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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
Now when everyone gets tons of health from shields and items, she has no good actual damage builds other than getting 2-3 dmg items. She also doesn't have incredibly stupid sustain and base damage (lel mundo/shyv/rengar/renek/nasus) or have the scaling of actual carries/assassins (Jax/Jayce/Khazix) or good initiation/utility (Liss/Malphite/Shen/Rumble) tl;dr: she excels at nothing anymore | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
On December 17 2013 11:48 kainzero wrote: You could probably make her E a guaranteed stun and she still wouldn't be a top pick. Her problem is lack of damage, I think her W does too little damage. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On December 17 2013 12:05 Lord Tolkien wrote: The clear solution is for Riot to give her W the option of being flat or % max HP true damage, depending on whichever one is higher. Too thinly veiled | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 17 2013 11:49 Dusty wrote: Her problem is lack of damage, I think her W does too little damage. Or lack of free tankiness/waveclear. But, her Passive is a problem if she gets buffed enough, because then you just have old ZAC mixed with old Zed in your backline. I never thought the passive was what made Irelia, Irelia, but if people feel like that is the case, then she is going to have to stay low-tier. If you changed her passive to something like Shen (Defense = Free Damage), Blitz/Malphite (Free Shield for some arbitrary thing), Jax Ult Active (Damage = free defense), etc she could be good while not oppressive. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
She already really wants BorK (and Trinity), but unlike Jax doesn't get the same tanky stats from building offense, and only gets CC reduction. Giving her a %damage steroid like most of Riot's champions would go a long way to ensuring that she's viable again. But on a more serious note, removing the tenacity on the passive, is an important balance point and issue along with the true damage. Well, the true damage not so much anymore honestly, but that's what's keeping her down. Until then, I'm playing Fiora instead because higher win/pick rate=clearly more viable. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I'd say her problem is that her kit is a bastardisation of assassin and bruiser. If you look at it from an assassin's PoV, she has some kind of burst through her ult, and her W during its peak (since she doesn't have bullshit damage at every level like Riven or can't ride her levels 6-11-16 like, say, Talon does), her Q is a gap closer, E her means of sticking to the target, and her passive is her escape "move" (Kha'Zix has dumb reset and his ult, Zed has shadows, Riven has damn low cd on a huge combo of mobility and cc, Talon's supposed to use his ult if he's sure to get the kill with the second part, Irelia uses the burst heal from her ult to survive the retaliation and the cc reduction from her passive to run away once her job is done). Then, for a bruiser, she has decent base damage allowing her to build tanky first, some cc, and an ult and passive that work better for her when there are other champions around her (while an assassin would rather isolate and 1v1). But she doesn't have the burst of an assassin, nor the amount of dps/utility a bruiser has. Either she receives enough of one to be super strong because she mixes aspects of both (burst closer to an assasin -> she becomes a tanky assassin the way Zed was able to just go BotRK/LW then full tank and still 100-0 squishies late game, too hard to kill for her killing power; more utility/dps, she's a bruiser with strong trades so she can bully/threaten her opponents like an assassin does). I agree that it comes with her kit. It's not blatant like Kha'Zix/Ahri/Jayce/Zed were in terms of "Well, I'm supposed to be X, but I can do absolutely everything or damn close to it, so I'll just make the others obsolete and (face)roll all over you". She lacks waveclear/reach (reminds me when I pick jungle Vi, enemy shapes up to have strong pushing/sieging, team proceeds to not pick anything remotely able to clear waves and I weep), but it's fine: champions are supposed to have weaknesses, maybe even polarising weaknesses. It's something we don't see enough anymore with Riot too busy giving a little bit of everything rather than lopsided kits (it may sound ironic after saying she's a mix of stuff earlier, but she still has well-defined characteristics in a concrete sense). Hell, when looking at the load of crap that are Zed and Riven's ability to lolclear the wave then do other stuff (and the amount of lane control it gives them when ahead), I'm fine with looking at Irelia as an assassin and noting she lacks that. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Irelia does have some pretty serious issues. It's mostly the fact that she can use E -> W and hit the opponent. The opponent had better die during this, because if they don't she has nothing left. I've actually killed BotRK Irelia multiple times when her W ran out, even when I was at like 20% hp and she was near full simply because she's absolutely pathetic when her W runs out. Still, I believe that the lane is her bigger problem... In the lategame I don't think she's that awful... It really would help her though if her ult still dealt magical damage. Maybe the ult could actually either have its healing like tripled or it could deal %max hp true damage or something, now it's pretty pathetic, in my opinion in contention for being the worst ultimate in the game. ¨ I also think that her W dealing something like (4% of enemy max hp as true dmg, minimum 60) would be a good improvement. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 17 2013 12:31 zer0das wrote: Do you just say words hoping something sounds vaguely right? I'm not even joking. Yeah, that's what I do most of the time. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
So Leona's passive scales with magic penetration, so how about doing some sort of a Leona / AP Carry lane bot? Let's say, Annie / Leona? It's an idea I got off a troll "ME MID ONLY" going cassiopeia botlane and going like 15-1 zz | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
it's so obvious it hurts. | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On December 17 2013 12:31 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Been experimenting with Yasuo builds on Dominion (won't get to play him in normals for a while at this rate), and Shiv + Berzerker Greaves into Randuins seems like nice damage mixed with survivability. You get so many free stats with his kit that you don't need to build him full retard glass cannon. I agree. I don't own yasuo, but from playing against him, the glass cannon builds just get exploded before anything happens. The best build I saw was ghostblade, shiv, raduins and banshees. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
On December 17 2013 12:44 Slusher wrote: You know they should just code CDR to work at half efficiency on 0 mana/energy cost spells similar to how aoe/st coding works on spell vamp. it's so obvious it hurts. Other than some edge cases like Leblanc and Lucian who have spells that go down to 0 mana cost, this seems like a really good idea. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On December 17 2013 12:17 Lord Tolkien wrote: She already really wants BorK (and Trinity), but unlike Jax doesn't get the same tanky stats from building offense, and only gets CC reduction. Giving her a %damage steroid like most of Riot's champions would go a long way to ensuring that she's viable again. But on a more serious note, removing the tenacity on the passive, is an important balance point and issue along with the true damage. Well, the true damage not so much anymore honestly, but that's what's keeping her down. Until then, I'm playing Fiora instead because higher win/pick rate=clearly more viable. I mean, the True Damage isn't necessarily an issue. But you can see right now with Olaf that even minor changes to a champ that can shrug off CC who does decent damage is very dangerous. His rework really hasn't changed much in the way of making him easier to balance. And his kit (also Irelia) isn't even top 10 difficulty. | ||
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