Counter Logic Gaming is sadly announcing today that the team has parted ways with Peter "Doublelift" Peng. Doublelift has been one of the core members of CLG for the past four years and one of the legacy players that fans of old still love to this day. We are proud to have won a championship with Doublelift as a CLG member. It took four years of hard work, dedication, and sacrifice - but we did it together.
That is why this decision was not taken lightly. Doublelift's persistence and drive to be better, while still remaining a top talent after four years is a testament to the player that he is. Those years were not without disagreements however, and over the course of time have created a heavy burden on the relationship between Doublelift and the organization. It is difficult to make compromises with the past always present. After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.
Although he will no longer wear the CLG colors, there is no doubt that Doublelift will continue to be one of the best players in North America. We wish him well and look forward to hopefully facing him in the LCS next year.
It's been great to be apart of Doublelift's transition as a professional since the first time I met him in solo queue five years ago. CLG and Doublelift have been through a lot together, and because of that history, there are a lot of things that would have to be explained in detail so that people would have the full context behind our decision. That road was walked once down once before and even after multiple statements, the conclusions drawn were still just speculations. In respect of Doublelift, and of our fans so that they don’t have to undergo that event again, I want to leave it at that.
Doublelift was a big part of CLG’s legacy. We went to two World Championships, fought through relegations, stuck together for five years, and won an NA LCS Championship at MSG together. It was a crazy journey and I wish him luck in the future.
- George "HotshotGG" Georgallidis
CLG did a lot of great things for me. They took me in when I was young and unproven, molding me into the player I am today. It's through their support that we are proud to become champions on the biggest stage NA LCS has ever been held. I am extremely sad to leave the team that I have stood behind for so long, but I must respect their decision to head in a different direction.
Well this is the LAST place I expected DL. I remember him saying he'd NEVER leave CLG because of the opportunities they gave him. Wow, this is the biggest roster swap I can remember happening in NA.
I'm pretty sure that Aphromoo is coming next. So CLG will just kick Pobelter, Liftlift, Aphromoo and head coach while Xmithie and ZionSpartan who just had awful Worlds will stay.
Ten outta ten, CLG. God bless 2016.
Or Aphro will just retire, so Huhi will carry CLG to relegations.
On the other hand, 5.5 years of loving CLG are over now. Good ride, enough of Western LoL now.
As a TSM fan since season 1, having Doublelift on the team just feels so... wrong.
I guess it ties in with the plan of getting good enough NA players so that they can get fill the rest of the roster with better players from other regions on other positions?
I think it's more than likely Aphro ends up going to TSM along with LiftLift. I'd guess that Wildturtle will go in the jungle now and TSM is gonna find a hard carry for top... unless they decide to drop Turtle, but I feel that's a little unlikely.
LOL the NALCS next season is going to be completely unpredictable. I wouldnt be surprised if a team like Renegrades or Coast take the early lead while all these teams recycle and swap their veterans around.
On November 01 2015 11:01 MooMooMugi wrote: LOL the NALCS next season is going to be completely unpredictable. I wouldnt be surprised if a team like Renegrades or Coast take the early lead while all these teams recycle and swap their veterans around.
Sacramento Kings v Linkin Park finals is basically confirmed anyway
Yea, it's like Johnny Damon from Red Sox to Yankees. Or Brett Favre joining the Vikings after leaving the Packers (well, his one year stint with the Jets aside). Or Ray Allen from Celtics to Heat?
This is really unexpected. There were rumors of DL having disagreements with management but never thought it would come to this. Must felt weird for CLG/TSM fans now.
On November 01 2015 11:32 krndandaman wrote: gotta say though, probably one of the more entertaining parts of NA LCS is the offseason lmao
I think you're underselling how big of a move this is because it is without a doubt the biggest move in the history of the Western scene. The only "comparable" move ever was Dyrus to TSM, and the scene wasn't close to as big then despite him just basically cheating on Epik with TSM and then switching over because of Regi/Dan being brothers and stuff. Rekkles to Alliance didn't get close to the amount of incredulity that this is getting.
Doublelift was CLG's franchise player for 4 seasons, that's an unbelievable amount of time. Seriously I can only think of a few players who have had a similar impact for as long for their teams in Shy/Madlife and even then they have fallen off a good amount comparatively in their regions while DL was CLG's best player the whole time.
On November 01 2015 10:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: I'm pretty sure that Aphromoo is coming next. So CLG will just kick Pobelter, Liftlift, Aphromoo and head coach while Xmithie and ZionSpartan who just had awful Worlds will stay.
Every week I say something about this being the most CLG thing possible, then CLG out CLGs itself.
Double/Adrian/Burgerking + 2 imports is actually a decent roster on the international stage, at least on paper.
Clarification on Wildturtle's situation, from News of Legends (part of the Solomid network):
As a result of this decision, we are also announcing that Jason ‘WildTurtle’ Tran is now a part of our substitute roster, and is looking at starting AD Carry positions on other teams. We will announce any future updates regarding his situation.
On November 01 2015 10:57 ticklishmusic wrote: I think it's more than likely Aphro ends up going to TSM along with LiftLift. I'd guess that Wildturtle will go in the jungle now and TSM is gonna find a hard carry for top... unless they decide to drop Turtle, but I feel that's a little unlikely.
Not sure why you would think Turtle would move to another position. He hasn't spammed jungle in solo queue; I've seen him play some Lee Sin in the past but that is pretty much only when ADC is taken or if he wants to have fun.
On November 01 2015 10:57 ticklishmusic wrote: I think it's more than likely Aphro ends up going to TSM along with LiftLift. I'd guess that Wildturtle will go in the jungle now and TSM is gonna find a hard carry for top... unless they decide to drop Turtle, but I feel that's a little unlikely.
Clarification on Wildturtle's situation, from News of Legends (part of the Solomid network):
As a result of this decision, we are also announcing that Jason ‘WildTurtle’ Tran is now a part of our substitute roster, and is looking at starting AD Carry positions on other teams. We will announce any future updates regarding his situation.
Not sure why you would think Turtle would move to another position. He hasn't spammed jungle in solo queue; I've seen him play some Lee Sin in the past but that is pretty much only when ADC is taken or if he wants to have fun.
As bad as Turtle is on the international stage/at worlds he's still good enough to be a replacement on 50% of NA teams, assuming he wants to keep playing competitively instead of using his TSM popularity to just stream or go back to school or something he'll have no problem getting on a different roster.
So the sub thing is merely a formality, I'll be very surprised if he actually stays on TSM as a sub.
On November 01 2015 11:51 LaNague wrote: after dyrus leaves, TSM picks up another fan favourite. They might play like shit, but they know how to get those fans
Dlift is actually a good player and tries his best unlike dyrus.Cant wait to see new TSM!
I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood. Doublelift, best adc in North America, trash teammates, can't win anything, while TSM is successful org with not as good adc. (besides Season 3 WildTurtle, ofc).
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
On November 01 2015 11:51 LaNague wrote: after dyrus leaves, TSM picks up another fan favourite. They might play like shit, but they know how to get those fans
Dlift is actually a good player and tries his best unlike dyrus.Cant wait to see new TSM!
cant wait to see them playing groups next worlds again
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood.
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
I don't even know where CLG goes from here. Right now they have Zion/Xmithie/Huhi/?????/Aphro
Like unless they get Freeze/Forgiven that is an absolutely dire team.
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood.
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
I don't even know where CLG goes from here. Right now they have Zion/Xmithie/Huhi/?????/Aphro
Like unless they get Freeze/Forgiven that is an absolutely dire team.
Zion is reportedly in TSM's final 2 to become their top. With all the money it feels like is being thrown around, good luck replacing him if he leaves. There's also the rumor that Aphro might retire.
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood.
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
I don't even know where CLG goes from here. Right now they have Zion/Xmithie/Huhi/?????/Aphro
Like unless they get Freeze/Forgiven that is an absolutely dire team.
Zion is reportedly in TSM's final 2 to become their top. With all the money it feels like is being thrown around, good luck replacing him if he leaves. There's also the rumor that Aphro might retire.
With rumors of TSM adrian I'd be very surprised if Zion won the spot, not using an import slot seems like a mistake, especially if the player you're getting instead is Zion
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood.
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
I don't even know where CLG goes from here. Right now they have Zion/Xmithie/Huhi/?????/Aphro
Like unless they get Freeze/Forgiven that is an absolutely dire team.
Zion is reportedly in TSM's final 2 to become their top. With all the money it feels like is being thrown around, good luck replacing him if he leaves. There's also the rumor that Aphro might retire.
With rumors of TSM adrian I'd be very surprised if Zion won the spot, not using an import slot seems like a mistake, especially if the player you're getting instead is Zion
Not using the import spot would be a mistake only if you're not getting the few good NA players (not saying I include Zion in that group). In theory the NA players are more worthwhile because every team has to have 3 of them so by taking a couple of those significantly weakens other teams.
Edit: Though using the import spots is 100% worth it if you want NA to be as competitive as possible.
On November 01 2015 12:42 LimpingGhost wrote: I think Turtle is going to either CLG or TiP, and I don't think TSM Adrian is happening, nor TSM Aphromoo.
Wait is that actually you?? I've already been burned by a Goat troll...
On November 01 2015 12:42 LimpingGhost wrote: I think Turtle is going to either CLG or TiP, and I don't think TSM Adrian is happening, nor TSM Aphromoo.
Wait is that actually you?? I've already been burned by a Goat troll...
Yeah it is me. It'd be easier if whoever admins this site figured out that I was falsely banned, so that I could just use my real account, but I guess this works.
On November 01 2015 12:42 LimpingGhost wrote: I think Turtle is going to either CLG or TiP, and I don't think TSM Adrian is happening, nor TSM Aphromoo.
Wait is that actually you?? I've already been burned by a Goat troll...
Yeah it is me. It'd be easier if whoever admins this site figured out that I was falsely banned, so that I could just use my real account, but I guess this works.
On November 01 2015 12:42 LimpingGhost wrote: I think Turtle is going to either CLG or TiP, and I don't think TSM Adrian is happening, nor TSM Aphromoo.
Wait is that actually you?? I've already been burned by a Goat troll...
Yeah it is me. It'd be easier if whoever admins this site figured out that I was falsely banned, so that I could just use my real account, but I guess this works.
Whaddya think about TSM Zion?
I don't know. It seems like getting a great roster is a lot of luck with how players interact with eachother as a team. Part of that is what kind of coaching does a team have to help develop the team itself, which is what I am particularly interested in seeing for TSM in this next season.
Even the Doublelift move seems questionable, teams in the past have made seemingly hype moves that backfired completely and made them worse than when they had a perceived "weaker" player. Is Doublelift going to demand resources away from Bjergsen and end up hurting his performance? Is CLG's botlane laning strength more to do with Aphro than Double? Or a unique product of them playing together? This stuff is why I hate speculating on how strong or weak rosters will be before actually seeing them play.
