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On February 21 2014 01:17 Alaric wrote:
He thinks healing is bad because it provides sustain which enforces passivity because if you don't have similar sustain you'll slowly lose so you won't want to trade.
'cause 20s base cd heals are totes sustain healing and not burst. I mean, the reasoning could be sound, but there's so much shit they always leave to the side; maybe if they addressed it they'd have sensible points that'd make us agree, but they never even bother acknowledging the topics (like with their hugeass support feedback thread at the end of s3: spout shit about how support is boring because not enough gold and you have no impact? Full-blown responses. Mention the scales of cost vs slot-efficiency for items, kits base values as opposed to scaling, and budget? It's like you never posted at all.).
Tbh it annoys me way more than, say, server stability, because saying "we're working on it" every 10 minutes won't make the servers suddenly feel better, however when they come to players to hear their opinions you'd expect them to actually listen over hand pick the shit that goes in their direction.
^ killerdog: well Soraka can instantly silence the LB going in. Lulu can try to W her but in the midgame she'll output enough damage during the projectle's flying time that her target it still likely to die.
v why the heck would you spam AP on Soraka anyway? She gets way more out of CDR, rylai and some survivability.
But that is just a saying, he doesn't identify any mechanism that would make it enforce passivity. Why, for instance wouldnt you trade more often than every 20 seconds?
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Simple : you need to have the means of forcing trade at least once per heal, while having the potential to beat their damage output+the heal's value, otherwise you slowly lose. It also means that if you fall behind once you may as well go back to passive farming or to fountain since you won't be able to reverse the situation if the sustain dudes already have a health lead.
Killerdog, that's how Dignitas got Lulu and Soraka gutted at (iirc) IPL5. Soraka mid, Lulu top, Mundo jungle, Kog'Maw+either Taric or Janna bot. Enough to keep Kog alive through a lot, but reaching Kog would have meant going though Mundo (meta wasn't assassins-focused at the time) and channeling the heal/shielding power on him instead allowed him to initiate by just burning ult at full health and walking into the enemy team.
Then, while they're trying to deal with him, they have Kog'Maw damage shitting on them from behind the wall.
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On February 21 2014 01:22 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 01:21 Ghost-z wrote:On February 21 2014 01:09 wei2coolman wrote:On February 20 2014 18:24 Scip wrote:
Are you sure about darius support in double bruiser lanes? Usually we play a combination something like J4/Leona/Lee Sin/Wu Kong/Pantheon, haven't tried Darius yet. Although it sounds good in theory, might try it out. Since the topic of dual bruiser botlane is way cooler than the past 8 pages. I find support darius to be the best choice in dual bruiser botlane, common combination I use with it is lee sin/darius, j4/darius, panth/darius. The reason I really like darius is he does immense amounts of damage without having to build damage item, so he live off of just trinket gold, and the pull is a great follow up cc. I know jatt duo queues and does Darius+maokai botlane. But I tried it out and it felt terrible as the maokai player, cuz no mana, ever. Darius seems like he could be a legit counter to Leona. Is that only in lane? or does he also continue to work through the mid/late game (assuming you didn't just dumpster bot and snowball off it.) If the leona lane just stays at max range and farms, you don't really have any way to force the engage (short of way overextending, and being open to ganks due to no cc/escapes) and a midgame, underleveled leona with no items is probably better then a mdigame, underleveled darius with no items.
Well Darius should be able to maintain brush control against Leona if she wants to just farm which lends her adc in hook range when trying to CS. A bruiser capable of farming from range like Lee/J4/Panth who also bring some CC should work nicely. I would imagine this works well against short range ADC.
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On February 21 2014 01:34 Alaric wrote:
Simple : you need to have the means of forcing trade at least once per heal, while having the potential to beat their damage output+the heal's value, otherwise you slowly lose. It also means that if you fall behind once you may as well go back to passive farming or to fountain since you won't be able to reverse the situation if the sustain dudes already have a health lead.
Killerdog, that's how Dignitas got Lulu and Soraka gutted at (iirc) IPL5. Soraka mid, Lulu top, Mundo jungle, Kog'Maw+either Taric or Janna bot. Enough to keep Kog alive through a lot, but reaching Kog would have meant going though Mundo (meta wasn't assassins-focused at the time) and channeling the heal/shielding power on him instead allowed him to initiate by just burning ult at full health and walking into the enemy team.
Then, while they're trying to deal with him, they have Kog'Maw damage shitting on them from behind the wall.
