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On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana.
Neither does Athenes.
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On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana.
If you are pairing it with AA staff why do you want more mana? Is your plan to have a perfect item set for taking advantage of the 3% passive? I dont understand your goal. Tear + Morello is a perfectly fine alternative to Athenes in many cases.
Edit, NVM, clear troll.
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On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game.
Archangel, DFG, CDR Boots, 5% from Masteries, Blue elixir/buff?
With Blue buff nerf I've really started getting Blue elixir more often and much earlier. Admittedly building CDR Boots feels shitty BUT this build lets you max CDR without even building a primary CDR item, seems decent enough.
edit: Ok, by "based around Archangel" you mean "every item gives flat mana". That's just silly. Archangel is nice because it lets mana-hungry champs get a bit of damage from the mana they're forced to build, it doesn't mean you should build extraneous mana just for the Archangel passive. For 400g Sapphire you get 200 mana -> 6 AP from Archangels. If you didn't need that extra mana then you really wasted your money.
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On December 17 2013 10:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana. If you are pairing it with AA staff why do you want more mana? Is your plan to have a perfect item set for taking advantage of the 3% passive? I dont understand your goal. Tear + Morello is a perfectly fine alternative to Athenes in many cases.
AA scales with mana.
Yeah, maybe spamming blue pots is the way to go...
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On December 17 2013 10:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana. If you are pairing it with AA staff why do you want more mana? Is your plan to have a perfect item set for taking advantage of the 3% passive? I dont understand your goal. Tear + Morello is a perfectly fine alternative to Athenes in many cases.
I assume he's going for "bigar shild!" in this hypothetical build.
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My point is itemizing CDR SHOULD feel shitty and that a real choice between 15% cdr and 15Mpen boots should exist, but doesn't, because everyone can get 40% cdr + sorcs.
Imagine a world where DFG has 0 CDR,
morello's gives 10
athene's give 5
fiendish codex gives 5
defensive items just straight up don't.
suddenly cdr runes or 9-0-21 builds or ionian boots start to look very attractive.
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I mean, you're trying to argue with Shikyo. It's about as productive as asking me to be rationale toward Riven.
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On December 17 2013 10:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:41 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana. If you are pairing it with AA staff why do you want more mana? Is your plan to have a perfect item set for taking advantage of the 3% passive? I dont understand your goal. Tear + Morello is a perfectly fine alternative to Athenes in many cases. I assume he's going for "bigar shild!" in this hypothetical build.
Nah, hes just trolling. Otherwise he would be complaining about not having a ROA analog that uses Pickaxe so he can get back to playing Blue Ezreal.
The Tear items aren't supposed to be good, and they shouldn't be good. The only reason people forget this is because of the propagation of manaless champs, constant blue buff donations, and the original set of Tear items(and original super op athenes) spoiling people.
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I was joking about nashors kass. Lichbane might be alright.
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On December 17 2013 09:57 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 08:28 Alaric wrote:
'dunno, I have trouble distinguishing Irelia's long cd dps-oriented true damage compared to the close-to-true-damage from Elise, the "what's counterplay?" Jayce, or the "we put a high skill ceiling but we forgot about the skill floor along the way/tinkered with it through buffs" affecting Zed, Kha'Zix, Riven, and a bit Ahri and Fizz.
