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[Patch 3.15] Yasuo General Discussion - Page 47

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ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
December 17 2013 06:10 GMT
#921
the attackspeed buff thing where it applies instantly, is that what you mean?
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 17 2013 06:21 GMT
#922
On December 17 2013 15:05 Shikyo wrote:
Um she would have been perhaps ok last patch.

They just gave Elise an enormous buff this patch that makes her burst a lot faster and increases her burst by a ton. That's a pretty stupid thing to do considering that she was extremely good even before that. I agree that she should have less base dmg, forcing people to actually build AP. Perhaps increasing the scaling of her Qs and lowering the base dmg, as well as reducing her spiderform / spiderling base dmg and increasing the ap ratio. Things like that.



Oh and about diving to the backline, it's funny that Poppy can do that much more comfortably than Olaf but is considered trash.

Well Poppy requires a TON more farm to be able to actually kill something and has a pretty weak early game plus is relatively low impact early on, which is too big a liability for top level play.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-17 06:25:19
December 17 2013 06:23 GMT
#923
^ Yeah, and I guess Poppy got nerfed pretty hard this patch making her completely unusable anyway.

On December 17 2013 15:10 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
the attackspeed buff thing where it applies instantly, is that what you mean?

Yup. Cannot test how much of an effect it actually has on cleartimes etc but it's at least an extra attack or two and much smoother for animation canceling in duels and whatnot.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-17 06:26:06
December 17 2013 06:25 GMT
#924
On December 17 2013 14:59 Kinie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2013 14:55 cLutZ wrote:
On December 17 2013 14:46 wei2coolman wrote:
On December 17 2013 14:29 Slusher wrote:
I honestly don't know what Elise will take at this point, after the armor/mr nerfs I thought that was it, boy was I wrong lol

Nerf movespeed, reduce execute dmg.

Olaf in ogn is pretty much. Olaf + sivir combo = godlike. Olaf by himself = purty good.


Well, that is just an artifact of Riot pretending that Ghost is never on cooldown. Like, literally, pre-rework they constantly talked about how Ghost + Ult Olaf was really strong. As if Ult + Summoner on most champions is not really strong. So Olaf is now strong if he has Ghost (or Ghostlike effect), and less so without.


It has more-so to do with the fact that Olaf can dive to the backline near-guaranteed as is through his ult, and the Ghost-like effects make it like 99% certain, and if the enemy team focuses him down then he did his job cause then your own backline is shredding the enemy team up.


Not really though. The modern Olaf dies before he gets to the backline (because ulting removes his defensive steroids) if he doesn't hit multiple axes in a row, or have a speed boost. I think, maybe, Smash wants him to be a lifesteal tank, and he can do that very well with multiple speed sources, but its a weird archetype for LoL, and not one I expect to be balanced long term, no matter the numbers. Olaf is going to be a champion that, for every patch, they also need to adjust Olaf to keep him in the range of strong champs (and its going to be hard to predict which way to go for any individual patch).
Freeeeeeedom
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-17 06:29:39
December 17 2013 06:28 GMT
#925
Lifesteal tank? Hrm, it's strange they wouldn't just do that with Sion when they want to remove his AP ratios anyway.

Well, I guess I'll need to wait and see about Olaf but I don't think I've seen one that did something other than feed and die horribly in fights in quite some time.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-17 07:13:59
December 17 2013 07:13 GMT
#926
I don't understand why you don't just run Morgana + Olaf or Sion, just put on like a 700hp anti-CC shield and let the melee truck down the enemy team.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
December 17 2013 08:22 GMT
#927
On December 17 2013 16:13 ticklishmusic wrote:
I don't understand why you don't just run Morgana + Olaf or Sion, just put on like a 700hp anti-CC shield and let the melee truck down the enemy team.