Man. That comp was what made me love LoL. Such a brilliantly crafted composition by Dig. Who knew that a 6k hp kog would shit on everyone?
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I could be wrong about this, but Soraka's Q is slightly shorter than her auto. Auto+Q harass feels kind of hard and definitely not as intuitive as Sona's auto+Q+empoweredAuto.
I tried to play max Q first Soraka support many times this season , but I can't seem to be able to win against any players remotely competent. It is a shame because I really like Soraka's ticking timebomb kind of playstyle with her Q.
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Wait did everyone forget what pre nerf soraka did to bot lane? Turned it into the most boring lane in the game. You couldn't really try and kill a soraka lane unless they screwed up badly, your jungler could rarely get anything done ganking a Soraka lane because she's just going to silence/heal your target and they gunna walk away and if you where the jungler for a Soraka lane you didn't want to go bot because Soraka doesn't do anything to help you kill the lane other then the possibility of letting you play more ham due to insane heal armor buff.
Was about as fun to play as watching a painting of a unicorn dry. I dunno I generally agree with the soraka/sustain supports are bad idea. They explained it ages ago I am sure you could find it with some digging. I'am fine with them being around I just don't want them turning bot lane into a boring "lalaa you can't kill me" like before.
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On February 20 2014 23:21 Sarah Bryant wrote:[ Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 22:57 killerdog wrote:It's not that people here don't like "new ideas," it's that we don't like wasting lots and lots of pages arguing semantics. If you want to suggest something special or theory crafty, be prepared to defend it with hard evidence, and if you can't provide that then don't drag the discussion on for 10 pages, crushing all other discussion in the process. What I've gotten from this is SB: I like support warwick, it's pretty good. TL: It seems really bad, do you have any proof? SB: I'm diamond 1 and have a smurf TL: Hey, I'm diamond one, wanna duo and show me? SB: It doesn't work at diamond 1, but i'll win with it on my platinum account TL: So you can pubstomp with it, does that mean it's viable? SB: No, but it means it's really good against people not diamond 1? TL: But you're diamond 1, you could win against plat people with any champion, what basis is that for saying ww is good SB: I thought this was a good community, but you're all close minded people who call anyone creative trolls  shows up. T.T That's not how it went at all buddy, it's like this Many ages ago: someone comes and put ww support idea, no one seem to like the idea and that guy. So most people remember ww support as something bad, awful, and doesn't want to talk about that. Me: hi i like ww support you should try it in s4, it's not that good but fun and legit. TL: LOL this troll no it sucks because bad lane/better picks, technically correct, if its worse than nearly everything else it's bad, that's the definition of bad. just because you can do well with it doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's not unplayably bad Me: True, i listed those in my post...he's not fotm or top pick but hey he got... every champion has strengths, listing strengths of the champion is pointless. I can list the strengths of crit garen with sightstone first item . A champion is good if its strengths make it good enough to be worth picking over another champ. TL: NO WOOD 5 PLAYER/TROLL/THAT GUY FROM BEFORE Me: Uh i'm not really wood 5 and i made it work across all levels.. TL: Sure buddy sure proofs of your account now or you aren't Me: okay here TL: whoos okay you are diamond, you could win plat people with any champion, what basis is that for saying ww is good? Me: As i explained but no one bother to read, he got good kit. As buff, vision, ganks, damage, can abuse easily every misstep. You can do good on any level without the need to super outplay like troll supports you can do good on loads of troll supports without having to "super outplay". You can list all the strengths of support kayle if you want, and do well without "super outplaying" people.
It's not that people are ignoring you, it's just they are reading what you are saying and finding it to be subjective//non relevant//looking at your champ in a vaccuum and not in comparision to other champ TL: hmm well uh.. PROOFS OF YOUR WW ACCOUNT Me: Nah but i'll play with anyone and they can record it and post about it here. TL: Nope except anyone who wants to play with you is too high elo apparently Me: I thought this was a good community, but you're all close minded people who call anyone creative trolls [b] burden of proof is on the one who states the hypothesis, its not up to us to disprove that warwick is good, otherwise we'd all be religious fanatics or something.. In fact it's impossible to prove that he's bad because its play dependent so your losing games doesn't prove anything. Like i said, i will show it in game, at [almost] every skill level, that's called defending it. Screenshot wont do with you people.
you still didn't respond to the fact that a diamond player can stomp lower people with most anything they are good at so your so called defense isn't viable evidence And also, like i said 500 times, i'm ready to move over..i didn't even advocate it anywhere in this thread to begin with until someone called me a troll for a message on a diffrant topic, just because he rememberd my post on ww from another section of the site.