I have faith in Regi and his ability to consistently keep TSM a top team, so I'm not worried about them at least domestically. I also think CLG is not as fucked as people think they are without Double, especially if they get Turtle and are able to keep Zion and Aphro.
edit- @ above, at least if double fans say he takes all team resources cause his mid is trash they won't have a leg to stand on lol. Time to see if the problem was CLG org or if it really was double all along lol
On November 01 2015 12:42 LimpingGhost wrote: I think Turtle is going to either CLG or TiP, and I don't think TSM Adrian is happening, nor TSM Aphromoo.
TSM adrian would be the best move for TSM I think. He's good and that frees up an import slot for your jg/top laner, where NA is weakest talentwise
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood.
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
I don't even know where CLG goes from here. Right now they have Zion/Xmithie/Huhi/?????/Aphro
Like unless they get Freeze/Forgiven that is an absolutely dire team.
Zion is reportedly in TSM's final 2 to become their top. With all the money it feels like is being thrown around, good luck replacing him if he leaves. There's also the rumor that Aphro might retire.
With rumors of TSM adrian I'd be very surprised if Zion won the spot, not using an import slot seems like a mistake, especially if the player you're getting instead is Zion
Not using the import spot would be a mistake only if you're not getting the few good NA players (not saying I include Zion in that group). In theory the NA players are more worthwhile because every team has to have 3 of them so by taking a couple of those significantly weakens other teams.
Edit: Though using the import spots is 100% worth it if you want NA to be as competitive as possible.
Agree with everything you say, but doesn't apply re Zion because you could get a way betteri mport top. Also sabotaging other NA teams doesn't really matter if you're TSM and your individual strength (assuming they fill up rest of roster with semicompetent players) and org strength means you'll make it through NA anyway, then it doesn't matter at all in international competition where TSM supposedly (and I believe them) are really focusing their goals.
On November 01 2015 13:05 LimpingGhost wrote: I don't know. It seems like getting a great roster is a lot of luck with how players interact with eachother as a team. Part of that is what kind of coaching does a team have to help develop the team itself, which is what I am particularly interested in seeing for TSM in this next season.
Even the Doublelift move seems questionable, teams in the past have made seemingly hype moves that backfired completely and made them worse than when they had a perceived "weaker" player. Is Doublelift going to demand resources away from Bjergsen and end up hurting his performance? Is CLG's botlane laning strength more to do with Aphro than Double? Or a unique product of them playing together? This stuff is why I hate speculating on how strong or weak rosters will be before actually seeing them play.
I have faith in Regi and his ability to consistently keep TSM a top team, so I'm not worried about them at least domestically. I also think CLG is not as fucked as people think they are without Double, especially if they get Turtle and are able to keep Zion and Aphro.
I'm not 100% sure about the whole "taking resources away" thing, as we've seen the Korean teams figure out how to make sure that the carries on the team (once the top lane carries started to become a thing) get enough gold to be effective.
Usually this means that the top, mid, and ADC get 1 lane's worth of farm, get side camps from jungler (which turns the jungler into little more than a second ward bot) and farm enemy jungle when they push waves in.
The theory behind getting two strong players is fine, you just have to make sure that they are playing AS A TEAM and doing what is best FOR THE TEAM. To me, that's always been DL's biggest issue: letting someone else carry a game (if not a whole series). Part of that is attitude, but part of that has to be beaten into his head from the coaching staff, and TSM's coaching and support structure does not instill a bunch of confidence in me.
I'm sorry Hotshot but just putting this tweet out is in poor taste. Either do it or don't but don't put that out on social media it looks unprofessional as fuck.
Fuck, does this mean I have to be a TSM fan now? I'll give it some time and wait for the teams' rosters to solidify, but without Liftlift, my CLG flair is in peril.
I'm sorry Hotshot but just putting this tweet out is in poor taste. Either do it or don't but don't put that out on social media it looks unprofessional as fuck.
Dunno but my guess is DL decided to leave on his own and CLG said that they kicked him so he doesn't get too much backlash? But now he's probably feeling the heat.
I'm sorry Hotshot but just putting this tweet out is in poor taste. Either do it or don't but don't put that out on social media it looks unprofessional as fuck.
hsgg and professional in the same sentence is just l0l
On November 01 2015 14:13 LimpingGhost wrote: Surely no other roster change during off season can top this, right?
idk I mean this is big in the sense that it felt unlikely, but with all the money rumored in NA next season I think the biggest pick up will be an asian.
So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did actually believe everything they said about how they thought they could win/go deep into worlds
Holy crap this is insane. It'll be really interesting to see if DL actually thrives or crashes in an environment like TSM. DL and Regi are two of the hardest heads in the scene, it'd be out of character for there not to be earth splitting bust ups. But the payoff if Bjerg and DL get firing is beyond big.
My CLG flair is donezo though. No way I can follow TSM but there no reason to follow CLG without DL.
Personally I don't see clg taking a single game from tsm this season, regi will 100% pick up a strong roster to complement Bjergsen/Doublelift and clg can't possibly fill all the holes they have already dug and with an implied leave of zion/aphro to come. The organisation also doesn't have the draw to attract forgiven or freeze unless they are in it for the cash.
As for tsm, I see an issue with doublelift and Loco. As far as I know they have some beef which goes back to when Loco was supp for them in 2012. I don't know if they have reconciled and became friends again but it's hard to imagine Loco as an authority figure over Doublelift (yes I know he is not the headcoach anymore)
Already said before TSM does not want to employ some faceless European like Freeze after their most popular players aready left. They need something to keep the brand going (apart from needing NA players). This is a great move by Regi. I just did not expect Dlift to do this, but then again the teams / players of CLG and TSM were already close last season and scrimmed together a lot. And money talks of course.
edit: Oh after watching the video Dlift was even kicked by CLG. That is really strange to me. It is not like you can find many NA players better than him (on all positions) and for marketing he is the most valuable player in NA by far. HSGG strikes again I guess.
On November 01 2015 19:11 Redox wrote: Already said before TSM does not want to employ some faceless European like Freeze after their most popular players aready left. They need something to keep the brand going (apart from needing NA players). This is a great move by Regi. I just did not expect Dlift to do this, but then again the teams / players of CLG and TSM were already close last season and scrimmed together a lot. And money talks of course.
Freeze isn't exactly a faceless player, he's just not famous.
This move is just insane. I really don't understand how CLG could give up one of their most iconic players, DL is literally the face of the team. And of all teams that pick him up, it's TSM, that looks to bite them in the ass, especially if they also find a good top laner.
On November 01 2015 19:11 Redox wrote: Already said before TSM does not want to employ some faceless European like Freeze after their most popular players aready left. They need something to keep the brand going (apart from needing NA players). This is a great move by Regi. I just did not expect Dlift to do this, but then again the teams / players of CLG and TSM were already close last season and scrimmed together a lot. And money talks of course.
Freeze isn't exactly a faceless player, he's just not famous.
This move is just insane. I really don't understand how CLG could give up one of their most iconic players, DL is literally the face of the team. And of all teams that pick him up, it's TSM, that looks to bite them in the ass, especially if they also find a good top laner.
CLG just killed their brand. Because HSGG was not completely succesful doing that with their Korea move in s2. Not my problem, but its so incredibly stupid it hurts.
The bigger issue with Freeze is that if you pick Freeze one of your top side has to be NA and unless it's zion that's never going to go well. In terms of skill doublelift alongside sneaky and maybe altec were the only real viable domestic ADCs that would be a possible upgrade to turtle
That being said I don't think talent; especially at the ADC was ever TSM's biggest problem. Doublelift is neat but I'll be waiting on TSM to get someone to alleviate shotcalling responsibilities from bjergsen
I think they kicked DL because of some conflict with the management. No way Hotshot really thinks kicking Pobelter, DL and their coach is the best way to improve his team.
So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
is it weird that the first thing i did when i saw the title was mentally check if it was aprils fools? in fucking October. because this is funny as fuck
On November 01 2015 18:58 AsnSensation wrote: Personally I don't see clg taking a single game from tsm this season, regi will 100% pick up a strong roster to complement Bjergsen/Doublelift and clg can't possibly fill all the wholes they have already dug and with an implied leave of zion/aphro to come. The organisation also doesn't have the draw to attract forgiven or freeze unless they are in it for the cash.
As for tsm, I see an issue with doublelift and Loco. As far as I know they have some beef which goes back to when Loco was supp for them in 2012. I don't know if they have reconciled and became friends again but it's to imagine Loco as an authority figure over Doublelift (yes I know he is not the headcoach anymore)
Loco won't be the head coach. The main authority figure will be someone else who would most likely have the background and seniority to enforce the way the team is run.
So, from what we can tell it seems like having a big personality and confidence helps thrive on TSM, so there's that. Also Dlift often said that he believes he "owes" CLG to get it to the top, so makes sense to finally jump the ship after he won a championship.
So, from what we can tell it seems like having a big personality and confidence helps thrive on TSM, so there's that. Also Dlift often said that he believes he "owes" CLG to get it to the top, so makes sense to finally jump the ship after he won a championship.
So, from what we can tell it seems like having a big personality and confidence helps thrive on TSM, so there's that. Also Dlift often said that he believes he "owes" CLG to get it to the top, so makes sense to finally jump the ship after he won a championship.
Apparently Dlift was kicked though.
Which is another hilarious part to me. His contract ended in 2 weeks. It's much less of a PR disaster if you just say you had different visions for CLG's future and decided to amicably part ways.
Boom, fucking easy.
Instead Hotshot proves again to be a total business disaster by "kicking" him out of CLG.
HSGG seems like a really nice guy that doesn't really know how to run the team, year after year he makes some very suspect decisions, hopefully the new CLG will work out and be a decent team
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
On November 01 2015 12:14 Miefer wrote: I remember the times when people were calling out DL for being the problem of clg when they were about to get relegated, demanding his replacement. How the times has changed...
Because this move is 3 years later than it was supposed to happen. Even 2 years, 1 year ago people would've understood. Doublelift, best adc in North America, trash teammates, can't win anything, while TSM is successful org with not as good adc. (besides Season 3 WildTurtle, ofc).
But not now when CLG is self-destructing after winning championship and TSM just completed biggest heist in Western League of Legends, after losing in MSG.
Yeah it's hilarious, though I don't think DL is going to be what TSM needs to be successful. Surely better than Turtle though.
Seriously DL, if you wanted to be a traitor anyway should have gone years ago.
Waking up today, casually opening reddit and then this. I thought DL and CLG were kind of set in stone but maybe this change will finally yield a kickass TSM roster.
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
On November 01 2015 18:58 AsnSensation wrote: Personally I don't see clg taking a single game from tsm this season, regi will 100% pick up a strong roster to complement Bjergsen/Doublelift and clg can't possibly fill all the holes they have already dug and with an implied leave of zion/aphro to come. The organisation also doesn't have the draw to attract forgiven or freeze unless they are in it for the cash.
As for tsm, I see an issue with doublelift and Loco. As far as I know they have some beef which goes back to when Loco was supp for them in 2012. I don't know if they have reconciled and became friends again but it's hard to imagine Loco as an authority figure over Doublelift (yes I know he is not the headcoach anymore)
Loco will be doing his TSM duties from Korea at least until Summer split. Didn't say why.