Because if you run Morg mid you'll lack burst damage. If you run her support the shield will be destroyed very quickly w/out AP or if you build AP then you'll lack someone buying utility items like Shurelyas and Crucible.
anmolsinghmzn2009
Profile Joined June 2011
India1783 Posts
December 17 2013 08:28 GMT
#928
So i tried yasuo in jungle. Clears decently fast and its fun to dash all over the place. Ganks can be a bit iffy since you usually wont be able to get Q tornado unless they they are pushed up pretty close to your turret, chaining ult on ganks has the same problem unless you have riven or janna etc in the lane. But its not too bad cuz you can chase really well with chaining Es on minions. Oddly enough syndra's E gives a really small window to R as well.

I went madreds into triforce then got atmas. the game went pretty long and i got a randuins and visage. Still ended up doing a lot of damage with the 50% crit chance i had. Game finished before i could get my final item would've probably gone for an IE. Early game feels somewhat iffy cuz you need damage but you need some tankiness as well.

Teamfighting can be anywhere from easy as hell to difficult depending upon if you have a person with a knockup. Mostly i was trying to play around riven Q knocking them up and then chaining ult. If you dont have anyone with a knockup you have to hang around the edges of a teamfight or near your adc charging your Q till you can tornado ult their adc or whatever. Building tanky is mandatory; you'll be useless otherwise and he does a ton of damage while building tanky anyways. W also lets you make a lot of clutch plays; saving your adc with leblanc combo is satisying as hell.
Dunk first. Ask questions while dunking.
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
December 17 2013 09:50 GMT
#929
wow, lee sin razor double dorans into full tank + last whisper is so strong

how could i have never known
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
December 17 2013 10:22 GMT
#930
I feel bad for loco but he's had so many chances to make it.
JazzVortical
Profile Joined July 2013
Australia1825 Posts
December 17 2013 11:03 GMT
#931
On December 17 2013 18:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
wow, lee sin razor double dorans into full tank + last whisper is so strong

how could i have never known


I once saw a Lee go Mobos + 5 dorans. He carried.
ExoFun
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2041 Posts
December 17 2013 11:18 GMT
#932
On December 17 2013 19:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I feel bad for loco but he's had so many chances to make it.

Yea the vlog was straight from the hearth. I hope he gets in the University that he applied to and have a break of LoL.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
December 17 2013 11:21 GMT
#933
Ya, looks like they at least hit it right with Yasuo having a bunch of damage without having to build glas cannon a la Master Yi, or being able to blow it all in a single burst a la Riven. Since they wanted him to feel like he has "carry-like" damage, using the combo of his Q and R conditional effects to prevent him from being too dangerous until a few seconds into the fight (unless you've got Madlife's Alistar initiating for you of course) seems to have been working well. Well, there's still the wall of course.

Speaking of which, have you seen Alistar often since the start of pre-season? Sadly enough it looks like the new itemisation (esp. with how relic's nerf makes it unsuited for relic->sell and buy talisman now) doesn't help him at all and since Riot wants to change his E they don't plan on touching him.

Regarding Elise, her spiderlings (via the on-hit on her ult, which is also pretty big on her) add a lot of damage, where she out-harasses you with Q and out-bursts you with her form switch combo, then when you think everything's on cd so you can outdamage her if she stays in the fight her right-click damage is enough that you barely reduce the gap.
How often do you target the spiderlings when you play against Elise? Until recently I didn't even know that she retains her counter (instead of it dropping to 0) when she goes back to human form, because it's so easy for her to spam to put it back up that it doesn't make a difference. In turn, it doesn't feel worth it to expand mana or take damage to kill the spiderlings in lane, because unless you proceed to fight (and avoid her disengage cocoon) for a long time she'll build her counters back up in no time, and in teamfights she can rarely stay in melee range and there's a lot of incidental AoE anyway.
Do people try to specifically kill them in some match-ups?

