[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 47
Forum Index > LoL General |
ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
| ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 17 2013 15:05 Shikyo wrote: Um she would have been perhaps ok last patch. They just gave Elise an enormous buff this patch that makes her burst a lot faster and increases her burst by a ton. That's a pretty stupid thing to do considering that she was extremely good even before that. I agree that she should have less base dmg, forcing people to actually build AP. Perhaps increasing the scaling of her Qs and lowering the base dmg, as well as reducing her spiderform / spiderling base dmg and increasing the ap ratio. Things like that. Oh and about diving to the backline, it's funny that Poppy can do that much more comfortably than Olaf but is considered trash. Well Poppy requires a TON more farm to be able to actually kill something and has a pretty weak early game plus is relatively low impact early on, which is too big a liability for top level play. | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 17 2013 15:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: the attackspeed buff thing where it applies instantly, is that what you mean? Yup. Cannot test how much of an effect it actually has on cleartimes etc but it's at least an extra attack or two and much smoother for animation canceling in duels and whatnot. | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On December 17 2013 14:59 Kinie wrote: It has more-so to do with the fact that Olaf can dive to the backline near-guaranteed as is through his ult, and the Ghost-like effects make it like 99% certain, and if the enemy team focuses him down then he did his job cause then your own backline is shredding the enemy team up. Not really though. The modern Olaf dies before he gets to the backline (because ulting removes his defensive steroids) if he doesn't hit multiple axes in a row, or have a speed boost. I think, maybe, Smash wants him to be a lifesteal tank, and he can do that very well with multiple speed sources, but its a weird archetype for LoL, and not one I expect to be balanced long term, no matter the numbers. Olaf is going to be a champion that, for every patch, they also need to adjust Olaf to keep him in the range of strong champs (and its going to be hard to predict which way to go for any individual patch). | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Well, I guess I'll need to wait and see about Olaf but I don't think I've seen one that did something other than feed and die horribly in fights in quite some time. | ||
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
| ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On December 17 2013 16:13 ticklishmusic wrote: I don't understand why you don't just run Morgana + Olaf or Sion, just put on like a 700hp anti-CC shield and let the melee truck down the enemy team. Because if you run Morg mid you'll lack burst damage. If you run her support the shield will be destroyed very quickly w/out AP or if you build AP then you'll lack someone buying utility items like Shurelyas and Crucible. | ||
anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
I went madreds into triforce then got atmas. the game went pretty long and i got a randuins and visage. Still ended up doing a lot of damage with the 50% crit chance i had. Game finished before i could get my final item would've probably gone for an IE. Early game feels somewhat iffy cuz you need damage but you need some tankiness as well. Teamfighting can be anywhere from easy as hell to difficult depending upon if you have a person with a knockup. Mostly i was trying to play around riven Q knocking them up and then chaining ult. If you dont have anyone with a knockup you have to hang around the edges of a teamfight or near your adc charging your Q till you can tornado ult their adc or whatever. Building tanky is mandatory; you'll be useless otherwise and he does a ton of damage while building tanky anyways. W also lets you make a lot of clutch plays; saving your adc with leblanc combo is satisying as hell. | ||
ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
how could i have never known | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
| ||
JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On December 17 2013 18:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: wow, lee sin razor double dorans into full tank + last whisper is so strong how could i have never known I once saw a Lee go Mobos + 5 dorans. He carried. | ||
ExoFun
Netherlands2041 Posts
On December 17 2013 19:22 zulu_nation8 wrote: I feel bad for loco but he's had so many chances to make it. Yea the vlog was straight from the hearth. I hope he gets in the University that he applied to and have a break of LoL. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