Would you rather lane against pre-nerf Zac, Nasus, Zed, or simply Renekton, than Irelia? It's not like she also happen to have something akin to a powercurve, that's becoming pretty rare amongst non-tanks. Pre-nerf Irelia is up there with Zac, Zed, Renekton. She was absolutely retarded to lane against. Once she hit level ~3 you virtually could not lane against her unless you were playing another OP champ (aka pre-nerf GP, Renekton, or Udyr) since she would out-trade you, out-sustain you, and be able to chase you down and kill you. On the off chance that you got ahead, she had great disengage with her E. Plus, by the time she hits 6, you might as well give up harassing her since she healed to full health every other minion wave with her ult if W wasn't enough. Even Mundo ult only heals 40% max hp at the cost of 20% of ur current hp. On top of that, she reduces all cc by almost half in teamfights for free with no trade-off meaning she could dive like a monster. Irelia could afford to build almost pure tank and still do mad damage due to her true damage W. The better nerf Irelia meme and how bad of a pick Irelia is now is justified and all, but I think a lot of people are forgetting how truly fucking retarded pre-nerf Irelia was. But that was a numbers problem. The great thing about Irelia (and Jax, and hopefully the new W-centric Kass), is that Autoattacks draw minion aggro, they take time to deal their damage (so there is time for counterganks, cc, etc), and prevents the champ from being able to create the kind of infinite farmfests when behind because they can actually get zoned.
You can argue the same thing about Nasus. Everything is a numbers problem if you want to get technical.
Irelia's kit has innate sustain, cc reduction, true damage, and burst. It does everything you could want a bruiser's kit to do.
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On December 17 2013 10:48 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:45 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:41 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:40 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:37 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:21 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:17 Gahlo wrote:On December 17 2013 10:13 Shikyo wrote:On December 17 2013 09:47 Slusher wrote:
Well people who care about mana are already covered by codex, except mabye jayce Mm? It's not about caring about mana, it's about making it bad for manaless. Codex also is AP-based and doesn't even give mana or mana regen so that makes no sense. It's just that if I want mana and cdr I need to go with glacial so I'll be going tanky, if I want to go offensive it's a deadend Mana-nonAP is a massive shithole anyway. So few options and most of them often aren't relevant to people that want them. Well, even so Codex and its derivates actually do not even offer mana and CDR. Let's say I want an offensive build based around Archangel with max CDR. There's nothing, not a single item. Strange that I'm forced into going tanky with mass armor if I want to itemize like that. Hrm, I guess it's a silly argument though I'd prefer having more options instead of just athenes every game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/MorellonomiconYou are joking right? That item gives no mana. If you are pairing it with AA staff why do you want more mana? Is your plan to have a perfect item set for taking advantage of the 3% passive? I dont understand your goal. Tear + Morello is a perfectly fine alternative to Athenes in many cases. I assume he's going for "bigar shild!" in this hypothetical build. Nah, hes just trolling. Otherwise he would be complaining about not having a ROA analog that uses Pickaxe so he can get back to playing Blue Ezreal. The Tear items aren't supposed to be good, and they shouldn't be good. The only reason people forget this is because of the propagation of manaless champs, constant blue buff donations, and the original set of Tear items(and original super op athenes) spoiling people.
I don't think it makes sense that while the tear items are either AD or AP, the mana + cdr items are armor-based. I don't see how that's trolling but whatever suits you
Maybe you don't realize this, but it's actually what could be used to make mana-based champions actually favorable over CD-based champions, because Tear is one of the few advantages they have.
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On December 17 2013 10:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:57 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 08:28 Alaric wrote:
'dunno, I have trouble distinguishing Irelia's long cd dps-oriented true damage compared to the close-to-true-damage from Elise, the "what's counterplay?" Jayce, or the "we put a high skill ceiling but we forgot about the skill floor along the way/tinkered with it through buffs" affecting Zed, Kha'Zix, Riven, and a bit Ahri and Fizz.
