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On December 17 2013 20:03 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 18:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
wow, lee sin razor double dorans into full tank + last whisper is so strong
how could i have never known I once saw a Lee go Mobos + 5 dorans. He carried.
You can build pretty much anything on Lee Sin tbh, hes one of the most obnoxious fucking champions in the game imo.
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Lee is obnoxious as fuck, but nowhere near the potential frustration of hi-my-kit-has-absolutely-fucking-everything-elise. Bitch has ridiculous base damage, ranged or melee as you please, a long range stun, and a free zhonyas which doubles as an escape/engage through minions long as the fucking screen. Riot plz, delete her from the game.
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On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd.
this is a combonation of 2 problems,
1)homogeneous power curves, the closest thing we have to an "early game" comp is double ad, that and the gold flow atm is so high early game comps are risky as fuck.
2)front loaded ban phase, gotta be able to deal with the king of the lane when picked, can't beat Shy or Renekton? champion not viable. the only lane with any flexibility is mid. and even that lane (see: Zed/Fizz) has gone thru phases of must be able to lane vs. X champion
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On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:
Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status)
What?
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I think most champions fit 4 Categories (Jungle as Example): Competitive(Elise/Lee/etc); Niche-But-Smart-Players-Will-Ruin-Your-Day(Amumu/Rammus);Objectively-Worse-Than-A-Similar-Pick-From-Tier-2 (Sejuani/Udyr); WTF-Tier (Warwick).
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On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions.
Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard
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I didn't want to use the "Zac/Jayce/etc. are still perfectly viable in pub play" card because then you automatically get the "everything's viable in soloQ anyway!" retort to the face. So it was my way of saying "just because you're not permaban in soloQ nor used in competitive play doesn't mean you're utter trash, between broken champions, FotM and player bias you're simply under the radar".
As for your tiers, I'd actually cut competitive in 2: the S class material (currently stuff like Shyvana, Zed/Ahri/Fizz before that, Zac/Elise even before, and previously Jayce/Kha'Zix) that teams fight for and dictate the draft, and the "fit to participate" which includes the rest (like, say, Jax now, or Jarvan: they aren't disputed picks, but they're still seeing comp play).
And I think I'd put much more champions in the "fit to participate" category than you, with the cave-at that despite being fit, pros simply are too fickle and/or don't let go of the memory of their OP status.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard
He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On December 18 2013 01:45 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. this is a combonation of 2 problems, 1)homogeneous power curves, the closest thing we have to an "early game" comp is double ad, that and the gold flow atm is so high early game comps are risky as fuck. 2)front loaded ban phase, gotta be able to deal with the king of the lane when picked, can't beat Shy or Renekton? champion not viable. the only lane with any flexibility is mid. and even that lane (see: Zed/Fizz) has gone thru phases of must be able to lane vs. X champion
I think teams are a bit conservative with all of the new changes, but once people are familiar with the changes and can eliminate those variables, we can see a return to more flexible laning like we began to see through season 3 to help mitigate some of the "you must be able to beat X" situations. 2v1 mid has all but disappeared recently for no real reason, there are definitely still viable setups. Arguably more so with the changes, and once people start figuring it out, we'll see a lot more diverse picks...i hope...
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On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk.
draven is just the ultimate when ahead shits on you insanely hard adc. i honestly feel like he is a bit of a trap though. he has to push to take advantage of his passive and has no strong movement skills, making him easy to camp. so you either pick thresh and try and play a weird counter initiation strat in lane, which is weak vs direct dmg supports like annie or karma. or you pick annie and just hope to be so stronk in lane its too hard to gank. but if you have annie then you can just pick any adc and pick up free kills from 6-10 anyway, so why are you risking a draven pick.
my 2cents playing draven + x duo for the last 40 games or so.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk.
I think so, sivir and lucian have to get pretty close which can be punished brutally by a good draven. Arrow pretty much shit on CJ frost in OGN with draven (Featuring a triforce as well)
On December 18 2013 02:24 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk. draven is just the ultimate when ahead shits on you insanely hard adc. i honestly feel like he is a bit of a trap though. he has to push to take advantage of his passive and has no strong movement skills, making him easy to camp. so you either pick thresh and try and play a weird counter initiation strat in lane, which is weak vs direct dmg supports like annie or karma. or you pick annie and just hope to be so stronk in lane its too hard to gank. but if you have annie then you can just pick any adc and pick up free kills from 6-10 anyway, so why are you risking a draven pick. my 2cents playing draven + x duo for the last 40 games or so.
What about draven/karma, blood rush + karma's speed boost would be pretty good at both initiating and escape.
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On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk.
From what I understand is that sivir can't spellshield his damage like she can with other adc. And not only that she can't disengage off him pre6, cuz bloodrush punishes harassing him in range. So if she wants to hit him with her W, she's getting in his engage range. So effectively she's forced into playing fairly safe in lane. Which makes her a lot less of a threat in lane.