On December 17 2013 13:20 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2013 12:17 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On December 17 2013 12:06 Scip wrote:
On December 17 2013 12:05 Lord Tolkien wrote:
The clear solution is for Riot to give her W the option of being flat or % max HP true damage, depending on whichever one is higher.

Too thinly veiled

She already really wants BorK (and Trinity), but unlike Jax doesn't get the same tanky stats from building offense, and only gets CC reduction. Giving her a %damage steroid like most of Riot's champions would go a long way to ensuring that she's viable again.

But on a more serious note, removing the tenacity on the passive, is an important balance point and issue along with the true damage. Well, the true damage not so much anymore honestly, but that's what's keeping her down.

Until then, I'm playing Fiora instead because higher win/pick rate=clearly more viable.


I mean, the True Damage isn't necessarily an issue. But you can see right now with Olaf that even minor changes to a champ that can shrug off CC who does decent damage is very dangerous. His rework really hasn't changed much in the way of making him easier to balance. And his kit (also Irelia) isn't even top 10 difficulty.

When you look at it, since everyone ignored him the following happened:
- early levels W buffed: mostly laning change (or jungle sustain I guess) since he doesn't really get to stand still and whack during ganks
- E health cost reduced to make up for hi weaker early levels, doesn't mean much for his jungling (esp. since cost is refunded if it kills)
- Q slow slightly lengthened (helps mostly with long range axes, thus ganks/engaging from a distance), mana cost flattened (mosly helps post level 5 if maxed first, eg. jungle, or in teamfights in general to avoid getting oom)
- Shurelya's active is more readily available since the build-up isn't so bad anymore, making it widespread in games
- Sivir's rework made her (and her ult aura) popular again
- pre-season changes brought Karma support to the fray

I'd say W and E changes were marginal to jungle Olaf, and while Q changes are obviously nice, it's mostly the last 3 changes, which only indirectly relate to Olaf, that are the cause of his resurgence, especially considering you rarely see him offlaning rather than jungling.
So it's not exactly these "minor changes"; also, the way people use him (especially his ult, burning it and the speed boosts to get whacked by an Ezreal while steroid-less, only for the ult to drop as soon as Olaf enters melee range, Ezreal to Arcane Shift away, and the kiting to begin) shows that they're still not totally used to him and the way said changes impact his playstyle.
I'm pretty sure he's a fad that'll drop as soon a Riot brings down the nerfhammer on Sivir again, contrary to champions like Shyvana who,barring more severe changes to either the champion or the system, will remain strong in the (early) s4 paradigm.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
December 17 2013 13:33 GMT
#934
from watching some dexter's vods it seems his ganking mechanics are world class but he doesn't really know what to do after laning.
ExoFun
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2041 Posts
December 17 2013 13:54 GMT
#935
On December 17 2013 22:33 zulu_nation8 wrote:
from watching some dexter's vods it seems his ganking mechanics are world class but he doesn't really know what to do after laning.

His jarvan engages are also pretty solid. I am not sure with other champions.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 17 2013 14:18 GMT
#936
On December 17 2013 20:21 Alaric wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2013 13:20 cLutZ wrote:
On December 17 2013 12:17 Lord Tolkien wrote:
On December 17 2013 12:06 Scip wrote:
On December 17 2013 12:05 Lord Tolkien wrote:
The clear solution is for Riot to give her W the option of being flat or % max HP true damage, depending on whichever one is higher.

Too thinly veiled

She already really wants BorK (and Trinity), but unlike Jax doesn't get the same tanky stats from building offense, and only gets CC reduction. Giving her a %damage steroid like most of Riot's champions would go a long way to ensuring that she's viable again.

But on a more serious note, removing the tenacity on the passive, is an important balance point and issue along with the true damage. Well, the true damage not so much anymore honestly, but that's what's keeping her down.

Until then, I'm playing Fiora instead because higher win/pick rate=clearly more viable.