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
Because it was only way for Doublelift to leave CLG? like i said, he made a promise and didnt want to break it. Brand was still going to get damaged after this anyway. so its not a big deal.
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
The issue with that KD is that you don't want Doublelift to be a voice on your team. TSM needs a leader/captain for their team to not only do the ingame decisions but also bring them together as a unit. Doublelift can't do those things. He may even unintentionally hinder them. I'm worried that TSM may just keep adding in "good players" and not fix that issue.
On November 01 2015 22:51 Numy wrote: The issue with that KD is that you don't want Doublelift to be a voice on your team. TSM needs a leader/captain for their team to not only do the ingame decisions but also bring them together as a unit. Doublelift can't do those things. He may even hinder unintentionally hinder them. I'm worried that TSM may just keep adding in "good players" and not fix that issue.
Bjergsen leading Doublelift in game. If it ends well, LimpingGOAT will be banned again even before first LCS Spring 2016 week ends, if not IEM San Jose.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
Doublelift didn't leave, he was kicked.
PR statements so...
'After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.'
Which can literally be DL demanded more money that TSM offered.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
Doublelift didn't leave, he was kicked.
PR statements so...
'After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.'
Which can literally be DL demanded more money that TSM offered.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
Doublelift didn't leave, he was kicked.
PR statements so...
'After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.'
Which can literally be DL demanded more money that TSM offered.
This is like the contrary of PR....
Well I mean I didn't it say it was done well, lol. Still, Doublelift left and we don't know what the reason for that is so I don't think it's worth saying CLG is to blame at this point.
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
Doublelift didn't leave, he was kicked.
PR statements so...
'After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.'
Which can literally be DL demanded more money that TSM offered.
This is like the contrary of PR....
Well I mean I didn't it say it was done well, lol. Still, Doublelift left and we don't know what the reason for that is so I don't think it's worth saying CLG is to blame at this point.
I'm not saying Doublelift is blameless- if he was kicked, it's fair to assume that he was the protagonist of some serious disagreements with management at the very least. But even if Doublelift is entirely to blame for the falling out between him and the team (which is unlikely), the decision to sever the relationship seems to have come from CLG, not from Doublelift. That's what I mean by "Doublelift was kicked".
On November 01 2015 15:05 Shikyo wrote: So strange. Doublelift had numerous seasons where CLG dragged him down and he had tons of opportunities to leave when it made more sense. Then he has success with them, finally, and then he leaves the team(that is getting rid of all their best players despite winning NA).
It's as if CLG / doublelift consider bombing at worlds a failure instead of the expected outcome.
On November 01 2015 19:41 Numy wrote: So weird that after all these years of DL staying on a mediocre CLG he leaves/kicked when they finally manage to do something. Well this is something I wanted to happen years ago, while I think CLG's brand is going to suffer they may be able to build a better team going forward. Double is a good player but the problem was he sucked away too much from CLG. At TSM that problem won't happen so both teams may come out better for it.
Doublelift didn't leave, he was kicked.
PR statements so...
'After painstaking deliberation, it was decided that it was in the best interest of CLG that Doublelift be released from the team.'
Which can literally be DL demanded more money that TSM offered.
This is like the contrary of PR....
Well I mean I didn't it say it was done well, lol. Still, Doublelift left and we don't know what the reason for that is so I don't think it's worth saying CLG is to blame at this point.
I'm not saying Doublelift is blameless- if he was kicked, it's fair to assume that he was the protagonist of some serious disagreements with management at the very least. But even if Doublelift is entirely to blame for the falling out between him and the team (which is unlikely), the decision to sever the relationship seems to have come from CLG, not from Doublelift. That's what I mean by "Doublelift was kicked".
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
on a serious note tsm definitely needs to get their shotcaller on one of the last 3 remaining positions. Bjergsen has shown he's not suited for the role and we know that Doublelift is not an ingame leader. Having someone else as shotcaller also allows Bjergsen & DL to 100% focus on their lane and mechanics.
On November 02 2015 02:53 AsnSensation wrote: more like everyone else was pretty bad.
on a serious note tsm definitely needs to get their shotcaller on one of the last 3 remaining positions. Bjergsen has shown he's not suited for the role and we know that Doublelift is not an ingame leader. Having someone else as shotcaller also allows Bjergsen & DL to 100% focus on their lane and mechanics.
Thata why they are going to get BunnyFuuFu.
Reginald was going crazy when Rush making plays as well, wouldnt be surprised if they get him as jungler.
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
The problem with TSM was shotcalling in general. Bjerg isn't the best shotcaller and the team didn't do anything to make it easy on him. If a top call went bad Dyrus would tilt bit by bit and not buy in on the calls and sometimes get passive aggressive about it. This caused Bjergsen to make top calls suggestively instead of assertively. The difference between "Can we TP here?" and "TP now." is big. Santorin was getting pulled around the map by his side lanes. If a lane wasn't going well and Santorin would go to relieve pressure the laner would tell him to not come. Then after shading away from, say botlane, he'd be called down there for an urgent situation but be too far to get there. As a result he spent a lot of time in no man's land, which added to the perceived passivity. It took a lot of his movement and pathing out of his hands and he was too mild mannered to just put his foot down. Dyrus and Lustboy are both men of little words, so they were less likely to make calls.
Bjergsen being vocal in team discussions causing issues is bullshit Monte pulled out of his TSM hating butt and acting like he knew what was going on from a half hour show that covers at least a week.
On November 02 2015 03:49 iCanada wrote: Doublift says on stream that they made a decision overnight, texted Doublelift at 2 AM and said he was off the team.
He says he believes CLG thinks this is the best decision.
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
The problem with TSM was shotcalling in general. Bjerg isn't the best shotcaller and the team didn't do anything to make it easy on him. If a top call went bad Dyrus would tilt bit by bit and not buy in on the calls and sometimes get passive aggressive about it. This caused Bjergsen to make top calls suggestively instead of assertively. The difference between "Can we TP here?" and "TP now." is big. Santorin was getting pulled around the map by his side lanes. If a lane wasn't going well and Santorin would go to relieve pressure the laner would tell him to not come. Then after shading away from, say botlane, he'd be called down there for an urgent situation but be too far to get there. As a result he spent a lot of time in no man's land, which added to the perceived passivity. It took a lot of his movement and pathing out of his hands and he was too mild mannered to just put his foot down. Dyrus and Lustboy are both men of little words, so they were less likely to make calls.
Bjergsen being vocal in team discussions causing issues is bullshit Monte pulled out of his TSM hating butt and acting like he knew what was going on from a half hour show that covers at least a week.
TSM's problems go way beyond shout calling. They need improvement across the board and that's one of the reasons they're clearing house.
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:18 Sent. wrote: CLG is donezo and TSM Doublelift sounds crazier than EG Huk, wow
I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
The problem with TSM was shotcalling in general. Bjerg isn't the best shotcaller and the team didn't do anything to make it easy on him. If a top call went bad Dyrus would tilt bit by bit and not buy in on the calls and sometimes get passive aggressive about it. This caused Bjergsen to make top calls suggestively instead of assertively. The difference between "Can we TP here?" and "TP now." is big. Santorin was getting pulled around the map by his side lanes. If a lane wasn't going well and Santorin would go to relieve pressure the laner would tell him to not come. Then after shading away from, say botlane, he'd be called down there for an urgent situation but be too far to get there. As a result he spent a lot of time in no man's land, which added to the perceived passivity. It took a lot of his movement and pathing out of his hands and he was too mild mannered to just put his foot down. Dyrus and Lustboy are both men of little words, so they were less likely to make calls.
Bjergsen being vocal in team discussions causing issues is bullshit Monte pulled out of his TSM hating butt and acting like he knew what was going on from a half hour show that covers at least a week.
TSM's problems go way beyond shout calling. They need improvement across the board and that's one of the reasons they're clearing house.
Clearly. Still, that roster was capable of doing pretty decent things for a Western team(IEM Kato) when it was working properly. Communication and shotcalling, while not the sole problem, was a majority of the problem for a roster that should have been more than the sum of its parts.
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote:
On November 01 2015 18:48 Plexa wrote: [quote] I think this move will be about as successful as EG.Huk
Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
The problem with TSM was shotcalling in general. Bjerg isn't the best shotcaller and the team didn't do anything to make it easy on him. If a top call went bad Dyrus would tilt bit by bit and not buy in on the calls and sometimes get passive aggressive about it. This caused Bjergsen to make top calls suggestively instead of assertively. The difference between "Can we TP here?" and "TP now." is big. Santorin was getting pulled around the map by his side lanes. If a lane wasn't going well and Santorin would go to relieve pressure the laner would tell him to not come. Then after shading away from, say botlane, he'd be called down there for an urgent situation but be too far to get there. As a result he spent a lot of time in no man's land, which added to the perceived passivity. It took a lot of his movement and pathing out of his hands and he was too mild mannered to just put his foot down. Dyrus and Lustboy are both men of little words, so they were less likely to make calls.
Bjergsen being vocal in team discussions causing issues is bullshit Monte pulled out of his TSM hating butt and acting like he knew what was going on from a half hour show that covers at least a week.
TSM's problems go way beyond shout calling. They need improvement across the board and that's one of the reasons they're clearing house.
Clearly. Still, that roster was capable of doing pretty decent things for a Western team(IEM Kato) when it was working properly. Communication and shotcalling, while not the sole problem, was a majority of the problem for a roster that should have been more than the sum of its parts.
The teams that went to IEM Katowice weren't particularly good at the time. I mean, GE Tigers lost to a new WE line up that went on to be butchered in the LPL, Yoe FW wasn't solid yet. And CJ... It was nice to see TSM win, but it wasn't exactly a stacked tournament.
Point is, that's not a good example to showcase how good TSM is when they're functioning, because the real Western powerhouses solidified later during the year. TSM got blown up by CLG, and teams like Fnatic and OG would destroy them as well. Good team work does not replace talent, and Dyrus was not able to stand up the the better opponents, let alone the best.
On November 01 2015 20:53 LaNague wrote: hey Plexa i found another use:
C L G
btw after reading the CLG announcement, i dont think that DL left them, he most certainly got kicked by someone being very vindictive.
all round baby
On November 01 2015 21:05 killerdog wrote:
On November 01 2015 20:43 Mensol wrote: Doublelift probably asked HSGG to kick him because he once said im never going to leave CLG unless i get kicked.
But why would he do it? Even just an ambiguous "parting ways" reason would do less damage to his brand then openly kicking the main player "clg" fans are actually a fan of.
He just committed brand seppuku
On November 01 2015 19:04 Plexa wrote:
On November 01 2015 19:00 DystopiaX wrote: [quote] Hard to tell what will happen with TSM seeing as there are 3 positions left open lol
I don't think adding more personalities/strong opinions to TSM is a recipe for success regardless of who else they pick up
Well having quiet/submissive people wasn't working either. Besides, if they get good players for the other roles (zion/impact, rush, a decent support) there aren't really any NA teams that could beat that. C9 is rip, TIP is rip, TL seems rip, clg is VERY rip.