Lucian only has w harass that can hit draven out of his range, which is pretty weak sauce. And if you're in range to hit your q , you're in range to eat axes.
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On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk.
You don't bully Draven out of lane, he bullies you. Sivir still has garbage range and can't spellshield axe procs, and Draven with bloodrush will just run her down to the ground. Not sure about Lucian though.
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On December 18 2013 02:28 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk. You don't bully Draven out of lane, he bullies you. Sivir still has garbage range and can't spellshield axe procs, and Draven with bloodrush will just run her down to the ground. Not sure about Lucian though.
Same with lucian. If lucian wants to disengage he has to dash out. If he's doing that he's gunna burn through his manapool so fast.
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On December 18 2013 02:16 Alaric wrote:
I didn't want to use the "Zac/Jayce/etc. are still perfectly viable in pub play" card because then you automatically get the "everything's viable in soloQ anyway!" retort to the face. So it was my way of saying "just because you're not permaban in soloQ nor used in competitive play doesn't mean you're utter trash, between broken champions, FotM and player bias you're simply under the radar".
As for your tiers, I'd actually cut competitive in 2: the S class material (currently stuff like Shyvana, Zed/Ahri/Fizz before that, Zac/Elise even before, and previously Jayce/Kha'Zix) that teams fight for and dictate the draft, and the "fit to participate" which includes the rest (like, say, Jax now, or Jarvan: they aren't disputed picks, but they're still seeing comp play).
And I think I'd put much more champions in the "fit to participate" category than you, with the cave-at that despite being fit, pros simply are too fickle and/or don't let go of the memory of their OP status.
Fit to participate though is not that good of a definition. Shen right now is a good example. You can win with a Shen on your team, in fact, the Shen might end up being a great pick in the end. But realistically, that means your jungler and other lanes propelled him into that position and he just Shen'd through a mile wide hole (I mean, I just saw Shy look feeble on Shen). Amumu is a good jungle example of that; Morgana or Karthus mid; an Ezreal/Soraka or Sona/Vayne(Kog) botlane. That is all tier 2 stuff, because you need your team to carry you at some part of the game to a greater extent than would be acceptable against a team of equal skill.
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On December 18 2013 02:25 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk. I think so, sivir and lucian have to get pretty close which can be punished brutally by a good draven. Arrow pretty much shit on CJ frost in OGN with draven (Featuring a triforce as well) Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:24 turdburgler wrote:On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk. draven is just the ultimate when ahead shits on you insanely hard adc. i honestly feel like he is a bit of a trap though. he has to push to take advantage of his passive and has no strong movement skills, making him easy to camp. so you either pick thresh and try and play a weird counter initiation strat in lane, which is weak vs direct dmg supports like annie or karma. or you pick annie and just hope to be so stronk in lane its too hard to gank. but if you have annie then you can just pick any adc and pick up free kills from 6-10 anyway, so why are you risking a draven pick. my 2cents playing draven + x duo for the last 40 games or so. What about draven/karma, blood rush + karma's speed boost would be pretty good at both initiating and escape.
if blood rush + stand aside doesnt catch them then its like.. wtf are you even doing. if the adc's are both cs'ing then you should be in range with just dravens abilities to catch them. karma is an ok support at the moment when you are on the offensive, but she does nothing to protect dravens weaknesses. and thats only amplified in team fights. so while the early laning will be good, 1-4 or so, you will fall off hard after 20 ish minutes. draven has no way to get himself out of deep shit vs any assassin or bruiser, he needs his support to be able to peel properly, and thats not karmas forte.
On December 18 2013 02:28 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 02:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On December 18 2013 02:13 wei2coolman wrote:On December 18 2013 01:02 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wouldn't call Zac a failure: he's still strong, he's just not overbearingly strong in the unstoppable+unkillable+huge damage sense. He's still got more damage, cc and tankiness than Nautilus and Maokai for example. He's still able to initiate from 1550 range, although his damage is lower if he wants tenacity (unless jungling, where he can get it from golem spirit and still go sorcs).