I'll do a cheep on this one and respond in bold inside your quote
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this discussion is well past being any sort of productive...maybe it's time to just let it go
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On February 20 2014 20:23 Sarah Bryant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
I think the discussion has very little to do with warwick at the moment and is a lot more related to what sponkz was talking about with the "T.R.O.L.L.S" thing.
"But from this to make me a troll, say i'm awful, laugh at the idea without even testing and treating me like i try to sell you people thresh 2.0 is awkward"
well as for thresh 2.0, if people misinterpret you constantly despite you trying to explain there's some kind of clash of views and not just a communication breakdown (dundnudnudnudnu DEN DEN DEN)
If the idea is to do it for fun, naturally people won't want to test it if the idea doesn't seem fun to them, so you can't force your opinion of fun onto them.
You sohludn't blame people for laughing either when warwick's lane phase is pretty horrible and thus the reasons for playing him support over somewhere else are few and far between but if you are playing for fun you don't care about that so much.
As for troll accusations refusing to show stats on accounts seems completely nonsensical because I can't think of any reason not to show stats on accounts I don't see what you have to hide.
"I don't like using "good at all levels "arguments too, but i used it because i really feel the vast majority of people will be able[in my opinion] to do it on thier own skill level with good play, rise in ranks."
I believe peopel can play pretty much anything and with good play rise in ranks.
"So of course it means i'm not good enough to make ww work at d1...it's my own skill that needs to be greater. And, i feel that he have huge flaws that prevent him from doing good at that level only, but that may be only me."
Me saying you aren't good enough to do well with warwick in D1 isn't the same as saying you aren't good enough to reach diamond 1. I couldn't reach diamond 1 with ADC at least without tons of improvement while doing it but it has little to do with my skill at other roles.
There isn't a skill level that translates to every champ. You have a certain skill level and a lot of it is champ specific. Because warwick has so many problems, you have to outskill to overcome them, and whne oppoents get better at abusing your pick you have to get better at abusing your strengths and minimizing your weaknesses, and that isn't easy to do.
Because you are playing warwick on smurf accounts it somewhat delegitimizes any claims you make because the very fact that you are diamond on your main account proves that you are out playing your opponents on warwick and your perception of not playing well shouldn't apply because a diamond players perception of playing well is completely different from say a gold levels perception. Of course this isnt easy, those are my exact words and why i feel he's not legit only at the top level. Some champs are better than others...sure you can pick soraka in d1 and win with her, but you are putting yourself at a bad spot, ww is the same...only for proper zone and lane bullying i cant find good answer yet. like i said, i win vs low diamonds too and it works fine, [which, you may argue, stil means shit because low diamonds are meh], but it does gives alot of people from almost all skill levels the chance of doing it.
Some champs are better than others. You say warwick is a bad champ. Everyone agrees, what's the problem.
A champion is never troll. A troll pick is a pick by someone who doesn't want to win the game and wants to make his teammates angry on purpose. That pick is usually a champ that is slightly worse than more mainstream champs. Warwick would fit this, so you could troll pick support warwick.
Also you say stuff like kennen suppor tand yorick support is troll, but there are tons of pros I could list for them.
On February 20 2014 21:32 Sarah Bryant wrote:
The diffrence is you will find something to make it look bad as you do now after i already shown my account. So i want someone to confirm it himself and report about it here.
You seem to be really scared that people here aren't objective, but your constant lack of anything objective is the reason you've gotten all this hate in the first place.
On February 20 2014 21:24 Sarah Bryant wrote:
I'll only show it in game, after all, i did provide my account but this doesnt stop the hate. Maybe i fake it?, maybe i played all the ww at silver level and went up with the other champs?, can i be sure this bashing will stop?..nope.
So it'll have to be in game, i can get a silver na account if this help some who wants, ping excuses won't apply.
You provided your account with no warwick games, so why would that "stop the hate".
People aren't "bashing you" unreasonably. Anybody could come in and start posting the same things and get the same treatment. The thing about proof is that in nature its scientific, and you're coming in with a very unscientific approach which is fine when you want to have fun, but if you want to prove something, and you can't show any stats or any replays of games, and play only below your skill level where you should win games with anything, I don't see why you are surprised people don't believe you.