There isn't anyone to compete with TSM for good players, and there won't be anyone who can beat them once lcs starts again :o
The on paper roster analysis really doesn't indicate team performance. Pob joining CLG seemed like a meh move but turned out to be one of the great pickups of the summer split. Roccat "won the preseason trades" ended up middle of the pack. Fnatic were rip, turned out to be god tier. A lot of those non-skill factors have played a significant role in determining the teams success.
POB joining clg was clg replacing their biggets problem (link) with a player who wasn't terrible... People weren't hugely hyped for pobelter specifically because almost any decent mid laner would have been a massive improvement, And it was hardly the thing that magically won them the season either.
Roccat are playing in a region which had multiple good teams, rather then the ruins of NA where pretty much ever even semi decent team has been gutted except TSM.
Your only basis for TSM not being the best team seems to be "FNC might happen again," which is hardly robust analysis.
If anything TSM's biggest issue has been the fact that all their players (including bjergsen) are way too submissive and introverted to be the voice of the team. Double lift definitely doesn't have this issue. As long as regi can tone down the ego enough to not stab double in his sleep after an argument, I think this looks like one of the best lineup changes that could have happened for TSM, and they still have two spots open for non residents, so they can pretty much pimp the rest of the lineup however they want.
Wat. Wasn't a big issue last split for TSM is that Bejrg was too vocal and dominating team decision making (because everyone else was pretty quiet)?
The problem with TSM was shotcalling in general. Bjerg isn't the best shotcaller and the team didn't do anything to make it easy on him. If a top call went bad Dyrus would tilt bit by bit and not buy in on the calls and sometimes get passive aggressive about it. This caused Bjergsen to make top calls suggestively instead of assertively. The difference between "Can we TP here?" and "TP now." is big. Santorin was getting pulled around the map by his side lanes. If a lane wasn't going well and Santorin would go to relieve pressure the laner would tell him to not come. Then after shading away from, say botlane, he'd be called down there for an urgent situation but be too far to get there. As a result he spent a lot of time in no man's land, which added to the perceived passivity. It took a lot of his movement and pathing out of his hands and he was too mild mannered to just put his foot down. Dyrus and Lustboy are both men of little words, so they were less likely to make calls.
Bjergsen being vocal in team discussions causing issues is bullshit Monte pulled out of his TSM hating butt and acting like he knew what was going on from a half hour show that covers at least a week.
TSM's problems go way beyond shout calling. They need improvement across the board and that's one of the reasons they're clearing house.
Clearly. Still, that roster was capable of doing pretty decent things for a Western team(IEM Kato) when it was working properly. Communication and shotcalling, while not the sole problem, was a majority of the problem for a roster that should have been more than the sum of its parts.
The teams that went to IEM Katowice weren't particularly good at the time. I mean, GE Tigers lost to a new WE line up that went on to be butchered in the LPL, Yoe FW wasn't solid yet. And CJ... It was nice to see TSM win, but it wasn't exactly a stacked tournament.
Point is, that's not a good example to showcase how good TSM is when they're functioning, because the real Western powerhouses solidified later during the year. TSM got blown up by CLG, and teams like Fnatic and OG would destroy them as well. Good team work does not replace talent, and Dyrus was not able to stand up the the better opponents, let alone the best.
At the time of team locking the top 2 NA, and KR teams were went. The top LMS and EU team went. The only teams that shouldn't have been there was WE and Gambit. To say anything else is either revisionist history or loaded with hindsight.
I don't think Doublelift is better than Turtle with the exception of last split. Turtle has superior team fighting and doesn't solo farm and get picked off early in fights. Turtle outputs a lot of damage compared to Doublelift with much less farm. Once Turtle regains his form, he'll be better than Doublelift. This was a bad decision for TSM imo.
On November 01 2015 22:25 udgnim wrote: Aphromoo has waited patiently for this
ADC Aphromoo going to make a come back, otherwise CLG fan base going down in flames
Aphromoo wasn't an LCS-caliber ADC even when he mained the role at peak form, and lately he hasn't even been a very good support. I'd expect Yellowpete-level performances from Aphro as an ADC right now.
This comment fucking killed me: Please for everything that is holy not turtle. CLG kicked anakin skywalker and got jar jar binks. God awake me from this nightmare.
Still love Turtle but can't help but find the humor in it.
This comment fucking killed me: Please for everything that is holy not turtle. CLG kicked anakin skywalker and got jar jar binks. God awake me from this nightmare.
Still love Turtle but can't help but find the humor in it.
Wow, I don't know what's happening. HotshotGG really outdoing himself. If CLG ends up fielding a mediocre team and getting regulated, what's going to happen to the brand and business?
I wonder how much time Reginald took before pulling the trigger to acquire Doublelift. Looks like a fast decision.
Reginald has complete control over TSM, so he doesn't have to sit down with a committee or anything really-- he probably just asked Bjerg "yo u cool with liftlife for an NA superteam?" and that was it.
even though I have my doubts about double lift's attitude (I mean I don't know the guy but from the way former teammates talk about him one wonders..) getting an in game upgrade to turtle without spending an import slot seems like a no brainer.
Remember, this is a guy who got kicked out because he decided to go pro instead of going to school. He wants to win, and pretty much everything is secondary to that. Not sure what his family situation is now, but he sure as hell doesn't want to go back emptyhanded.
On November 02 2015 14:19 ticklishmusic wrote: Reginald has complete control over TSM, so he doesn't have to sit down with a committee or anything really-- he probably just asked Bjerg "yo u cool with liftlife for an NA superteam?" and that was it.
I mean, he probably asked the coach/support staff too
but it's pretty much a no brainer to pick up one of the best NA ADCs instead of using an import slot when you have 4 positions to fill. Sneaky and maybe Altec are the only 2 NA players I'd rather have if I'm building a team basically from scratch.
On November 02 2015 14:38 ticklishmusic wrote: Remember, this is a guy who got kicked out because he decided to go pro instead of going to school. He wants to win, and pretty much everything is secondary to that. Not sure what his family situation is now, but he sure as hell doesn't want to go back emptyhanded.
He wouldn't be going back empty handed, he just won NA LCS. Never mind fat stream monies, sponsorships etc.
as weird as it sounds I think doublelift is a better fit for tsm because regi will physically dominate him so he won't bitch at anyone. On the flip side turtle doesn't look like a very talkative guy so he will still go along the weaker staff from clg.
On November 02 2015 14:09 Faeny wrote: Wow, I don't know what's happening. HotshotGG really outdoing himself. If CLG ends up fielding a mediocre team and getting regulated, what's going to happen to the brand and business?
I wonder how much time Reginald took before pulling the trigger to acquire Doublelift. Looks like a fast decision.
dlift said it was only a few hours (he got kicked at like 2am) he wasbasically living in regi's apartment with leena the next day as it would be too awkward in the tsm house atm with turtle still there
On November 02 2015 14:38 ticklishmusic wrote: Remember, this is a guy who got kicked out because he decided to go pro instead of going to school. He wants to win, and pretty much everything is secondary to that. Not sure what his family situation is now, but he sure as hell doesn't want to go back emptyhanded.
He wouldn't be going back empty handed, he just won NA LCS. Never mind fat stream monies, sponsorships etc.
On November 02 2015 14:38 ticklishmusic wrote: Remember, this is a guy who got kicked out because he decided to go pro instead of going to school. He wants to win, and pretty much everything is secondary to that. Not sure what his family situation is now, but he sure as hell doesn't want to go back emptyhanded.
He wouldn't be going back empty handed, he just won NA LCS. Never mind fat stream monies, sponsorships etc.
Not enough for him I'm guessing
I mean, he's still doing pretty well, why stop unless it was too stressful.
Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
It's not like anyone says that Liftlift is GOAT or whatever, lol.
Is he best NA player of all time? Yes. Is he best Western adc ever? Yes. Is he even in top-5 adc all time? No, but he's around 7th, which is pretty good, if you ask me.
Will this TSM be World Champion? Hell no. Will this TSM win NA? Eh, they probably can, why not. Will it satisfy him? Probably not, but hell get a lot of money, which is fair to him.
1) Doublelift's attitude was always bringing the team down. He negatively affected the team atmosphere and morale. They weighed up the pros (branding, fans, skill) and cons (bad attitude, bad team atmosphere) of him being on the team, and ultimately decided it was best for him to be kicked. He also felt that him and Double were friends, and was surprised that Double said they weren't.
2) Pobelter was indeed initially meant to be the 2nd midlaner with HuHi as the main starter, but due to HuHi's visa issues Pobelter became the starter as he was playing well and they didn't want to ruin what was working. HuHi was positive and kept practicing hard, and the team wanted to field him as the starter next split. Pobelter didn't want to do the midlane swap, so he was removed.
3) Turtle is really cool and isn't a bad player. He thinks Turtle would fit the team far better than Doublelift in regards to team spirit and confidence.
4) More adcs are also coming to try out.
5) He's still in negotiations with CLG and it isn't confirmed as to whether he'll be playing next split.
6) Commented on the team problems during worlds, said that after Week 1 of groups they "weren't all there as a team" but doesn't want to give the public the details of what happened behind the scenes.
7) Says that as far as he knows, Double did receive advance warning before being kicked (rather than randomly at 2am like Doublelift said). He said he himself was told a few days earlier, but wasn't at the house at the time so he can't say for sure.
8) If you're a fan of doublelift then it's fine to follow him to a new team and stop supporting CLG, just don't shit on CLG on the way out.
9) He feels Chris was an excellent coach, but understands why he was kicked. He isn't going to say why though as it's very personal and it isn't the fan's business to know.
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
It's not like anyone says that Liftlift is GOAT or whatever, lol.
Is he best NA player of all time? Yes. Is he best Western adc ever? Yes. Is he even in top-5 adc all time? No, but he's around 7th, which is pretty good, if you ask me.
Will this TSM be World Champion? Hell no. Will this TSM win NA? Eh, they probably can, why not. Will it satisfy him? Probably not, but hell get a lot of money, which is fair to him.
Imagine if LiftLift didn't have fucking Locodoco as a support at IPL5
and imagine if he actually got along with his team
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
It's not like anyone says that Liftlift is GOAT or whatever, lol.
Is he best NA player of all time? Yes. Is he best Western adc ever? Yes. Is he even in top-5 adc all time? No, but he's around 7th, which is pretty good, if you ask me.
Will this TSM be World Champion? Hell no. Will this TSM win NA? Eh, they probably can, why not. Will it satisfy him? Probably not, but hell get a lot of money, which is fair to him.
Imagine if LiftLift didn't have fucking Locodoco as a support at IPL5
and imagine if he actually got along with his team
IPL5 was biggest tragedy of single player I've seen in entire League of Legends. Even Faker's struggles in 2014 can't be compared to what Liftlift was trying to do during IPL 5 - winning lanes 1v3, winning games 3v7 with 2 of those 3 being declining faster and faster HotshotGG and bigfatlp.
And this scarecrow almost made top-3, it's just baffling.