Would you rather lane against pre-nerf Zac, Nasus, Zed, or simply Renekton, than Irelia? It's not like she also happen to have something akin to a powercurve, that's becoming pretty rare amongst non-tanks. Pre-nerf Irelia is up there with Zac, Zed, Renekton. She was absolutely retarded to lane against. Once she hit level ~3 you virtually could not lane against her unless you were playing another OP champ (aka pre-nerf GP, Renekton, or Udyr) since she would out-trade you, out-sustain you, and be able to chase you down and kill you. On the off chance that you got ahead, she had great disengage with her E. Plus, by the time she hits 6, you might as well give up harassing her since she healed to full health every other minion wave with her ult if W wasn't enough. Even Mundo ult only heals 40% max hp at the cost of 20% of ur current hp. On top of that, she reduces all cc by almost half in teamfights for free with no trade-off meaning she could dive like a monster. Irelia could afford to build almost pure tank and still do mad damage due to her true damage W. The better nerf Irelia meme and how bad of a pick Irelia is now is justified and all, but I think a lot of people are forgetting how truly fucking retarded pre-nerf Irelia was. But that was a numbers problem. The great thing about Irelia (and Jax, and hopefully the new W-centric Kass), is that Autoattacks draw minion aggro, they take time to deal their damage (so there is time for counterganks, cc, etc), and prevents the champ from being able to create the kind of infinite farmfests when behind because they can actually get zoned. You can argue the same thing about Nasus. Everything is a numbers problem if you want to get technical. Irelia's kit has innate sustain, cc reduction, true damage, and burst. It does everything you could want a bruiser's kit to do.
Her kit was fine, they just need to revert like, ONE nerf lol
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On December 17 2013 10:52 wei2coolman wrote:
I was joking about nashors kass. Lichbane might be alright.
There was a thread on reddit about ~500AP Kass being able to add 1k magic damage with PBE w and lichbane. Didn't pay too much attention or verify, so take it for what it's worth.
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if you have 500 ap and are in melee range, you deserve that 1k autoattack.
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On December 17 2013 10:52 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:57 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 08:28 Alaric wrote:
'dunno, I have trouble distinguishing Irelia's long cd dps-oriented true damage compared to the close-to-true-damage from Elise, the "what's counterplay?" Jayce, or the "we put a high skill ceiling but we forgot about the skill floor along the way/tinkered with it through buffs" affecting Zed, Kha'Zix, Riven, and a bit Ahri and Fizz.
Would you rather lane against pre-nerf Zac, Nasus, Zed, or simply Renekton, than Irelia? It's not like she also happen to have something akin to a powercurve, that's becoming pretty rare amongst non-tanks. Pre-nerf Irelia is up there with Zac, Zed, Renekton. She was absolutely retarded to lane against. Once she hit level ~3 you virtually could not lane against her unless you were playing another OP champ (aka pre-nerf GP, Renekton, or Udyr) since she would out-trade you, out-sustain you, and be able to chase you down and kill you. On the off chance that you got ahead, she had great disengage with her E. Plus, by the time she hits 6, you might as well give up harassing her since she healed to full health every other minion wave with her ult if W wasn't enough. Even Mundo ult only heals 40% max hp at the cost of 20% of ur current hp. On top of that, she reduces all cc by almost half in teamfights for free with no trade-off meaning she could dive like a monster. Irelia could afford to build almost pure tank and still do mad damage due to her true damage W. The better nerf Irelia meme and how bad of a pick Irelia is now is justified and all, but I think a lot of people are forgetting how truly fucking retarded pre-nerf Irelia was. But that was a numbers problem. The great thing about Irelia (and Jax, and hopefully the new W-centric Kass), is that Autoattacks draw minion aggro, they take time to deal their damage (so there is time for counterganks, cc, etc), and prevents the champ from being able to create the kind of infinite farmfests when behind because they can actually get zoned. You can argue the same thing about Nasus. Everything is a numbers problem if you want to get technical. Irelia's kit has innate sustain, cc reduction, true damage, and burst. It does everything you could want a bruiser's kit to do.
No one said her kit isn't good. I simply think that it is easier to get a kit like Irelia's to be "decent" than it is for Rengar, Yorik, or Poppy to be "decent". Most importantly, her kit still allows for her to be zoned when she it behind, she has a weak early laning phase (when the numbers are done correctly), she needs to sacrifice tankiness to do damage (unlike Shyvana or Renekton), and even if she is fed it takes more than a second and a half to kill your ADC (unlike Zed or Riven for instance). Irelia's kit has its own problems, but that is mostly due to her passive being kind of silly (but you could remake that IMO without ruining her feel).
