EPTDoublelift leaves CLG, joins TSM - Page 11
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 03 2015 21:38 Fusilero wrote: Personally I'd say doublelift has had the highest individual peak skill of any western ADC but all time I'd probably have to take someone that's sustained results and high level play for a longer period of time than he has like Sneaky or Rekkles What would you base this off though? There was definitely a period where he was one of the most mechanically skilled adc players, but that was back in the s2 days when he would stomp lane, then do retarded stuff all game but survive by outplaying people through mechanics. Even in the "koreans scrim us purely to learn from out bot lane" days, he was winning lane and skirmishes through mechanics, then throwing or almost throwing games all over the place with his post laning decision making. He might have been the most dominant western adc for a time, but I'd argue that's because he never faced any real competition, and as soon as people caught up to his mechanics he just became "another decent adc." An argument for him being an "all time great" or something, in terms of some kind of fan hall of fame, but I wouldn't say even his peak was anywhere near the most skillful western adc ever. The whole "look how comparatively good he was in s2" argument is great, but you wouldn't go calling ocelot or reginald the pinacle of mid lane, just because they had periods in s1/s2 when they destroyed people purely because everyone else was trash :p | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1. pls Chauster #1 | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1. Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 04 2015 02:47 Zato-1 wrote: Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On November 04 2015 02:54 killerdog wrote: I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time. Doublelift has been playing for five years, and has been at the top or close to it for most of that time, skill-wise if not in terms of results. That's substantially different from jiji. On November 04 2015 03:28 Sermokala wrote: I'm still not believing this has happened. I don't know what it means if it is though. Oh this ship sailed long ago my friend. All that's left to decide is how you react to it. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:25 ticklishmusic wrote: Looks like the Bjerg + Liftlift combo is attracting interest. Pros are literally getting in line to tryout for TSM lol. Honestly it feels more like TSM is the only recruiting org that can actually promise to have a competitive team next split :p Pretty much every other team (CLG, TL, C9, TIP, gravity etc) are either set rosters, or have a decent chance of being completely irrelevant next split. TSM is at least guaranteed to be semi decent. Also the fact they have two foreign spots still open means NA competition is much fiercer, since they're competing against the entire world rather then just other random NA challenger players. On November 04 2015 04:25 Zato-1 wrote: Doublelift has been playing for five years, and has been at the top or close to it for most of that time, skill-wise if not in terms of results. That's substantially different from jiji. And for a good 3-4 of those he wasn't even top 2 adc's in his own region, let alone "the west." S2 he was pretty good, but his play at the time was still super suspect. He was very very far from the perfect player, and did dumb shit all the time. S3 they came in 4th and 6th in their region in lcs splits. Sneaky and wildturtle both arguably way better then double was. And this was with clg playing a "lets try and make doublelift look as good as possible" strat almost every game S4 turtle sneaky and now vasili all doing well in NA S5 He played decently in the summer split, but I really don't think he was "the best western adc" for any of this season compared to people like niels, rekkles, forgiven, freeze etc. And then you look at someone like forgiven, who managed to near solo carry his entire team to first place in regular seasons, while eating 3 adc bans every game. Dyrus was a beast in s1/s2, then managed to stay "close to the top" for another 3 years. And he's actually won tournaments through this entire time period (lots of them.) But I don't think anyone would really say he's the best top laner of all time. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On November 04 2015 04:51 killerdog wrote: Honestly it feels more like TSM is the only recruiting org that can actually promise to have a competitive team next split :p Pretty much every other team (CLG, TL, C9, TIP, gravity etc) are either set rosters, or have a decent chance of being completely irrelevant next split. TSM is at least guaranteed to be semi decent. Also the fact they have two foreign spots still open means NA competition is much fiercer, since they're competing against the entire world rather then just other random NA challenger players. And for a good 3-4 of those he wasn't even top 2 adc's in his own region, let alone "the west." S2 he was pretty good, but his play at the time was still super suspect. He was very very far from the perfect player, and did dumb shit all the time. S3 they came in 4th and 6th in their region in lcs splits. Sneaky and wildturtle both arguably way better then double was. And this was with clg playing a "lets try and make doublelift look as good as possible" strat almost every game S4 turtle sneaky and now vasili all doing well in NA S5 He played decently in the summer split, but I really don't think he was "the best western adc" for any of this season compared to people like niels, rekkles, forgiven, freeze etc. And then you look at someone like forgiven, who managed to near solo carry his entire team to first place in regular seasons, while eating 3 adc bans every game. Dyrus was a beast in s1/s2, then managed to stay "close to the top" for another 3 years. And he's actually won tournaments through this entire time period (lots of them.) But I don't think anyone would really say he's the best top laner of all time. Jokes? In spring split there was a total of 7 ADC bans against SK before the team got exposed at IEM and only 4 after that. In spring playoffs he consistently drew 2 bans, but never 3. In summer split there was a total of 9 ADC bans against Gambit, with a hefty portion being a standard Sivir ban. Only time Forgiven received heavy target banning was Spring playoffs. | ||
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Pemula
Indonesia73 Posts
really, i though Doublelift will never leave CLG, sad Day for CLG but i guess a very good day for TSM fans. it will be interesting to see how the new split will turns out. | ||
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bbc23
United States416 Posts
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North2
134 Posts
Although from a fan perspective, I don't really have any reason left to support CLG now. I mean sure they'll probably be stronger than if Aphro left and Dlift stayed, but that won't make me want to cheer for CLG. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote: Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part. ... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise. @bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On November 04 2015 06:02 Amarok wrote: Never mind Forgiven fell off hugely when the meta shifted going into playoffs. It goes back to what I said about DL being adaptable. In the second half of his career DL has been perfectly happy playing what the team needed, and/or what the meta required. Forgiven looked great on Lucian and Graves but couldn't transition to a more supportive meta or a team where he wasn't #1 farm priority. That's a big black mark imo. The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player. I honestly think Forg1ven can be a top 3 adc in the world if he played more champions. If the meta is in his favor he's easily top 3 in the world. mechanically, he and bjergsen are the best players in the west and the only ones I'd put money on to beat out Korean players in their positions. | ||
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