But whatever, it's all history now, Liftlift is real winner in this situation. Even if TSM flops, Doublelift will still not only untouched but will profit in money big time, while Reginald will be one to be blamed for "taking arrogant player into team".
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
All 3 of your posts are trashing doublelift. What did he do to you?
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
It's not like anyone says that Liftlift is GOAT or whatever, lol.
Is he best NA player of all time? Yes. Is he best Western adc ever? Yes. Is he even in top-5 adc all time? No, but he's around 7th, which is pretty good, if you ask me.
Will this TSM be World Champion? Hell no. Will this TSM win NA? Eh, they probably can, why not. Will it satisfy him? Probably not, but hell get a lot of money, which is fair to him.
The bias is strong with this one. For the longest time of his career DLift wasnt even considered the best adc in his region. Did you forget the countless times he got caught out farming sidelanes earlier in his career ? Best western adc is really a big stretch. Rekkles has multiple split winnings, deep international tournament runs etc on his back.
overall he is the best but there were periods where he wasnt. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I mean most good adc players were inspired by him and he just had his best split yet ( after he got a competent team and staff for the forst time ever).
On November 03 2015 11:08 moush wrote: Doublelift has a terrible trophy cabinet and winning NA is meaningless. Just imagine if Kobe/Jordan/Lebron never won a ring, they'd be laughed out of any GOAT talks unlike Doublelift's cult somehow assume he belongs to.
It's not like anyone says that Liftlift is GOAT or whatever, lol.
The bias is strong with this one. For the longest time of his career DLift wasnt even considered the best adc in his region. Did you forget the countless times he got caught out farming sidelanes earlier in his career ? Best western adc is really a big stretch. Rekkles has multiple split winnings, deep international tournament runs etc on his back.
You did see who posted it right? :p
Is he best NA player of all time? Depends what metric you use. I don't think there was any point in time where he was ever better then the other players also playing at the time. He's managed to remain relevant for a long time, but imo he's never been super super dominant, and there's always been 1-2 people who were god mode at any given point. He's like a dyrus who's done a better job of staying good, but didn't have dyrus' legendary s1/s2 influence.
Is he best Western adc ever? lolno. Maybe he was the best at the time for a bit in s2-s3, although even then he had massive issues and was basically the equivalanet of a shitty scripter. Perfect mechanics and no game sense :p If you rephrase it to "is he the greatest western adc of all time" or something, then maybe.
Is he even in top-5 adc all time? I mean, if you're including koreans there are probably more then 10 just koreans who have been better then he's ever been.
The tsm statements are all pretty much true though.
Past doesn't matter and he is definitely not the best Western adc ever. He doesn't have trophies and he did not performed at international events past s2. He was losing vs fucking Free/Creaton and Edward/Pinoy.
Is he the best adc in NA? No (Altec better, maybe Sneaky). Is he top 5 adc in the West? No (Niels, Forgiven, Rekkles, Freeze, Altec all better). Did he has attitude problems in past? Yes. Does TSM have resources to pick better adc? Yes.
Marketing wise this is great move by Reginald, but that's all. CLG did what they should have done 1/2 years ago.
Wait, so for three years CLG had a problem with Doublelift "bringing the team down", and instead of scheduling some sessions with a psychologist they kick him off the team?
That's it, I'm done with this stupid team and its awful, awful management.
People saying DL isn't the best western ADC of all time need to start naming names and justifying it. For me he's a no brainer for the title.
Rekkles? Lolno. People want to bring up weak periods for DL but conveniently forget Rekkles' time on Elements. People want to bring up DL lack of trophies but ignore Rekkles played with some of the greatest western lineups ever assembled to get his. At no point in his career has he been even the best player on his team.
Forgiven is in the mix but literally every negative you can bring up about DL applies doubly to Forgiven, and DL is a far more flexible player. Their mechanics are a wash.
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an ATG discussion.
Sneaky is a good player but worse mechanically and was enhanced by a much better team.
Altec has shown promise but hasn't delivered the same level of performance for the same period of time.
Freeze is actually a decent shout but he's never really delivered for long periods either, though his struggle has been titanic.
Whether he's the best western ADC right now is debatable. Whether he's the greatest western ADC of all time really isn't.
On November 03 2015 21:24 Amarok wrote: People saying DL isn't the best western ADC of all time need to start naming names and justifying it. For me he's a no brainer for the title.
Rekkles? Lolno. People want to bring up weak periods for DL but conveniently forget Rekkles' time on Elements. People want to bring up DL lack of trophies but ignore Rekkles played with some of the greatest western lineups ever assembled to get his. At no point in his career has he been even the best player on his team.
Forgiven is in the mix but literally every negative you can bring up about DL applies doubly to Forgiven, and DL is a far more flexible player. Their mechanics are a wash.
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an ATG discussion.
Sneaky is a good player but worse mechanically and was enhanced by a much better team.
Altec has shown promise but hasn't delivered the same level of performance for the same period of time.
Freeze is actually a decent shout but he's never really delivered for long periods either, though his struggle has been titanic.
Whether he's the best western ADC right now is debatable. Whether he's the greatest western ADC of all time really isn't.
Genja? Yellowstar? Hell even Yellowpete who was bad but actually managed to accomplish things or even Chaox lol? Dlift has accomplished absolutely nothing in this whole career. He can't be the greatest Western ADC of all time. Losers can't hold that title. I can understand making a statement that he's possibly the best adc that's had a long career but that's vastly different to saying he's the greatest of all time.
I guess it makes sense if you ignore 3+ seasons of league and only ever talk about the last year/two which judging by your list that's the case. Doublelift has basically been propelled to Godhood by people taking the fact that he's never won anything as some kind of training weights. They say "he's never been on a good team yet he's so good" then extrapolate that to "he's the best ADC ever due looking good on bad teams forever". It's sad. He's a good player but people can't seem to just settle with that. They have to always want more.
Using the metrics of results alone blow unless we're going to run around and say lilballz was better than diamondprox, cloudtemplar and insec in their S2 prime
Personally I'd say doublelift has had the highest individual peak skill of any western ADC but all time I'd probably have to take someone that's sustained results and high level play for a longer period of time than he has like Sneaky or Rekkles
On November 03 2015 21:38 Fusilero wrote: Using the metrics of results alone blow unless we're going to run around and say lilballz was better than diamondprox, cloudtemplar and insec in their S2 prime
Personally I'd say doublelift has had the highest individual peak skill of any western ADC but all time I'd probably have to take someone that's sustained results and high level play for a longer period of time than he has like Sneaky or Rekkles
Yea I'm fine with this. I think so too. His issue is he varies too much between amazing and god awful. Needs Chauster back for the consistency lol. My stance was just you can't be the greatest player of all time and never win anything.
Forgiven is in the mix but literally every negative you can bring up about DL applies doubly to Forgiven, and DL is a far more flexible player. Their mechanics are a wash.
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an ATG discussion.
So, Niels can't be best western adc right now, because he played for only one split? What?
Forgiven is in the mix but literally every negative you can bring up about DL applies doubly to Forgiven, and DL is a far more flexible player. Their mechanics are a wash.
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an ATG discussion.
So, Niels can't be best western adc right now, because he played for only one split? What?
On November 03 2015 21:24 Amarok wrote: People saying DL isn't the best western ADC of all time need to start naming names and justifying it. For me he's a no brainer for the title.
(...)
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an All Time Greatest discussion.
Forgiven is in the mix but literally every negative you can bring up about DL applies doubly to Forgiven, and DL is a far more flexible player. Their mechanics are a wash.
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an ATG discussion.
So, Niels can't be best western adc right now, because he played for only one split? What?
On November 03 2015 21:24 Amarok wrote: People saying DL isn't the best western ADC of all time need to start naming names and justifying it. For me he's a no brainer for the title.
(...)
Niels has only played half a season. Don't bring him into an All Time Greatest discussion.
Doublelift is an all star who will probably make it to the LoL hall of fame when he retires/riot makes one. He's been very good for a long time, but he's only been the best in NA for brief periods.
I think you can make a case for dlift in S2 and maybe S3, although I'd say wildturtle was better in summer. S4/S5 are all about Sneaky though, although I can see why someone would put Freeze or Niels ahead of him.
On November 03 2015 21:38 Fusilero wrote: Personally I'd say doublelift has had the highest individual peak skill of any western ADC but all time I'd probably have to take someone that's sustained results and high level play for a longer period of time than he has like Sneaky or Rekkles
What would you base this off though?
There was definitely a period where he was one of the most mechanically skilled adc players, but that was back in the s2 days when he would stomp lane, then do retarded stuff all game but survive by outplaying people through mechanics. Even in the "koreans scrim us purely to learn from out bot lane" days, he was winning lane and skirmishes through mechanics, then throwing or almost throwing games all over the place with his post laning decision making.
He might have been the most dominant western adc for a time, but I'd argue that's because he never faced any real competition, and as soon as people caught up to his mechanics he just became "another decent adc."
An argument for him being an "all time great" or something, in terms of some kind of fan hall of fame, but I wouldn't say even his peak was anywhere near the most skillful western adc ever.
The whole "look how comparatively good he was in s2" argument is great, but you wouldn't go calling ocelot or reginald the pinacle of mid lane, just because they had periods in s1/s2 when they destroyed people purely because everyone else was trash :p
Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy
I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time.
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy
I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time.
Doublelift has been playing for five years, and has been at the top or close to it for most of that time, skill-wise if not in terms of results. That's substantially different from jiji.
On November 04 2015 03:28 Sermokala wrote: I'm still not believing this has happened. I don't know what it means if it is though.
Oh this ship sailed long ago my friend. All that's left to decide is how you react to it.
On November 04 2015 04:25 ticklishmusic wrote: Looks like the Bjerg + Liftlift combo is attracting interest. Pros are literally getting in line to tryout for TSM lol.
Honestly it feels more like TSM is the only recruiting org that can actually promise to have a competitive team next split :p
Pretty much every other team (CLG, TL, C9, TIP, gravity etc) are either set rosters, or have a decent chance of being completely irrelevant next split. TSM is at least guaranteed to be semi decent. Also the fact they have two foreign spots still open means NA competition is much fiercer, since they're competing against the entire world rather then just other random NA challenger players.
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy
I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time.
Doublelift has been playing for five years, and has been at the top or close to it for most of that time, skill-wise if not in terms of results. That's substantially different from jiji.
And for a good 3-4 of those he wasn't even top 2 adc's in his own region, let alone "the west."
S2 he was pretty good, but his play at the time was still super suspect. He was very very far from the perfect player, and did dumb shit all the time. S3 they came in 4th and 6th in their region in lcs splits. Sneaky and wildturtle both arguably way better then double was. And this was with clg playing a "lets try and make doublelift look as good as possible" strat almost every game S4 turtle sneaky and now vasili all doing well in NA S5 He played decently in the summer split, but I really don't think he was "the best western adc" for any of this season compared to people like niels, rekkles, forgiven, freeze etc.
And then you look at someone like forgiven, who managed to near solo carry his entire team to first place in regular seasons, while eating 3 adc bans every game.
Dyrus was a beast in s1/s2, then managed to stay "close to the top" for another 3 years. And he's actually won tournaments through this entire time period (lots of them.) But I don't think anyone would really say he's the best top laner of all time.
