 v SSG game 2.) But SKT is good enough to never, ever get engaged on, and abuse Jayce's strengths that way.
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On October 16 2016 08:15 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2016 03:00 Scip wrote:On October 15 2016 00:26 General_Winter wrote:
Yeah. It's also possible that there are a lot more viable junglers than we see.
If a coach tells a player "just play the champs peanut does" and a player does it but loses because he isn't as good as peanut people will blame the player. If a coach tells a player to play a bunch of 'off meta' champs and the player does and winds up losing because they are not as good as peanut people will blame the coach even though in both cases the losses were the player's fault.
Since coaches only really get blamed when they color outside the lines, there are strong institutional incentives for coaches to cluster champion picks to a much greater extent than game balance actually warrants.
So it's hard to draw firm conclusions about the number of viable junglers from the evidence we see. It's probably more than 6-10 and proably less than 20 [citation needed]. That's not too bad. Like a good example imo is Zac Apparently, if you're really fucking good at Zac like Meteos is, you can absolutely make him work. Sure C9 didn't beat Samsung with it, but if they were to win that game, it would have been thanks to that Zac performance ONLY, as everyone else was feeding a storm while Meteos was the only one holding his team above water. As you say, I think it's not unreasonable to say there might be junglers that with OTP level of skill (like Meteos has on Zac) would be an absolutely viable choice at Worlds. About the coach thing though, I don't think it's to avoid blame or avoid being sacked or anything like that, I think that coaches just don't exactly know how off-meta champions work often, because well, very few people do. Pretty much only people who play those champions. Jayce is the perfect example. The Western teams went to Korean solo queue, saw all the Koreans playing Jayce, and assumed that Jayce was in the meta and important. But they don't know why it's in the meta, or how to play him properly. The SKT v C9 week 2 game beautifully summarizes it: flip the teamcomps and I guarantee that C9 gets engaged on and loses the game despite an initial gold lead. (See C9 v SSG game 2.) But SKT is good enough to never, ever get engaged on, and abuse Jayce's strengths that way.
I dunno, Hauntzer's Jayce was pretty good. Just hard to carry the game when the rest of your team is dropping the ball.
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If its the same game I recall, Hauntzer's Jayce did exactly what its supposed to, but illustrates why it wasn't a good pick. The Jayce problem is that he needs to be to fights early so he can poke with QE, but as a toplaner you also want him to splitpush and TP in late. Its a teamwide lane assignment problem that is very hard to solve.
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Not so hard to solve, I mean it should not be solvable, because this is the drawback of Jayce pick, otherwise he would have been too perfect => perma ban => nerf out of existence
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sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
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On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote:
sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
It's mostly about how much distance you need to cover, with damage being secondary. If you need a lot of distance even with the flash, you'll have to fully charge and flash near the end of the dash.
Takes practice, and good latency. You will look like an idiot sometimes.
Unless you mean flashing to start the dash in a different spot, but in the same direction, in which case you need to let go and flash literally a frame later.
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On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote:
sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me
you charge the Q, flash then let go of the Q.
afaik there was a change the prevented you from actually flashing at the end of the Q a while ago
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Doesn't Flash count as activating/casting something else and thus reset Q as if you tried to recall or something? Never tried in that order because I was afraid it'd go that way.
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On October 18 2016 03:56 Alaric wrote:
Doesn't Flash count as activating/casting something else and thus reset Q as if you tried to recall or something? Never tried in that order because I was afraid it'd go that way.
Its like the J4 Flag and Drag Flash. You can extend the range of the Q by flashing while moving.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That's different. I don't think people are talking about Q -> Q -> Flash, but Q -> Flash -> Q.
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Varus and Xerath can do something similar with their Qs for long range snipes if I'm not mistaken.
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On October 18 2016 03:52 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2016 16:57 kongoline wrote:
sandbox cant come soon enough, im trying to learn Vi and i cant do Q flash to save my life, dont know why im failing it so hard never had problems on shen,gragas etc think i need step by step guide for it (do i need to be fully charged for it to work ?) waiting 3minutes for flash cd to practice it in custom game is killing me you charge the Q, flash then let go of the Q. afaik there was a change the prevented you from actually flashing at the end of the Q a while ago
my god and i wasted 60 minutes trying to Q , Q flash cuz sometimes it worked (think i flashed before pressing Q 2nd time without noticing it) holy fuck im tilted Q flash Q was the proper way of doing it works every time now -.-
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So whats gonna happen if you do a second Q right before flashing? Nothing?
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she stops dash without knock back effect
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Uh... if you're talking about pressing Q, then you're not using smartcast I assume?
Maybe it doesn't behave in the same way, I'd have to try. Not sure if Flashing has an influence over spells where smartcast makes you hold a button while you flash.
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I can't imagine using smartcast on Vi Q, Zac E or Poppy R. Felt so awkward I disabled it immediately.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 18 2016 18:30 kongoline wrote:
she stops dash without knock back effect
This is actually kind of confusing, since you can obviously Taunt-Flash on Shen or Body Slam-Flash on Gragas. Maybe it's because those aren't charged abilities like Vi Q? Zac can't flash during Elastic Slingshot (or at least I assume he can't because I've never seen anyone do it). Are there any other self-moving charged movement abilities?
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On October 19 2016 00:26 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2016 18:30 kongoline wrote:
she stops dash without knock back effect This is actually kind of confusing, since you can obviously Taunt-Flash on Shen or Body Slam-Flash on Gragas. Maybe it's because those aren't charged abilities like Vi Q? Zac can't flash during Elastic Slingshot (or at least I assume he can't because I've never seen anyone do it). Are there any other self-moving charged movement abilities?
Riot needed it.
Just for Vi. Shrug.
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In new patch notes they are reigning in Nunu a bit. I played against him last night and it was completely bonkers. Even post nerfs I think he may still be nuts.
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EPT