Jayce still has stupidly strong poke, and level 2-3 all-ins, along with excellent wave clear, mobility, and safety in lane. But he doesn't have the broken dps (well, not as much, W still very strong but BC fix reduces it and Tear nerf doesn't make Muramana weaker, just come too late to people's tastes) nor the teamfighting prowess anymore, which give him a weakness. If people wanted poke comp they'd still use Jayce, but they're more oriented toward direct combat: Jayce and Kha'Zix combined good teamfighting and poke, so one of the two came for "free" (assuming you want strengths and weaknesses in your champions), which is why they (and later Zed) were so omnipresent. Once nerfed, they're still super strong at what they're intended to do, but if it isn't what people want from a pick they won't use them. TL;DR comp. play dislikes champions with clear drawbacks (exceptions like Lee Sin and Renekton when his lategame was perceived as "weak") and only play the best, but it doesn't make those who are "only" good bad, unless 90% of the pool is straight-up bad. There's a chasm between permaban status and Sion-level "if you say this I'll call you on everything being viable in Bronze" (or Olaf'd/Eve'd status) and I believe most champions dropped from comp. play after a nerf fall into said chasm rather than Olaf'd. + Show Spoiler +Regarding the AD carries, that's partly why I liked Sivir so much: her ult allowed more to be more team-oriented and she brought utility that shaped the composition/goals in ways more interesting than, say, Vayne (huge damage+as good alone as in teamfights) or Cait (who's somewhat autonomous in her push mindset). The fact that she was being remade and has stronger defensive assets than Ashe or Varus (other marksmen bringing utility) made her more likely to be picked too, which was nice.
I'd love to see more marksmen of that caliber over "ball of damage" Jinx (I mean she's got character and stuff, but it's mostly her VO, in terms of gameplay her big burst and dps are what define her). When the last Q (more range, travel time) and E (less base damage, more ratios) nerfs came out for Corki, it really annoyed me because Corki had a very well-defined power curve thanks to his lopsided kit: strong in lane, very strong at level 6 in a very different way from Varus, Graves or Vayne, powerful spells powering his midgame and lack of scaling making him weaker in late game direct dps (+ valkyrie less potent when burst grows), but they tried to put him in line with all others by weakening his early game and slightly buffing his late game. I wouldn't necssearily be against nerfs, but the way his Q was changed made him so much closer to the rest it was painful.
Other carries with lopsided kits/power peaks are Graves, Draven, MF, who don't see competitive play (and not much play at all), save for the odd Graves which lacks success, and Ezreal because he trades his safety for a low lategame damage output, and the big outputs of Kog and Tristana in the very late game.
I'd like to see more early/mid game oriented champions and particularly marksmen/fighters, acknowledged as such, with what it entails on their later power drop and the way they can shape the game flow when they're strong. But Riot seems to dislike it because of how it forces their opponent to accordingly play safer (eg. "it limits their options!!1") and I really feat the day the likes of Pantheon become popular. TL;DR give us more Ashe/Sivir and less Jinx please. Also stop shying away from FotM Corki's kind of power curve, it was funnier when Draven couldn't utterly crush anymore but was still strong enough to get picked and dictate midgame-oriented compositions. Draven becoming relevant again for same reason now. He dumps in lane super hard He supposedly counters the FotM ADCs (Lucian/Sivir I think is what I heard). I don't exactly see it though, does he just out damage them early? idk. You don't bully Draven out of lane, he bullies you. Sivir still has garbage range and can't spellshield axe procs, and Draven with bloodrush will just run her down to the ground. Not sure about Lucian though.
lucian imo hard counters draven, which seems to go against general opinion. because lucians passive completely negates axe bonus damage. so you are playing effectively an adc with no abilities which is made up by having an insane free damage boost from axes, against an adc with the same basic damage (in trades) but who also has abilities. for draven to bully lucian he needs to be hitting 3-4 auto attacks, which early game is effectively an all in. and thats ok, but being forced to all in every trade? thats bad.
havent played against a good sivir ever so cant even comment
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Draven's damage is the only adc that hits like s1 adcs. If he can survive initial burst of engagement he should be 2 shotting any squishies and 4 shotting tanks.
As far as supports are concerned, morg is a pretty nice pick, blackshield is so good on him, let's him truck along and brutally wreck everyone. As far as peel you can have your jungle be more peel oriented.
For lucian to trade equally with draven he has to hit both w and q. And weave his passive inbetween each. That's 4 autoattacks from draven. Want to escape afterwords? You have to burn your e or eat another 1 or 2 axes on the bloodrush chase. Guess what though? He burns a lot less mana in each trade if he keeps his Q up. Eventually lucian loses out in mana, and draven continues snowballing lane with mana advantage. Pretty much lucian is forced to play like he did pre buff with q mana glitch. And that's to say, underwhelming.
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hahah look at this guy, thinking solo q players have a fucking clue about peeling for people.
how is this draven magically attacking twice as fast as lucian.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On December 18 2013 02:45 turdburgler wrote:
hahah look at this guy, thinking solo q players have a fucking clue about peeling for people.
A leona once stunned a renekton diving at me, it was the happiest day of my life.
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On December 18 2013 02:45 turdburgler wrote:
hahah look at this guy, thinking solo q players have a fucking clue about peeling for people.
how is this draven magically attacking twice as fast as lucian.
Each spell cast = 1 aa.
Each aa = 1 aa
2 spells 2 rounds of aa around 4 draven aa.
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I'm not sure if there is an ability in the game as powerful as stand aside that nobody talks about.
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