On November 04 2015 04:25 ticklishmusic wrote: Looks like the Bjerg + Liftlift combo is attracting interest. Pros are literally getting in line to tryout for TSM lol.
Honestly it feels more like TSM is the only recruiting org that can actually promise to have a competitive team next split :p
Pretty much every other team (CLG, TL, C9, TIP, gravity etc) are either set rosters, or have a decent chance of being completely irrelevant next split. TSM is at least guaranteed to be semi decent. Also the fact they have two foreign spots still open means NA competition is much fiercer, since they're competing against the entire world rather then just other random NA challenger players.
On November 04 2015 02:40 Numy wrote: Hey now Reginald innovated the level 1 ignite non all in just to get the enemy laner scared! He was a genius ahead of his time. The real question is if Doublelift is hall of fame worthy does that mean Jiji is at the top? He was basically the Faker of midlane back in S1.
Nah, being dominant for 1 year doesn't make you hall of fame worthy
I mean, that's about what doublelift managed. Except regi also founded one of the major esports organisations that are around today at the same time.
Doublelift has been playing for five years, and has been at the top or close to it for most of that time, skill-wise if not in terms of results. That's substantially different from jiji.
And for a good 3-4 of those he wasn't even top 2 adc's in his own region, let alone "the west."
S2 he was pretty good, but his play at the time was still super suspect. He was very very far from the perfect player, and did dumb shit all the time. S3 they came in 4th and 6th in their region in lcs splits. Sneaky and wildturtle both arguably way better then double was. And this was with clg playing a "lets try and make doublelift look as good as possible" strat almost every game S4 turtle sneaky and now vasili all doing well in NA S5 He played decently in the summer split, but I really don't think he was "the best western adc" for any of this season compared to people like niels, rekkles, forgiven, freeze etc.
And then you look at someone like forgiven, who managed to near solo carry his entire team to first place in regular seasons, while eating 3 adc bans every game.
Dyrus was a beast in s1/s2, then managed to stay "close to the top" for another 3 years. And he's actually won tournaments through this entire time period (lots of them.) But I don't think anyone would really say he's the best top laner of all time.
Jokes?
In spring split there was a total of 7 ADC bans against SK before the team got exposed at IEM and only 4 after that. In spring playoffs he consistently drew 2 bans, but never 3.
In summer split there was a total of 9 ADC bans against Gambit, with a hefty portion being a standard Sivir ban.
Only time Forgiven received heavy target banning was Spring playoffs.
Never mind Forgiven fell off hugely when the meta shifted going into playoffs. It goes back to what I said about DL being adaptable. In the second half of his career DL has been perfectly happy playing what the team needed, and/or what the meta required. Forgiven looked great on Lucian and Graves but couldn't transition to a more supportive meta or a team where he wasn't #1 farm priority. That's a big black mark imo.
The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player.
Early on Dyrus was probably one of the better tops but he fell towards the mean later on and kind of oscillated between tiltmaster and kinda good for the last couple seasons. His 1v2 was pretty good though.
So another epic blunder of CLG revealed on DL's vlog. Aphro told CLG management they had to choose between him and Doublelift which is totally understandable. But to choose Aphro over the 100% committed player while Aphro has already publicly stated he'll be looking at his options after IEM is over is just hilariously stupid. I hope Hotshot loses Aphro as a business lesson now because that is just an enormously stupid decision on his part.
Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part.
Although from a fan perspective, I don't really have any reason left to support CLG now. I mean sure they'll probably be stronger than if Aphro left and Dlift stayed, but that won't make me want to cheer for CLG.
On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote: Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part.
... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise.
@bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such.
On November 04 2015 06:02 Amarok wrote: Never mind Forgiven fell off hugely when the meta shifted going into playoffs. It goes back to what I said about DL being adaptable. In the second half of his career DL has been perfectly happy playing what the team needed, and/or what the meta required. Forgiven looked great on Lucian and Graves but couldn't transition to a more supportive meta or a team where he wasn't #1 farm priority. That's a big black mark imo.
The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player.
I honestly think Forg1ven can be a top 3 adc in the world if he played more champions. If the meta is in his favor he's easily top 3 in the world. mechanically, he and bjergsen are the best players in the west and the only ones I'd put money on to beat out Korean players in their positions.
On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote: Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part.
... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise.
@bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such.
I feel like you only watched worlds to be able to make such a statement.
People sure seem to like to play down DL in this thread lol. There is no way he wasn't top 3 adc in the world S2 and while he has had his ups and downs he has always maintained at least top 4-6 adc in the west.
I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote: I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
On November 05 2015 12:55 North2 wrote: Well, to be fair Aphro has way more value in terms of skill while Dlift in his role for CLG was a replaceable part.
... really? Are we talking about the same Aphro who was essentially dead weight at Worlds and was generally pretty lackluster throughout the last split, being way more valuable than the best ADC in NA and the only player in the team that showed up at Worlds? I mean, sure, you could replace Doublelift with the likes of Niels or Rekkles or maybe even Sneaky, but that's still not what I'd call replaceable, and CLG is almost guaranteed to replace him with a player that's going to be a steep downgrade, skill-wise.
@bbc23: Agreed, at this point Hotshot deserves to lose both Aphro and Dlift with this level of management. I'm sure they'll release Zionspartan next to make room for Westrice or some such.
I feel like you only watched worlds to be able to make such a statement.
Dat bard tho. Whyyyyyyy
I feel like you only watched regular season to make such a statement. Dat Blitzcrank into Kennen.
Real talk though, Aphro is an excellent player but he's had issues in playoffs and other big games throughout his career. That's definitely a factor you have to take into account when evaluating him. Worlds was just yet another example. He's still a very valuable player, I wouldn't say HSGG is crazy for picking him (if it really was a simple Aphro or DL choice (I seriously doubt it was)) but suggesting Aphro has "way more value" than DL in terms of skill is way off base.
On November 04 2015 06:02 Amarok wrote: Never mind Forgiven fell off hugely when the meta shifted going into playoffs. It goes back to what I said about DL being adaptable. In the second half of his career DL has been perfectly happy playing what the team needed, and/or what the meta required. Forgiven looked great on Lucian and Graves but couldn't transition to a more supportive meta or a team where he wasn't #1 farm priority. That's a big black mark imo.
The comparison to Dyrus is also way off. LCS era Dyrus has been a solid player but never anywhere near a carry and in s5 he's been more of a liability than DL ever was for CLG. Dyrus doesn't get anywhere near the coversation on GOAT western top, partially because Soaz trumps him in literally every category but also because he's simply not a good enough player.
I honestly think Forg1ven can be a top 3 adc in the world if he played more champions. If the meta is in his favor he's easily top 3 in the world. mechanically, he and bjergsen are the best players in the west and the only ones I'd put money on to beat out Korean players in their positions.
Yeah completely agree with this. While I'd have DL as all time greatest western ADC right now it wouldn't surprise me if it was Forgiven in a few years time. So many of his fundamentals are top notch (mechanics, laning, positioning) really he only needs to improve his versatility and probably attitude (though it's hard for me to say as I don't know the guy).
Niels has been in half a competitive season outside of the CS, Sneaky has been around in three full seasons.
Niels is probably marginally better at the moment, but I'd pick up Sneaky 7 or 8 times out of 10 if given the choice.
It's a similar case with Dlift in comparison to any non-Sneaky/Rekkles western ADC right now. Aphro either is an S-tier motivator/team captain, or HSGG didn't think this through. Given history, I know what I'd go with, but I think it's possible Aphro could actually be that valuable behind the scenes.
Aphro played pretty damn well for having an toxic teammate as adc haha no seriously, i think aphros bad worlds performance could very well be caused by doublelift.
On November 06 2015 08:20 TitusVI wrote: Aphro played pretty damn well for having an toxic teammate as adc haha no seriously, i think aphros bad worlds performance could very well be caused by doublelift.
This seems suuuper farfetched to me. Everything points to Dlift's "bringing the team down" problem being ameliorated over time, and if Aphro played like shit at Worlds due to having one negative teammate then I have to bring Aphro's mental fortitude into question.
Aphro HAS been very good to be sure, easily #1 Support NA at times, but lately he just hasn't shown up. Recent-form Aphro has been pretty mediocre, even for NA standards.
By contrast, recent-form Doublelift places him as #1 NA IMO, yes better than Sneaky. Not as versatile as Niels so not #1 in the West, but still really good.
On November 06 2015 08:22 krndandaman wrote: I wish forgiven actually played kalista. it seems like such a forgiven-esque champ. wreck lane and snowball the shit out of it
You're speaking about guy who didn't play Sivir when Sivir and Forg1ven's alliance was probably assembled in heaven.
But yea, if it's right, Hotshot not only lost 80% of his fanbase, but he probably is going to lose Aphromoo as well, if not in Spring, then before Summer split.
Forgiven's a bit overly opinionated about design, I think. Too obstinate in his habits for his own good, which is why I struggle to rate him at all. He could want to play the next big ADC meta and clean house or he could keep playing the nonsense he wants to and be bottom-tier.
On November 06 2015 08:22 krndandaman wrote: I wish forgiven actually played kalista. it seems like such a forgiven-esque champ. wreck lane and snowball the shit out of it
You're speaking about guy who didn't play Sivir when Sivir and Forg1ven's alliance was probably assembled in heaven.
But yea, if it's right, Hotshot not only lost 80% of his fanbase, but he probably is going to lose Aphromoo as well, if not in Spring, then before Summer split.
I mean as silly as it is I can KINDA understand sivir since she's really boring and isn't very lane dominant. however kalista seems like forg1ven's kind of champion so it makes no sense to me.
A huge part of his strength is how insanely good at sidestepping skillshots he is. He might just really not like how much more "restrictive" your movement is on kalista.
You'll regularly see him making *tiny* sidesteps while teamfighting, without even impacting his dps at all, to dodge things. If you're used to being able to rely on doing that I could see how kalista would be absolutely horrible to play.
There's also the fact he's eternally stuck with teammates he thinks are trash. So him not wanting to play sivir, (and not wanting to have to rely so much on your support like kalista does) sort of makes sense.
On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote: I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
I suppose a lot of other ADCs didn't have the chance to bring a team down since their teams weren't that great either. I guess I'll throw him in with the 'everyone else' category also.
I dunno what the DL supporters saw in his performance at worlds tho.
On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote: I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
I mean, I'm a worse western adc then turtle, I wouldn't argue that.
The problem is you have some really really bad teams in LCS. I think people mean more "out of the players/teams that matter, turtle is the worst western adc" which I think isn't a completely unfair position to hold.
On November 06 2015 07:03 North2 wrote: I do think DL was top 3 in S2 and he is top 4-6 adc in the west...which to me is a replaceable part. Aphro on the other hand is top 2, if not the best in terms of skill.
Sneaky >> Niels=Rekkles > everyone else > Turtle is how I look at the western ADC pool. I may be missing a few standouts from the EU scene since I don't watch them too often, but there aren't any other ADCs in the western ADC scene that wows me.