You are mad when people don't test it themselves, but there are literally countless different combos of builds and champ ideas people could try, if we picked up anything somebody recommended we'd be playing terrible shit for ages. People play what they like to play and what THEY think is good, if you can't convince someone then it's your problem, not ours.
On February 21 2014 02:10 Kyrie wrote:this discussion is well past being any sort of productive...maybe it's time to just let it go
bro im just getting started. 99% of this thread is just random circlejerking i love me a good discussion even if its about something inane, I still learn more (if not about LoL) than from random people posting about their solo queue games or whatever the hell people talk about in this thread.
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On February 21 2014 02:10 Kyrie wrote:this discussion is well past being any sort of productive...maybe it's time to just let it go
Slayer is rolling now, nothing we can do short of setting up some in bed joke and hoping he gets distracted T.T
Also wrong singer
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Also, as for the soraka discussion, riot way overnerfed her heal CD, and turned her really strong passive, one of the best into the game into something terrible.
the idea of soraka is that your starcall is really good dps early, and then later its good utility. However support soraka becomes too squishy to spam it too much late on and mostly relies on silence/heals/ult. Her W is just a 4x cd but barely better janna shield now and so you only have E and R that are good.
They even overnerfed her E mana giving for no reason.
About warwicks lane phase, I have often played lanes with really passive ADs where I play leona but can't go in, so I imagine warwick can do OK pre 6. The only problem is he has no CC pre 6 so he can't suppor ta gank, and it makes him super easier to dive 3 man if they can push at will and dive pre 6. However his E makes it a bit hard to dive him I guess, and post 6 he becomes as good as leona at supporting a gank.
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You guys wanna fucking talk about Soraka? You think you know that shit? You've not seen what I've seen. You can walk into a Soraka lane from champion select and expect to have a relatively easy lane, but what's that? You step one foot into lane and that fucking 40 AP Cho Gath ruptures your cocky punkass into the air for half your health. Soraka silences your shit when you land, and you have to heal like a little bitch whilst Cho regens all of his stats from the creepwave. At level two, Cho instantly clears entire minion waves at no fucking mana cost while Soraka just gives him more mana. After he hits level 6 before you, this bad motherfucker kills whatever's left of you (you've usually died trying to get cs under turret; Rupture range is long as fuck. It's like fucking Jaws, poppin up on people and shit) and the last thing you whisper before you die is "Choraka"
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On February 21 2014 02:24 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
You guys wanna fucking talk about Soraka? You think you know that shit? You've not seen what I've seen. You can walk into a Soraka lane from champion select and expect to have a relatively easy lane, but what's that? You step one foot into lane and that fucking 40 AP Cho Gath ruptures your cocky punkass into the air for half your health. Soraka silences your shit when you land, and you have to heal like a little bitch whilst Cho regens all of his stats from the creepwave. At level two, Cho instantly clears entire minion waves at no fucking mana cost while Soraka just gives him more mana. After he hits level 6 before you, this bad motherfucker kills whatever's left of you (you've usually died trying to get cs under turret; Rupture range is long as fuck. It's like fucking Jaws, poppin up on people and shit) and the last thing you whisper before you die is "Choraka"
who hurt you?
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I mean ww is pretty good but what if like someone maybe tried Malhazar support. I mean pertty similar skillset not bad damage. I think it would be great.
I'm not saying ww support is bad though.I think it could be quite great. Just need to analyze him well and abuse his strengths. If
say Madlife played WW Im sure none of you would argue about its viability.Gotta play him well. Quite an interesting and unique champion too. And surely its viable at D1. Just like everything is. Just look at all those 1 trick ponies playing all kinds of champions that seemingly make no sense. Lol is a deep game, can't just like analyze a whole game in a forum.
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Arr slayer i moved on!. but as i said it's not about diamond who stomp other people.
That oce plat guy from 2 pages ago have a replay link of a game from today where he[?] had ww support. Despite bad build on that ww he manages to carry through all the stuff i said: mid ignite ganks, good bot dive ganks, as to help neutral buffs and tf, good damage, etc...it's not some diamond carrying on lower level game[as far as we know]
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he appears to be on a losing spree in ranked atm
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I think the issue at heart here is there is a discrepancy between different types of posters. I'll make some brief categorization here so if you are transgender please stapph reading here
Good theorycrafters+Good players
at the risk of sounding arrogant, I would put myself here. I mean I put retarded amounts of time into the game so it only makes sense. Scip is in here. Smash when he still posted etc
Good theorycrafters+Bad players
Most people have jobs and lives and shit and can't play enough to maintain a high skill level, but still post actively and are pretty smart. These guys tend to do the bashing of bad theorycrafting and don't have the energy to think up good arguments but pretty much know when someone is full of shit. Even if someone is right they might be right for the wrong reasons. People can play the game and realize is something is strong without realizing exactly why its strong and just making up reasons they mightn't be the core ones.