Its not about "everything is a numbers problem", its about the margin of error in the numbers that in which a champion is competitive. For teamfights, sustained damage is easier to balance than burst, for laning sustain that requires you to be in melle range is easier to balance than that at range. AOE waveclear on bruisers is another consideration, and of course, using mana.
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On December 17 2013 11:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 10:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 09:57 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 08:28 Alaric wrote:
'dunno, I have trouble distinguishing Irelia's long cd dps-oriented true damage compared to the close-to-true-damage from Elise, the "what's counterplay?" Jayce, or the "we put a high skill ceiling but we forgot about the skill floor along the way/tinkered with it through buffs" affecting Zed, Kha'Zix, Riven, and a bit Ahri and Fizz.
Would you rather lane against pre-nerf Zac, Nasus, Zed, or simply Renekton, than Irelia? It's not like she also happen to have something akin to a powercurve, that's becoming pretty rare amongst non-tanks. Pre-nerf Irelia is up there with Zac, Zed, Renekton. She was absolutely retarded to lane against. Once she hit level ~3 you virtually could not lane against her unless you were playing another OP champ (aka pre-nerf GP, Renekton, or Udyr) since she would out-trade you, out-sustain you, and be able to chase you down and kill you. On the off chance that you got ahead, she had great disengage with her E. Plus, by the time she hits 6, you might as well give up harassing her since she healed to full health every other minion wave with her ult if W wasn't enough. Even Mundo ult only heals 40% max hp at the cost of 20% of ur current hp. On top of that, she reduces all cc by almost half in teamfights for free with no trade-off meaning she could dive like a monster. Irelia could afford to build almost pure tank and still do mad damage due to her true damage W. The better nerf Irelia meme and how bad of a pick Irelia is now is justified and all, but I think a lot of people are forgetting how truly fucking retarded pre-nerf Irelia was. But that was a numbers problem. The great thing about Irelia (and Jax, and hopefully the new W-centric Kass), is that Autoattacks draw minion aggro, they take time to deal their damage (so there is time for counterganks, cc, etc), and prevents the champ from being able to create the kind of infinite farmfests when behind because they can actually get zoned. You can argue the same thing about Nasus. Everything is a numbers problem if you want to get technical. Irelia's kit has innate sustain, cc reduction, true damage, and burst. It does everything you could want a bruiser's kit to do. No one said her kit isn't good. I simply think that it is easier to get a kit like Irelia's to be "decent" than it is for Rengar, Yorik, or Poppy to be "decent". Most importantly, her kit still allows for her to be zoned when she it behind, she has a weak early laning phase (when the numbers are done correctly), she needs to sacrifice tankiness to do damage (unlike Shyvana or Renekton), and even if she is fed it takes more than a second and a half to kill your ADC (unlike Zed or Riven for instance). Irelia's kit has its own problems, but that is mostly due to her passive being kind of silly (but you could remake that IMO without ruining her feel). Its not about "everything is a numbers problem", its about the margin of error in the numbers that in which a champion is competitive. For teamfights, sustained damage is easier to balance than burst, for laning sustain that requires you to be in melle range is easier to balance than that at range. AOE waveclear on bruisers is another consideration, and of course, using mana.
Irelia's in a bad spot atm I agree. I'm just saying that when she was popular, she was absolute fucking retarded to play against due to her kit doing everything well.
I actually think that if you remove or significantly nerf her passive you'll ruin her feel.
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Currently he can do only like 680 with Lich Bane and W.
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On December 17 2013 11:20 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 11:08 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 10:52 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 09:57 cLutZ wrote:On December 17 2013 08:54 Ryuu314 wrote:On December 17 2013 08:28 Alaric wrote:
'dunno, I have trouble distinguishing Irelia's long cd dps-oriented true damage compared to the close-to-true-damage from Elise, the "what's counterplay?" Jayce, or the "we put a high skill ceiling but we forgot about the skill floor along the way/tinkered with it through buffs" affecting Zed, Kha'Zix, Riven, and a bit Ahri and Fizz.
