|
On November 05 2015 14:22 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote:
Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part. ... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise. @bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such.
I feel like you only watched worlds to be able to make such a statement.
Dat bard tho. Whyyyyyyy
|
People sure seem to like to play down DL in this thread lol. There is no way he wasn't top 3 adc in the world S2 and while he has had his ups and downs he has always maintained at least top 4-6 adc in the west.
|
I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
|
On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote:
I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
|
I miss vardags
Id say top west adc would be sneaky > niels > freeze > dlift/rekkles > forgiven
Thats recent performance based though otherwise id put forgiven much higher and rekkles lower.
|
In which aspect of the game Sneaky is better then Niels?
|
Say what, you tell me which aspect of the game Niels is better at and then I know what aspect of the game is.
|
Niels:
- wider champion pool: effective on all types of adcs
- trading/laning phase
- decision making
- positioning in team fights
|
On November 05 2015 15:02 North2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2015 14:22 Zato-1 wrote:On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote:
Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part. ... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise. @bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such. I feel like you only watched worlds to be able to make such a statement. Dat bard tho. Whyyyyyyy
I feel like you only watched regular season to make such a statement. Dat Blitzcrank into Kennen.
Real talk though, Aphro is an excellent player but he's had issues in playoffs and other big games throughout his career. That's definitely a factor you have to take into account when evaluating him. Worlds was just yet another example. He's still a very valuable player, I wouldn't say HSGG is crazy for picking him (if it really was a simple Aphro or DL choice (I seriously doubt it was)) but suggesting Aphro has "way more value" than DL in terms of skill is way off base.
On November 05 2015 14:36 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 06:02 Amarok wrote:
Never mind Forgiven fell off hugely when the meta shifted going into playoffs. It goes back to what I said about DL being adaptable. In the second half of his career DL has been perfectly happy playing what the team needed, and/or what the meta required. Forgiven looked great on Lucian and Graves but couldn't transition to a more supportive meta or a team where he wasn't #1 farm priority. That's a big black mark imo.
The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player. I honestly think Forg1ven can be a top 3 adc in the world if he played more champions. If the meta is in his favor he's easily top 3 in the world. mechanically, he and bjergsen are the best players in the west and the only ones I'd put money on to beat out Korean players in their positions.
Yeah completely agree with this. While I'd have DL as all time greatest western ADC right now it wouldn't surprise me if it was Forgiven in a few years time. So many of his fundamentals are top notch (mechanics, laning, positioning) really he only needs to improve his versatility and probably attitude (though it's hard for me to say as I don't know the guy).
|
Niels has been in half a competitive season outside of the CS, Sneaky has been around in three full seasons.
Niels is probably marginally better at the moment, but I'd pick up Sneaky 7 or 8 times out of 10 if given the choice.
It's a similar case with Dlift in comparison to any non-Sneaky/Rekkles western ADC right now. Aphro either is an S-tier motivator/team captain, or HSGG didn't think this through. Given history, I know what I'd go with, but I think it's possible Aphro could actually be that valuable behind the scenes.
|
Aphro played pretty damn well for having an toxic teammate as adc haha
no seriously, i think aphros bad worlds performance could very well be caused by doublelift.
|
|
|
On November 06 2015 08:20 TitusVI wrote:
Aphro played pretty damn well for having an toxic teammate as adc haha
no seriously, i think aphros bad worlds performance could very well be caused by doublelift.
This seems suuuper farfetched to me. Everything points to Dlift's "bringing the team down" problem being ameliorated over time, and if Aphro played like shit at Worlds due to having one negative teammate then I have to bring Aphro's mental fortitude into question.
Aphro HAS been very good to be sure, easily #1 Support NA at times, but lately he just hasn't shown up. Recent-form Aphro has been pretty mediocre, even for NA standards.
By contrast, recent-form Doublelift places him as #1 NA IMO, yes better than Sneaky. Not as versatile as Niels so not #1 in the West, but still really good.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On November 06 2015 08:22 krndandaman wrote:
I wish forgiven actually played kalista. it seems like such a forgiven-esque champ. wreck lane and snowball the shit out of it
You're speaking about guy who didn't play Sivir when Sivir and Forg1ven's alliance was probably assembled in heaven.
But yea, if it's right, Hotshot not only lost 80% of his fanbase, but he probably is going to lose Aphromoo as well, if not in Spring, then before Summer split.
|
I forgot to respond but I think Sneaky is better at everything you listed orzeu. Hooray for league discussion.
|
|
|
Because it would be TOO EASY. Forgiven literally XJ9.
|
Forgiven's a bit overly opinionated about design, I think. Too obstinate in his habits for his own good, which is why I struggle to rate him at all. He could want to play the next big ADC meta and clean house or he could keep playing the nonsense he wants to and be bottom-tier.
|
On November 06 2015 09:43 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 09:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On November 06 2015 08:22 krndandaman wrote:
I wish forgiven actually played kalista. it seems like such a forgiven-esque champ. wreck lane and snowball the shit out of it You're speaking about guy who didn't play Sivir when Sivir and Forg1ven's alliance was probably assembled in heaven. But yea, if it's right, Hotshot not only lost 80% of his fanbase, but he probably is going to lose Aphromoo as well, if not in Spring, then before Summer split. I mean as silly as it is I can KINDA understand sivir since she's really boring and isn't very lane dominant. however kalista seems like forg1ven's kind of champion so it makes no sense to me.
A huge part of his strength is how insanely good at sidestepping skillshots he is. He might just really not like how much more "restrictive" your movement is on kalista.
You'll regularly see him making *tiny* sidesteps while teamfighting, without even impacting his dps at all, to dodge things. If you're used to being able to rely on doing that I could see how kalista would be absolutely horrible to play.
There's also the fact he's eternally stuck with teammates he thinks are trash. So him not wanting to play sivir, (and not wanting to have to rely so much on your support like kalista does) sort of makes sense.
|
On November 06 2015 07:21 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote:
I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now. Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
I suppose a lot of other ADCs didn't have the chance to bring a team down since their teams weren't that great either. I guess I'll throw him in with the 'everyone else' category also.
I dunno what the DL supporters saw in his performance at worlds tho.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