Bad theorycrafters+Good players.
Again, at the risk of sounding dismissive here Sarah Bryants WW theorycrafting seems pretty unconvincing. Even if he is right the theorycrafting has convinced exactly zero people which you can say
1: Everyone on TL is biased/elitist/has no creativity/is closed minded/only plays FOTM
2: Sarah Bryants theorycrafting/arguments sucked, even if the guide of how to play support WW is actually decent.
Bad theorycrafters+Good players+bad fighters
fk sarah jackie bryant da bes
bad theorycrafters+Bad players
Here we have Shayuki back in the day and PrinceXizor slightly more recently. They aren't good enough to that they're results mean anything and aren't smart enough to correctly assess the reasons some champions seem strong and some seem weak. Sometimes they get things right but only in the same way broken watch is right twice a day.
As a sidenote I think that Shayukis recent fiora analysis has been pretty good, but he's been playing her a lot and climbing the ranks.
Thing is, we have the clash between the Good Theorycrafters/bad players bashing on the bad theorycrafters because they don't have the time and energy to test anything and they have no reason to and pretty much know its bad and then the Bad theorycrafters feel extremely victimized because the ideas they gave a good bit of thought are very quickly dismissed.
This is where I co
me in, I can see where the bad theorycrafter is coming from, and if they are good I can explain why their theorycraft sucks even if they did well.
The issue is I write long ass posts that only the theorycrafter involved and I are interested. I guess taking it to PMs would work but then I wouldn't bother because it's only fun when you think other people are reading it and forming opinions themselves that are interesting.
Sorry if I came off like an arrogant prick here
it's because i am
EAT IT NAPS
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Edward played support Amumu and I am willing to bet NO ONE here thinks Amumu is a good support champion.
Is Amumu support viable? Barely. Recommended? Definitely no.
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United States15536 Posts
On February 21 2014 02:28 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 02:24 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
You guys wanna fucking talk about Soraka? You think you know that shit? You've not seen what I've seen. You can walk into a Soraka lane from champion select and expect to have a relatively easy lane, but what's that? You step one foot into lane and that fucking 40 AP Cho Gath ruptures your cocky punkass into the air for half your health. Soraka silences your shit when you land, and you have to heal like a little bitch whilst Cho regens all of his stats from the creepwave. At level two, Cho instantly clears entire minion waves at no fucking mana cost while Soraka just gives him more mana. After he hits level 6 before you, this bad motherfucker kills whatever's left of you (you've usually died trying to get cs under turret; Rupture range is long as fuck. It's like fucking Jaws, poppin up on people and shit) and the last thing you whisper before you die is "Choraka" who hurt you?
I think it's pretty clear that Cho'gath hurt him.
On February 21 2014 02:34 Slayer91 wrote:
I think the issue at heart here is there is a discrepancy between different types of posters. I'll make some brief categorization here so if you are transgender please stapph reading here
ok i lol'd
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On February 21 2014 02:30 Sarah Bryant wrote:
Arr slayer i moved on!. but as i said it's not about diamond who stomp other people.
That oce plat guy from 2 pages ago have a replay link of a game from today where he[?] had ww support. Despite bad build on that ww he manages to carry through all the stuff i said: mid ignite ganks, good bot dive ganks, as to help neutral buffs and tf, good damage, etc...it's not some diamond carrying on lower level game[as far as we know]
It's not about diamond who stomp other people. How can you say that when you refuse to play warwick on your actual skill level. How come playing on your main account gives you the conclusion that
"he's not viable at that skill level" and not the logical one which is
"I can't win with him at that skill level". There is nothing that changes except skill level of the opponents through the ranks and there's absolutely no reason to believe that the champ is entirely dependent on opponent skill.
Ganking mid with ignite, diving bot, helping neutrals, good damage they are all game changing moves that you can do with lots of other supports and generally they are things that suppotrs who are carrying the game do.
Also just because someone is playing at their level doesn't mean they aren't outplaying their opponents. I can feed or go legendary with the same champ at the same skill level and its all because my skill level has huge variance.
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EPT