Speaking of which, have you seen Alistar often since the start of pre-season? Sadly enough it looks like the new itemisation (esp. with how relic's nerf makes it unsuited for relic->sell and buy talisman now) doesn't help him at all and since Riot wants to change his E they don't plan on touching him. Regarding Elise, her spiderlings (via the on-hit on her ult, which is also pretty big on her) add a lot of damage, where she out-harasses you with Q and out-bursts you with her form switch combo, then when you think everything's on cd so you can outdamage her if she stays in the fight her right-click damage is enough that you barely reduce the gap. How often do you target the spiderlings when you play against Elise? Until recently I didn't even know that she retains her counter (instead of it dropping to 0) when she goes back to human form, because it's so easy for her to spam to put it back up that it doesn't make a difference. In turn, it doesn't feel worth it to expand mana or take damage to kill the spiderlings in lane, because unless you proceed to fight (and avoid her disengage cocoon) for a long time she'll build her counters back up in no time, and in teamfights she can rarely stay in melee range and there's a lot of incidental AoE anyway. Do people try to specifically kill them in some match-ups? On December 17 2013 13:20 cLutZ wrote: I mean, the True Damage isn't necessarily an issue. But you can see right now with Olaf that even minor changes to a champ that can shrug off CC who does decent damage is very dangerous. His rework really hasn't changed much in the way of making him easier to balance. And his kit (also Irelia) isn't even top 10 difficulty. When you look at it, since everyone ignored him the following happened: - early levels W buffed: mostly laning change (or jungle sustain I guess) since he doesn't really get to stand still and whack during ganks - E health cost reduced to make up for hi weaker early levels, doesn't mean much for his jungling (esp. since cost is refunded if it kills) - Q slow slightly lengthened (helps mostly with long range axes, thus ganks/engaging from a distance), mana cost flattened (mosly helps post level 5 if maxed first, eg. jungle, or in teamfights in general to avoid getting oom) - Shurelya's active is more readily available since the build-up isn't so bad anymore, making it widespread in games - Sivir's rework made her (and her ult aura) popular again - pre-season changes brought Karma support to the fray I'd say W and E changes were marginal to jungle Olaf, and while Q changes are obviously nice, it's mostly the last 3 changes, which only indirectly relate to Olaf, that are the cause of his resurgence, especially considering you rarely see him offlaning rather than jungling. So it's not exactly these "minor changes"; also, the way people use him (especially his ult, burning it and the speed boosts to get whacked by an Ezreal while steroid-less, only for the ult to drop as soon as Olaf enters melee range, Ezreal to Arcane Shift away, and the kiting to begin) shows that they're still not totally used to him and the way said changes impact his playstyle. I'm pretty sure he's a fad that'll drop as soon a Riot brings down the nerfhammer on Sivir again, contrary to champions like Shyvana who,barring more severe changes to either the champion or the system, will remain strong in the (early) s4 paradigm. | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
| ||
ExoFun
Netherlands2041 Posts
On December 17 2013 22:33 zulu_nation8 wrote: from watching some dexter's vods it seems his ganking mechanics are world class but he doesn't really know what to do after laning. His jarvan engages are also pretty solid. I am not sure with other champions. | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On December 17 2013 20:21 Alaric wrote: When you look at it, since everyone ignored him the following happened: - early levels W buffed: mostly laning change (or jungle sustain I guess) since he doesn't really get to stand still and whack during ganks - E health cost reduced to make up for hi weaker early levels, doesn't mean much for his jungling (esp. since cost is refunded if it kills) - Q slow slightly lengthened (helps mostly with long range axes, thus ganks/engaging from a distance), mana cost flattened (mosly helps post level 5 if maxed first, eg. jungle, or in teamfights in general to avoid getting oom) - Shurelya's active is more readily available since the build-up isn't so bad anymore, making it widespread in games - Sivir's rework made her (and her ult aura) popular again - pre-season changes brought Karma support to the fray I'd say W and E changes were marginal to jungle Olaf, and while Q changes are obviously nice, it's mostly the last 3 changes, which only indirectly relate to Olaf, that are the cause of his resurgence, especially considering you rarely see him offlaning rather than jungling. So it's not exactly these "minor changes"; also, the way people use him (especially his ult, burning it and the speed boosts to get whacked by an Ezreal while steroid-less, only for the ult to drop as soon as Olaf enters melee range, Ezreal to Arcane Shift away, and the kiting to begin) shows that they're still not totally used to him and the way said changes impact his playstyle. I'm pretty sure he's a fad that'll drop as soon a Riot brings down the nerfhammer on Sivir again, contrary to champions like Shyvana who,barring more severe changes to either the champion or the system, will remain strong in the (early) s4 paradigm. Im not sure I agree with what you are saying, but even if that is true, doesn't it kind support my premise that the rework has been a failure? | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