DL could be ahead of Niels and Rekkles if he stopped getting caught in random places that are mostly just poor route choices or even basic precautions like not hugging the wall close enough. If he can just fix this he would be Top 2 and an irreplaceable member...but he has had this problem for 4 full seasons now.
Not that Turtle is a world class ADC, but if you seriously think he's the worst western AD you need to get your head checked.
I mean, I'm a worse western adc then turtle, I wouldn't argue that.
The problem is you have some really really bad teams in LCS. I think people mean more "out of the players/teams that matter, turtle is the worst western adc" which I think isn't a completely unfair position to hold.
Well then people should probably do a better job of getting their points across.
Also Vardags. Woolite was also a player on a (otherwise decent) team not that long ago.
Listening to all the drama over the past few days got me thinking. Aphromoo still claims to be Doubles friend even after going out of his way to have him removed from CLG, how is this? Knowing such a conundrum could only be solved in the shower, I rushed there immediately. Where upon I arrived at the following conclusion, observe these facts: 1) Coach Chris is removed from CLG. 2) The Yung POB is benched from the starting roster, leading to his departure from the team. 3) Zion was actively looking for other options as evidenced by his tryout with TSM. Observing the following and realizing that the management was on a collision course to going full CLG, Aphromoo did the only thing he could and decide to leave the team. BUT! He knew that Doublelift would never leave CLG, his loyalty too great. And so Aphro devised a plan to orchestrate the removal of Doublelift from CLG, thusly freeing his best friend from his obligations to the team and allowing him finally to move on and save him from another season of the CLG Failtrain. His work concluded, Aphromoo now quietly entertains other options from teams around the LCS, content in his knowledge that while Peter may have been hurt by his actions, he was ultimately his unknowing savior. TL;DR- Aphromoo true support to the end.
imaqtpie reflects on reflections with Thoorin where HotshotGG reflects about Doublelift
They're so blindly fanboying Doublelift, man. Dude, if you want to know how Doublelift is, go ask his fucking former teammates. Go ask—please—ask Seraph what he thinks of Doublelift. Not even as a player, ask him what he thinks of him as a person. I'd love for Seraph to give an actual answer on that one. Yeah, or Link, dude. Dude, give it to—ask anyone. I wish that people weren't so fucking, like, blind to their fanboyisms. It's fucking disgusting reading that thread. People are so fucking stupid, man. People on Reddit have their heads so far shoved up their ass, man. I feel for Hotshot.
Doublelift going to learn that grass isnt always greener on the other side. Rekkles also went through this but DL's going to be ten times worse because his boss is Reginald.
They're so blindly fanboying Doublelift, man. Dude, if you want to know how Doublelift is, go ask his fucking former teammates. Go ask—please—ask Seraph what he thinks of Doublelift. Not even as a player, ask him what he thinks of him as a person. I'd love for Seraph to give an actual answer on that one. Yeah, or Link, dude. Dude, give it to—ask anyone. I wish that people weren't so fucking, like, blind to their fanboyisms. It's fucking disgusting reading that thread. People are so fucking stupid, man. People on Reddit have their heads so far shoved up their ass, man. I feel for Hotshot.
So he is telling his fanboys to not blindly believe DL and to blindly believe Hotshot despite not being in the scene for a year+. Aight qt.
On November 07 2015 08:54 Mensol wrote: Doublelift going to learn that grass isnt always greener on the other side. Rekkles also went through this but DL's going to be ten times worse because his boss is Reginald.
In other words, I cant wait for TSM Legends.
CLG has had tons of conflict the past 4 years. Better to work for the guy who knows how to grow his business than the guy who just admitted at times he was more focused on his streaming than team and acts like a 10 year old.
The reality of these kinds of situations is usually that both people were assholes. He's just saying Reddit's painting HSGG as the worst guy in this fiasco when that's probably not true.
You know, the CLG jersey in the trash reminded me of something then I remember, it was like Alundra Blaze/Madusa dumping the WWF women's title in the trash on WCW.
They're so blindly fanboying Doublelift, man. Dude, if you want to know how Doublelift is, go ask his fucking former teammates. Go ask—please—ask Seraph what he thinks of Doublelift. Not even as a player, ask him what he thinks of him as a person. I'd love for Seraph to give an actual answer on that one. Yeah, or Link, dude. Dude, give it to—ask anyone. I wish that people weren't so fucking, like, blind to their fanboyisms. It's fucking disgusting reading that thread. People are so fucking stupid, man. People on Reddit have their heads so far shoved up their ass, man. I feel for Hotshot.
So he is telling his fanboys to not blindly believe DL and to blindly believe Hotshot despite not being in the scene for a year+. Aight qt.
Bruh I think that's your fanboyism leaking out. qtpie is only implying not to believe either of them. I'd wager that qtpie knows about as much as we do about this whole fiasco, which is virtually nothing. He's simply stating that HSGG shouldn't be flamed when we don't know shit about what really happened yet.
They're so blindly fanboying Doublelift, man. Dude, if you want to know how Doublelift is, go ask his fucking former teammates. Go ask—please—ask Seraph what he thinks of Doublelift. Not even as a player, ask him what he thinks of him as a person. I'd love for Seraph to give an actual answer on that one. Yeah, or Link, dude. Dude, give it to—ask anyone. I wish that people weren't so fucking, like, blind to their fanboyisms. It's fucking disgusting reading that thread. People are so fucking stupid, man. People on Reddit have their heads so far shoved up their ass, man. I feel for Hotshot.
So he is telling his fanboys to not blindly believe DL and to blindly believe Hotshot despite not being in the scene for a year+. Aight qt.
Bruh I think that's your fanboyism leaking out. qtpie is only implying not to believe either of them. I'd wager that qtpie knows about as much as we do about this whole fiasco, which is virtually nothing. He's simply stating that HSGG shouldn't be flamed when we don't know shit about what really happened yet.
I think qtpie has more of an idea of how DL is to deal with then reddit. Pro gamers talk amongst themselves you know and its very likely some who have actually worked with DLift have told him (qtpie) what an ass DL is.
They're so blindly fanboying Doublelift, man. Dude, if you want to know how Doublelift is, go ask his fucking former teammates. Go ask—please—ask Seraph what he thinks of Doublelift. Not even as a player, ask him what he thinks of him as a person. I'd love for Seraph to give an actual answer on that one. Yeah, or Link, dude. Dude, give it to—ask anyone. I wish that people weren't so fucking, like, blind to their fanboyisms. It's fucking disgusting reading that thread. People are so fucking stupid, man. People on Reddit have their heads so far shoved up their ass, man. I feel for Hotshot.
So he is telling his fanboys to not blindly believe DL and to blindly believe Hotshot despite not being in the scene for a year+. Aight qt.
Bruh I think that's your fanboyism leaking out. qtpie is only implying not to believe either of them. I'd wager that qtpie knows about as much as we do about this whole fiasco, which is virtually nothing. He's simply stating that HSGG shouldn't be flamed when we don't know shit about what really happened yet.
Hotshot deserves the criticism for coming out with stuff that doesn't correlate to anything the TSM owner or HIS OWN TEAMS CEO has said and being completely thin skinned about anything Doublelift did. I mean he was really pissed off about Doublelift making a joke out of throwing the CLG jersey in the trash.
Doublelift has publicly said he was a bad teammate and an asshole, there's nothing new there.
Hotshot just gave his perception on what happened. To me, it was very clear he's emotionally heavily invested and his stories reflect that. I think you're right that his stuff was (almost completely) uncorrelated with what mylixia said (the only thing i could find was this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snpgqn ), but the two were (mostly) talking about different things, so that's to be expected.
Both hotshot and doublelift have been making public statements while being emotionally unstable. Criticizing one more than the other for that sounds to me like being a fanboy of the other.
On November 08 2015 06:21 Yorbon wrote: Hotshot just gave his perception on what happened. To me, it was very clear he's emotionally heavily invested and his stories reflect that. I think you're right that his stuff was (almost completely) uncorrelated with what mylixia said (the only thing i could find was this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snpgqn ), but the two were (mostly) talking about different things, so that's to be expected.
Both hotshot and doublelift have been making public statements while being emotionally unstable. Criticizing one more than the other for that sounds to me like being a fanboy of the other.
Difference is, LiftLift acknowledged he was pissed off, also said numerous times he wished nothing but the best for CLG. He told people to still watch and root for CLG, and he even said he thought they would be a better team because they have an amazing staff.
NidaleeGG literally said nothing positive about liftlift that he wasn't forced to acknowledge because of Thorin's question.
Not to mention, one is a player, one is a CEO. You have to act differently in these roles. If a service rep says some stupid shit, whatever he might just be pissed off cuz he lost his raise due to being late or some shit. If the CEO says some stupid shit, you know the corporate culture is rotten to the core. There is a reason most CEO's never sit in front of a camera and always just release pre-fabricated press-releases the PR team wrote.
That is just how the world works. You expect different responses from a Lebron James than you would if Len Komoroski were to be asked the same questions. There is a reason for that.
So as far as 'why an owner desperately needs a PR filter' goes, how many Dan Gilbert Letters does this rate as?
(Dan Gilbert being the owner of the NBA team Cleveland Cavaliers; he wrote a public letter after LeBron left the first time.... it's fondly remembered as a joke by the general NBA fandom to this day. A copy of the letter can be read here)
On November 08 2015 08:36 Saradin wrote: So as far as 'why an owner desperately needs a PR filter' goes, how many Dan Gilbert Letters does this rate as?
(Dan Gilbert being the owner of the NBA team Cleveland Cavaliers; he wrote a public letter after LeBron left the first time.... it's fondly remembered as a joke by the general NBA fandom to this day. A copy of the letter can be read here)
Great comparison. Gilbert was never able to put a competent roster around James his 1st time around pretty much like Hotshot minus the last split for the 1st time in 4 years. Only difference is that DL was kicked and James left for a better team (though I suppose both did leave for better team because I'd much rather trust the team led by Pat Riley over Dan Gilbert and the comic sans crew).
I feel like hotshotgg getting mad at the shirt thing is idiotic. It's like when Alundra Blayze / Madusa threw the WWF Women's title in the trash on WCW Nitro saying she's now in the better organization.
On November 08 2015 06:21 Yorbon wrote: Hotshot just gave his perception on what happened. To me, it was very clear he's emotionally heavily invested and his stories reflect that. I think you're right that his stuff was (almost completely) uncorrelated with what mylixia said (the only thing i could find was this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snpgqn ), but the two were (mostly) talking about different things, so that's to be expected.
Both hotshot and doublelift have been making public statements while being emotionally unstable. Criticizing one more than the other for that sounds to me like being a fanboy of the other.
Difference is, LiftLift acknowledged he was pissed off, also said numerous times he wished nothing but the best for CLG. He told people to still watch and root for CLG, and he even said he thought they would be a better team because they have an amazing staff.
NidaleeGG literally said nothing positive about liftlift that he wasn't forced to acknowledge because of Thorin's question.