Would you rather lane against pre-nerf Zac, Nasus, Zed, or simply Renekton, than Irelia? It's not like she also happen to have something akin to a powercurve, that's becoming pretty rare amongst non-tanks. Pre-nerf Irelia is up there with Zac, Zed, Renekton. She was absolutely retarded to lane against. Once she hit level ~3 you virtually could not lane against her unless you were playing another OP champ (aka pre-nerf GP, Renekton, or Udyr) since she would out-trade you, out-sustain you, and be able to chase you down and kill you. On the off chance that you got ahead, she had great disengage with her E. Plus, by the time she hits 6, you might as well give up harassing her since she healed to full health every other minion wave with her ult if W wasn't enough. Even Mundo ult only heals 40% max hp at the cost of 20% of ur current hp. On top of that, she reduces all cc by almost half in teamfights for free with no trade-off meaning she could dive like a monster. Irelia could afford to build almost pure tank and still do mad damage due to her true damage W. The better nerf Irelia meme and how bad of a pick Irelia is now is justified and all, but I think a lot of people are forgetting how truly fucking retarded pre-nerf Irelia was. But that was a numbers problem. The great thing about Irelia (and Jax, and hopefully the new W-centric Kass), is that Autoattacks draw minion aggro, they take time to deal their damage (so there is time for counterganks, cc, etc), and prevents the champ from being able to create the kind of infinite farmfests when behind because they can actually get zoned. You can argue the same thing about Nasus. Everything is a numbers problem if you want to get technical. Irelia's kit has innate sustain, cc reduction, true damage, and burst. It does everything you could want a bruiser's kit to do. No one said her kit isn't good. I simply think that it is easier to get a kit like Irelia's to be "decent" than it is for Rengar, Yorik, or Poppy to be "decent". Most importantly, her kit still allows for her to be zoned when she it behind, she has a weak early laning phase (when the numbers are done correctly), she needs to sacrifice tankiness to do damage (unlike Shyvana or Renekton), and even if she is fed it takes more than a second and a half to kill your ADC (unlike Zed or Riven for instance). Irelia's kit has its own problems, but that is mostly due to her passive being kind of silly (but you could remake that IMO without ruining her feel). Its not about "everything is a numbers problem", its about the margin of error in the numbers that in which a champion is competitive. For teamfights, sustained damage is easier to balance than burst, for laning sustain that requires you to be in melle range is easier to balance than that at range. AOE waveclear on bruisers is another consideration, and of course, using mana. Irelia's in a bad spot atm I agree. I'm just saying that when she was popular, she was absolute fucking retarded to play against due to her kit doing everything well. I actually think that if you remove or significantly nerf her passive you'll ruin her feel.
Then yea, shes going to be quite difficult to balance. The basic reason why sustained damage is easier to balance is that you are able to stop it in some way.
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I thought that the biggest thing about Irelia's OPness was actually her passive, along with the fact that she was nearly impossible to push off the lane. With her passive she can go all Mundo on you and completely ignore any CC while she kills your ADC. She can still do all that in the lategame but just about everything beats her in lane now.
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On December 17 2013 11:31 Shikyo wrote:
I thought that the biggest thing about Irelia's OPness was actually her passive, along with the fact that she was nearly impossible to push off the lane. With her passive she can go all Mundo on you and completely ignore any CC while she kills your ADC. She can still do all that in the lategame but just about everything beats her in lane now.
I think this is a lesson they learned really recently with zac. The second they took the tenacity off his passive he went from 100% pick/ban to unusable in serious matches. I think irelia and mundo are the only champs with tenacity effects in their kit and mundo has to activate his. If they took away Irelia's tenacity it is likely very easy to tweak her kit into tier one without making her OP.
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EPT