I mean, the True Damage isn't necessarily an issue. But you can see right now with Olaf that even minor changes to a champ that can shrug off CC who does decent damage is very dangerous. His rework really hasn't changed much in the way of making him easier to balance. And his kit (also Irelia) isn't even top 10 difficulty.

When you look at it, since everyone ignored him the following happened:
- early levels W buffed: mostly laning change (or jungle sustain I guess) since he doesn't really get to stand still and whack during ganks
- E health cost reduced to make up for hi weaker early levels, doesn't mean much for his jungling (esp. since cost is refunded if it kills)
- Q slow slightly lengthened (helps mostly with long range axes, thus ganks/engaging from a distance), mana cost flattened (mosly helps post level 5 if maxed first, eg. jungle, or in teamfights in general to avoid getting oom)
- Shurelya's active is more readily available since the build-up isn't so bad anymore, making it widespread in games
- Sivir's rework made her (and her ult aura) popular again
- pre-season changes brought Karma support to the fray

I'd say W and E changes were marginal to jungle Olaf, and while Q changes are obviously nice, it's mostly the last 3 changes, which only indirectly relate to Olaf, that are the cause of his resurgence, especially considering you rarely see him offlaning rather than jungling.
So it's not exactly these "minor changes"; also, the way people use him (especially his ult, burning it and the speed boosts to get whacked by an Ezreal while steroid-less, only for the ult to drop as soon as Olaf enters melee range, Ezreal to Arcane Shift away, and the kiting to begin) shows that they're still not totally used to him and the way said changes impact his playstyle.
I'm pretty sure he's a fad that'll drop as soon a Riot brings down the nerfhammer on Sivir again, contrary to champions like Shyvana who,barring more severe changes to either the champion or the system, will remain strong in the (early) s4 paradigm.


Im not sure I agree with what you are saying, but even if that is true, doesn't it kind support my premise that the rework has been a failure?
Freeeeeeedom
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
December 17 2013 14:42 GMT
#937
I wouldn't say that. Is Zac currently a failure? Is Sejuani? Is Jayce? They're still pretty damn friggin' strong, but because they aren't the best of the best, you won't see them competitively.
See Ziggs: was he inherently bad previously, that he wasn't played at all? He didn't fit into the assassin meta but it didn't mean he particularly needed buffs or was a bad design.

The lack of a gap closer for Olaf (and if he was to get that he'd never be able to retain his ult) isn't necessarily bad design either, but he does suffer from it because of how the game evolved since his creation. After all, if you got rigged of stuff like Shyvana, Renekton, Nasus, Elise top lane (although I'm not sure if he wouldn't wreck her now; but release Elise's harass would made his laning unbearable) Olaf would be very strong, and a pretty legit splitpusher. It'd also make Jax and Shen better and more popular.


I'd like Riot to focus their design on explicitly avoiding gap closing and manaless (regardless of the resource used) concepts for their next champions, in order to get a better grasp of the needed power-level to strive in the current environment. Tbh I'd rather have mana costs raised across the board (cooldowns for manaless non-health-using champions) as it'd give Riot more wiggle room to make adjustments, I believe.

Plus, because new releases tend to be monitored more closely (and, more often than not, overtuned, which I'm now fine with as part of the data gathering process), it'd contribute to make the champion pool under scrutiny less skewed toward mobile/gapclosing champions (since Zed and Gragas probably receive more attention than Karthus or Galio; doesn't matter if the whole pool has 70% immobile champions if the monitored one only has 15%) and maybe if mobility was seen as a perk rather than a low-end characteristic in a kit Riot's approach would be less aggravating.
That we came from judging Caitlyn and Corki as mobile/safe to viewing Ashe or MF as sitting ducks says a lot to me. We don't need to go back to that way, but mybe we can hit a middle ground.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 17 2013 15:13 GMT
#938
On December 17 2013 23:42 Alaric wrote:
I wouldn't say that. Is Zac currently a failure? Is Sejuani? Is Jayce? They're still pretty damn friggin' strong, but because they aren't the best of the best, you won't see them competitively.
See Ziggs: was he inherently bad previously, that he wasn't played at all? He didn't fit into the assassin meta but it didn't mean he particularly needed buffs or was a bad design.