Not to mention, one is a player, one is a CEO. You have to act differently in these roles. If a service rep says some stupid shit, whatever he might just be pissed off cuz he lost his raise due to being late or some shit. If the CEO says some stupid shit, you know the corporate culture is rotten to the core. There is a reason most CEO's never sit in front of a camera and always just release pre-fabricated press-releases the PR team wrote.
That is just how the world works. You expect different responses from a Lebron James than you would if Len Komoroski were to be asked the same questions. There is a reason for that.
I felt that Hotshott took a looooot of credit for things that I am not sure if just BS. He also really painted himself as extremely misunderstood and victimized by almost everyone and really did not give any positive qualities to anyone he has had beef with in the past. Even a lot of his compliments were kind of backhanded to people like Regi. Could be that he just doesn't know how to properly express his thoughts but He came off as being very "The world has shafted me greatly" while also teasing about leaking "the real stories" about what happened behind the scenes. But no you guys he is totally being the bigger man and taking the high road rofl. All he did was say "yea DL is a monster, but because I won't tell you the specifics I am being the better man even though he betrayed me".
That being said, I actually liked the end where he stated his new goals and vision for the team and the overall ideology behind it (if it isn't just for the PR).
On November 08 2015 13:53 amd098 wrote: I feel like hotshotgg getting mad at the shirt thing is idiotic. It's like when Alundra Blayze / Madusa threw the WWF Women's title in the trash on WCW Nitro saying she's now in the better organization.
...That was (arguably) the start of the monday night wars. It's terrible example to use if you're trying to make the point that "getting mad about it is idiotic".
On November 08 2015 13:53 amd098 wrote: I feel like hotshotgg getting mad at the shirt thing is idiotic. It's like when Alundra Blayze / Madusa threw the WWF Women's title in the trash on WCW Nitro saying she's now in the better organization.
...That was (arguably) the start of the monday night wars. It's terrible example to use if you're trying to make the point that "getting mad about it is idiotic".
Actually the start of the monday night wars was hogan going over to WCW, but more when Hall/Nash appeared and the nWo took ratings from Raw for the first time. But look at it from a business standpoint, Vince was pissed but did he go on Raw and rant? No he developed his brand better. Hotshot/ff is not helping his brand by ranting and screaming, then saying he has proof... then deleting all his posts hoping no one screenshotted them. He's ruining the image of his organisation by himself.
On November 08 2015 15:34 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On November 08 2015 13:53 amd098 wrote: I feel like hotshotgg getting mad at the shirt thing is idiotic. It's like when Alundra Blayze / Madusa threw the WWF Women's title in the trash on WCW Nitro saying she's now in the better organization.
...That was (arguably) the start of the monday night wars. It's terrible example to use if you're trying to make the point that "getting mad about it is idiotic".
Actually the start of the monday night wars was hogan going over to WCW, but more when Hall/Nash appeared and the nWo took ratings from Raw for the first time. But look at it from a business standpoint, Vince was pissed but did he go on Raw and rant? No he developed his brand better. Hotshot/ff is not helping his brand by ranting and screaming, then saying he has proof... then deleting all his posts hoping no one screenshotted them. He's ruining the image of his organisation by himself.
I agree with you, but I think your example doesn't really make this point, since your explanation highlighted the significant differences between the two situations rather than the similarities.
If you just wanted to talk about this specific moment in wrestling, which I suspect is the case because you posted it twice on this page, then that's cool. It was a cool moment. Doublelift didn't do as good a job with it as Alundra Blayze, though, imo.
Are we really comparing this to a scripted wrestling 'feud'? What's next, comparing Dyrus to that one time on the Bold and the Beautiful where Jack went to stream full time?
On November 08 2015 06:21 Yorbon wrote: Hotshot just gave his perception on what happened. To me, it was very clear he's emotionally heavily invested and his stories reflect that. I think you're right that his stuff was (almost completely) uncorrelated with what mylixia said (the only thing i could find was this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snpgqn ), but the two were (mostly) talking about different things, so that's to be expected.
Both hotshot and doublelift have been making public statements while being emotionally unstable. Criticizing one more than the other for that sounds to me like being a fanboy of the other.
Difference is, LiftLift acknowledged he was pissed off, also said numerous times he wished nothing but the best for CLG. He told people to still watch and root for CLG, and he even said he thought they would be a better team because they have an amazing staff.
NidaleeGG literally said nothing positive about liftlift that he wasn't forced to acknowledge because of Thorin's question.
Not to mention, one is a player, one is a CEO. You have to act differently in these roles. If a service rep says some stupid shit, whatever he might just be pissed off cuz he lost his raise due to being late or some shit. If the CEO says some stupid shit, you know the corporate culture is rotten to the core. There is a reason most CEO's never sit in front of a camera and always just release pre-fabricated press-releases the PR team wrote.
That is just how the world works. You expect different responses from a Lebron James than you would if Len Komoroski were to be asked the same questions. There is a reason for that.
I felt that Hotshott took a looooot of credit for things that I am not sure if just BS. He also really painted himself as extremely misunderstood and victimized by almost everyone and really did not give any positive qualities to anyone he has had beef with in the past. Even a lot of his compliments were kind of backhanded to people like Regi. Could be that he just doesn't know how to properly express his thoughts but He came off as being very "The world has shafted me greatly" while also teasing about leaking "the real stories" about what happened behind the scenes. But no you guys he is totally being the bigger man and taking the high road rofl. All he did was say "yea DL is a monster, but because I won't tell you the specifics I am being the better man even though he betrayed me".
That being said, I actually liked the end where he stated his new goals and vision for the team and the overall ideology behind it (if it isn't just for the PR).
... reading your post, I can't argue with it; all of it sounds spot-on. That said, Hotshot being super negative is kind of expected if he's in a spot where his team is obviously going through a painful adjustment process which will leave CLG far weaker than it used to be- a process that isn't even over, with the possibility of also losing Zion to TSM and Aphro to whoever. Heck, he even admitted that he wasn't fit, emotionally, to perform as a manager at CLG until the start of the Spring Split, and delegated all of his duties until then. Hotshot is one of the biggest losers of this preseason.
On November 09 2015 18:17 Mikau wrote: Are we really comparing this to a scripted wrestling 'feud'?
Not quite, no. The "monday night wars" was a real competition between WWF and WCW (separate rival companies) in which both of their flagship shows competed for ratings on the same timeslot, with the two companies frequently trying to one-up each other either through adapting/improving their respective shows (ie the attitude era) or through less savvy measures (WWF more-or-less banning Alundra Blayze for life (which was recently undone)), and often acknowledging that the other company / program existed.
Basically, Alundra Blayze (Doublelift) went over to a rival company (TSM), changed her name to Madusa (TSM.Doublelift?) and the head person, Eric Bischoff (Regi) said "throw the title (T-shirt) in the trash on camera, it'll rile people up" so she did it and it did.
...Then WCW's women's division (Auto-relegation) turned into a joke and Madusa was fired early and then retired, but here's hoping Doublelift can also become a monster truck driver!
Ok so I wrote my last post when I was 75% done with watching that Hotshot interview, and HOOOOOOLY SHIT but does he lay bare how completely inept he is at management towards the end:
HotshotGG said: "One of the things I set up was, I put everybody into 1-year contracts and I didn't re-sign them in the middle of the split- and I did that very intentionally. I was like, these guys, I know they're way better than they are, I know that CLG's gonna succeed when we win MSG, I know that everything's gonna go great, and we're gonna make a lot of money on the organization side because of all the success. And I want these players to, to get a hold of that. I want them to be a part of that success. So I did not re-sign them so that they could get fair market value for their position, and I was ready to fight for each one of my players. And I did fight, because, this is why it's a curse, right? Because half of the, half of the talent pool in NA was locked to 2-4 years. CLG, the winners of MSG, were locked down to just the end of the year. I had every LCS owner, I had European owners, I had, uh, owners that aren't even in LCS contact me for every one of my players. And, I could've just voided all that if I just went to them in the middle of the split and went like, "hey guys, here's a little raise"- but I opted out of doing that and I got screwed so bad emotionally and it was, it was, it was a rough time.
You keep business and friendship separate. Period. This is management 101, Hotshot. In business, you ALWAYS look out for #1 (yourself), because NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO LOOK AFTER YOU OR YOUR INTERESTS. Hell, no one else even knows what your interests are if you don't tell them. In business negotiations, you want to keep in mind your counterpart's stated interests so that you can offer something valuable to them, but ALWAYS in exchange for something that's valuable to you. If you sign your players a 1-year contract because you want them to aspire to "fair market value", how are your players going to take it? Maybe they think you're going to sell the team after once that year's done. Maybe they think you have little faith in them and want to sign new players after that year's done. And even if you tell them that you just want the best for them, and want them to aspire to fair market value? Hell, if my boss told me that, I'd call bullshit. What if my stock drops by when that year is up? Sure, I'll get fair market value, but that might be a spot on a Challenger team for no pay. You know what players like Bjergsen on TSM get for being "locked down" for several years? Job security, Hotshot. That's what you weren't offering to your own players.
So, it turns that CLG's players' stock goes up after all by when their contracts are over. Well, that means that they get to reap the benefits, and if the players are smart, they're gonna look out after their own interests, nevermind all your good intentions for "not locking them down". You don't even know that not being locked down was important to your players at the time! That's why you negotiate with them. If they really wanted the freedom to look at alternative teams by the end of 2015, then they would've expressed as much in your negotiations with them- or maybe they'd rather have job security with longer contracts instead. But you should let THEM tell you what their preference is in this regard, you don't decide for them because you think you have their best interests in mind. You negotiate for your own interests, they negotiate for theirs, and you reach a satisfactory agreement where both sides get what they actually care about, not what you think they want. If what YOU want is to keep these players, then you negotiate long contracts. If you want your players to share in the spoils of victory if they win MSG, then you add a clause that states they get a nice, fat bonus if that happens. If you want to give them even more money after that because you think they deserve it, you're free to do so. Instead, Hotshot decides that, in the best interests of his players, he's gonna shoot himself in the foot, and then feels betrayed when his foot hurts and he can't walk right.
Also? I really, really don't buy the whole "Oh yeah, I knew we were gonna win MSG all along, I just signed short contracts because I was looking out for the players." For a team that had faced two relegations series and no LCS finals, I call bullshit on that- on some level, Hotshot wanted short contracts as well because he wasn't sure he could keep on paying the players if CLG lost their LCS spot. Either way, you really couldn't ask for a clearer example of Hotshot being absolutely terrible at management.
Hotshot clearly needs to hire a professional CEO (and maybe a PR guy). Paying a couple competent guys 6 figures ea would be literally the best investment he could make in CLG.
Ah yea, I agree with you TheHumanSensation. Could have been a bit better, though most likely liftx2 will do better than Madusa.
Hotshot's issue was that he's an owner but acts like a player. You can't do that, it showed him as unprofessional and childish and made whatever issues liftx2's statements had seem trivial now.
He wanted them to earn more money if they won and so didn't renew the contract? Surely you can add clauses for bonus pay if they win or worst case re-negotiate the contract at a later date.
Even if you argue from his position it makes no sense Oo
EPT
C 
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