See Ziggs: was he inherently bad previously, that he wasn't played at all? He didn't fit into the assassin meta but it didn't mean he particularly needed buffs or was a bad design. The lack of a gap closer for Olaf (and if he was to get that he'd never be able to retain his ult) isn't necessarily bad design either, but he does suffer from it because of how the game evolved since his creation. After all, if you got rigged of stuff like Shyvana, Renekton, Nasus, Elise top lane (although I'm not sure if he wouldn't wreck her now; but release Elise's harass would made his laning unbearable) Olaf would be very strong, and a pretty legit splitpusher. It'd also make Jax and Shen better and more popular. I'd like Riot to focus their design on explicitly avoiding gap closing and manaless (regardless of the resource used) concepts for their next champions, in order to get a better grasp of the needed power-level to strive in the current environment. Tbh I'd rather have mana costs raised across the board (cooldowns for manaless non-health-using champions) as it'd give Riot more wiggle room to make adjustments, I believe. Plus, because new releases tend to be monitored more closely (and, more often than not, overtuned, which I'm now fine with as part of the data gathering process), it'd contribute to make the champion pool under scrutiny less skewed toward mobile/gapclosing champions (since Zed and Gragas probably receive more attention than Karthus or Galio; doesn't matter if the whole pool has 70% immobile champions if the monitored one only has 15%) and maybe if mobility was seen as a perk rather than a low-end characteristic in a kit Riot's approach would be less aggravating. That we came from judging Caitlyn and Corki as mobile/safe to viewing Ashe or MF as sitting ducks says a lot to me. We don't need to go back to that way, but mybe we can hit a middle ground. | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On December 17 2013 23:42 Alaric wrote: I wouldn't say that. Is Zac currently a failure? Is Sejuani? Is Jayce? They're still pretty damn friggin' strong, but because they aren't the best of the best, you won't see them competitively. See Ziggs: was he inherently bad previously, that he wasn't played at all? He didn't fit into the assassin meta but it didn't mean he particularly needed buffs or was a bad design. The lack of a gap closer for Olaf (and if he was to get that he'd never be able to retain his ult) isn't necessarily bad design either, but he does suffer from it because of how the game evolved since his creation. After all, if you got rigged of stuff like Shyvana, Renekton, Nasus, Elise top lane (although I'm not sure if he wouldn't wreck her now; but release Elise's harass would made his laning unbearable) Olaf would be very strong, and a pretty legit splitpusher. It'd also make Jax and Shen better and more popular. I'd like Riot to focus their design on explicitly avoiding gap closing and manaless (regardless of the resource used) concepts for their next champions, in order to get a better grasp of the needed power-level to strive in the current environment. Tbh I'd rather have mana costs raised across the board (cooldowns for manaless non-health-using champions) as it'd give Riot more wiggle room to make adjustments, I believe. Plus, because new releases tend to be monitored more closely (and, more often than not, overtuned, which I'm now fine with as part of the data gathering process), it'd contribute to make the champion pool under scrutiny less skewed toward mobile/gapclosing champions (since Zed and Gragas probably receive more attention than Karthus or Galio; doesn't matter if the whole pool has 70% immobile champions if the monitored one only has 15%) and maybe if mobility was seen as a perk rather than a low-end characteristic in a kit Riot's approach would be less aggravating. That we came from judging Caitlyn and Corki as mobile/safe to viewing Ashe or MF as sitting ducks says a lot to me. We don't need to go back to that way, but mybe we can hit a middle ground. ZAC is certainly a failure, he is a design failure since the beginning. Manaless + HP sustain + Long Range Engage was never going to work. He was OP until he fell out of the game. Jayce probably is as well because they just threw too much into his kit, and now the numbers are so clunky that no one plays him (but when they aren't he is Nidalee with a teamwide Speed boost, AOE waveclear, a knockback, and better all-in potential). Sejuani is probably not, but she is still somehow worse than Amumu, so Riot's inability to give those two separate niches is kinda a failure, but really its just a case of too many champions, so some of them are going to be very similar, and one will always be better at any point. | ||
Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
Yasuo's kit also shows the willingness to experiment with more "antifun" potentially game breaking abilities that Riot has steered away from for a long time. The wind wall is probably the most interesting and dynamic ability to have been added to LoL in years and its a good sign that Riot is confident enough to start to branch out with real "utility" abilities instead of just a nuke with some random weak utility effect thrown in. Only when champions have more "dynamic asymmetry" can they be balanced on the basis of their kit as opposed to the ratio of their QWER. Ziggs is currently a go-between of both strengths. His kit is unique enough as a mid laner to warrant picking for its specialized skillset and its QWER ratio (post buff and nerf of other mids) is now on par with other top mids, leading to a very strong champion. | ||
Alaric
France45622 Posts
I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs). Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler + Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice. I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful. Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game. I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. | ||
| ||