The lack of a gap closer for Olaf (and if he was to get that he'd never be able to retain his ult) isn't necessarily bad design either, but he does suffer from it because of how the game evolved since his creation. After all, if you got rigged of stuff like Shyvana, Renekton, Nasus, Elise top lane (although I'm not sure if he wouldn't wreck her now; but release Elise's harass would made his laning unbearable) Olaf would be very strong, and a pretty legit splitpusher. It'd also make Jax and Shen better and more popular.


I'd like Riot to focus their design on explicitly avoiding gap closing and manaless (regardless of the resource used) concepts for their next champions, in order to get a better grasp of the needed power-level to strive in the current environment. Tbh I'd rather have mana costs raised across the board (cooldowns for manaless non-health-using champions) as it'd give Riot more wiggle room to make adjustments, I believe.

Plus, because new releases tend to be monitored more closely (and, more often than not, overtuned, which I'm now fine with as part of the data gathering process), it'd contribute to make the champion pool under scrutiny less skewed toward mobile/gapclosing champions (since Zed and Gragas probably receive more attention than Karthus or Galio; doesn't matter if the whole pool has 70% immobile champions if the monitored one only has 15%) and maybe if mobility was seen as a perk rather than a low-end characteristic in a kit Riot's approach would be less aggravating.
That we came from judging Caitlyn and Corki as mobile/safe to viewing Ashe or MF as sitting ducks says a lot to me. We don't need to go back to that way, but mybe we can hit a middle ground.


ZAC is certainly a failure, he is a design failure since the beginning. Manaless + HP sustain + Long Range Engage was never going to work. He was OP until he fell out of the game. Jayce probably is as well because they just threw too much into his kit, and now the numbers are so clunky that no one plays him (but when they aren't he is Nidalee with a teamwide Speed boost, AOE waveclear, a knockback, and better all-in potential). Sejuani is probably not, but she is still somehow worse than Amumu, so Riot's inability to give those two separate niches is kinda a failure, but really its just a case of too many champions, so some of them are going to be very similar, and one will always be better at any point.
Freeeeeeedom
Kupon3ss
Profile Joined May 2008
時の回廊10066 Posts
December 17 2013 15:16 GMT
#939
The similarity of ADCs and simply picking the one with the "biggest numbers" has been Riot's problem in the past but is something that they've started to improve upon. Comparing Lucian, which feels like a reasonably standard ADC (spamclearaoeskillshotgapcloserunderwhelmingult) and Jinx shows a bit of a clear shift in design. At the moment, Jinx power/damage level is what is more or less required to have a gapcloserless ADC as opposed to just that of Varus in S3. At the moment Lucian more or less eclipses all "mobile" ADCs while Jinx does the same for non mobile ADCs due to a certain lack of true differences in kits aside from small variations and "ratios".

Yasuo's kit also shows the willingness to experiment with more "antifun" potentially game breaking abilities that Riot has steered away from for a long time. The wind wall is probably the most interesting and dynamic ability to have been added to LoL in years and its a good sign that Riot is confident enough to start to branch out with real "utility" abilities instead of just a nuke with some random weak utility effect thrown in.

Only when champions have more "dynamic asymmetry" can they be balanced on the basis of their kit as opposed to the ratio of their QWER. Ziggs is currently a go-between of both strengths. His kit is unique enough as a mid laner to warrant picking for its specialized skillset and its QWER ratio (post buff and nerf of other mids) is now on par with other top mids, leading to a very strong champion.
When in doubt, just believe in yourself and press buttons
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-17 16:10:26
December 17 2013 16:02 GMT
#940
+ Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them.

TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd.


+ Show Spoiler +
Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.

Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular.

TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
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