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[Patch 3.11] General Discussion - Page 82

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Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
September 10 2013 15:29 GMT
#1621
On September 10 2013 23:36 onlywonderboy wrote:
EU Mids pretty godly compared to NA Mids hue. But yeah, it's gonna be hard to compete against Dade and Faker.

EU mids are lightyears ahead of their NA competition. The likes of Alexich, Xpeke, and even players like Forellenlord, Bjergsen, and Nukeduck are far better than Scarra, Reginald, Link, and Mancloud.

EU's tops are serviceable, but where EU really lacks is good AD play. Where I think they'll falter is to those teams that do have strong bot lanes (Korea/China). I don't see how EU can hold up with the likes of Yellowstar feeding 24/7 as Thresh and Genja feeding with his no ASPD build for Gambit. They're better than NA because their mid play is better, but they'll falter to legit bot lanes (Mata/Imp, Piglet/Pooh, Pray/Cain).

When you have the worst AD carry representing you at Allstars (Yellowscrub), you know you're in trouble.
God Bless
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 10 2013 15:32 GMT
#1622
On September 11 2013 00:29 Roffles wrote:

When you have the worst AD carry representing you at Allstars (Yellowscrub), you know you're in trouble.


Zuna.
TranslatorBaa!
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
September 10 2013 15:33 GMT
#1623
On September 11 2013 00:26 MattBarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:22 Roffles wrote:
On September 10 2013 22:31 oneofthem wrote:
don't know where this dade doubt comes from. he's only had one subpar performance against faker. he's at least ryu's level

Pretty much this. Dade's picked his game up so much since a few months ago. There's no shame losing to the best mid in the world.

I also don't understand where the Homme doubt comes from. To say someone like Soaz, who got absolutely rocked at Allstars, is going to "handily crush" Homme is ridiculous and has no weight to it. Let's be honest. Homme's clearly the weak point of MVP Ozone, but he fills his job well and he's able to hold his own against some of the best in the business (Shy, Flame, etc.).

I'm pretty sure Homme would rock Soaz if he had the chance to 1v1, and even if he were to have something happen to him, Dandy would come save the lane for him.

I'm thinking EU gets one team out of groups in Group B (probably Fnatic), but to say Fnatic has a good shot against any Korean team (even Najin) is highly questionable.

You never know man. No one thought an EU team would get 2nd at Ipl 5. Though the Korean scene has come tremendously far since then, you can't count the season 1 champs out just yet

I dream of Fnatic becoming the Stephano of LoL but i'm a big Fnatic fanboy so take that with a grain of salt

The thing is, Fnatic at IPL 5 had a strong bot lane, and Korean play at the time wasn't as defined and strong back then. Let's be real, Puszu's been very serviceable for Fnatic, but Rekkles was super strong at IPL5, which essentially gave Fnatic another threat in the team. The way EUs play is solely mid-centric, which will not work against good Korean/Chinese teams these days.

Fnatic still has the best chance of the European teams because I think their bot is the most solid of the 3 teams. Tack on the experience factor, the fact that XPeke makes massive plays, and good team coordination, and I think they look good to advance from Group B over Gambit.
God Bless
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
September 10 2013 15:33 GMT
#1624
On September 11 2013 00:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:29 Roffles wrote:

When you have the worst AD carry representing you at Allstars (Yellowscrub), you know you're in trouble.


Zuna.

I didn't know Zuna was an AD carry. I thought he was a melee fighter.
God Bless
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
September 10 2013 15:34 GMT
#1625
On September 11 2013 00:29 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2013 23:36 onlywonderboy wrote:
EU Mids pretty godly compared to NA Mids hue. But yeah, it's gonna be hard to compete against Dade and Faker.

EU mids are lightyears ahead of their NA competition. The likes of Alexich, Xpeke, and even players like Forellenlord, Bjergsen, and Nukeduck are far better than Scarra, Reginald, Link, and Mancloud.

EU's tops are serviceable, but where EU really lacks is good AD play. Where I think they'll falter is to those teams that do have strong bot lanes (Korea/China). I don't see how EU can hold up with the likes of Yellowstar feeding 24/7 as Thresh and Genja feeding with his no ASPD build for Gambit. They're better than NA because their mid play is better, but they'll falter to legit bot lanes (Mata/Imp, Piglet/Pooh, Pray/Cain).

When you have the worst AD carry representing you at Allstars (Yellowscrub), you know you're in trouble.


To be fair this season there is a lot of improvement in ad position.Creaton/freeze showed some promise and tabzz plays solid in general.I never really understood all the praise genja gets from all other bot laners but maybe he'll surprise us.Puszu has a good varus but dunno what he'll do if he can't get it.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 10 2013 15:37 GMT
#1626
On September 11 2013 00:33 Roffles wrote:

Fnatic still has the best chance of the European teams because I think their bot is the most solid of the 3 teams. Tack on the experience factor, the fact that XPeke makes massive plays, and good team coordination, and I think they look good to advance from Group B over Gambit.


I like Gambit over Fnatic. I think Gambit's flaws over the season will be marginalized by the long preparation and rotation in LAN vs. a variety of different styles/regions format.

I don't claim to be an expert on EU, but I don't think Fnatic is as versatile as Gambit.
TranslatorBaa!
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 15:42:08
September 10 2013 15:39 GMT
#1627
On September 11 2013 00:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:33 Roffles wrote:

Fnatic still has the best chance of the European teams because I think their bot is the most solid of the 3 teams. Tack on the experience factor, the fact that XPeke makes massive plays, and good team coordination, and I think they look good to advance from Group B over Gambit.


I like Gambit over Fnatic. I think Gambit's flaws over the season will be marginalized by the long preparation and rotation in LAN vs. a variety of different styles/regions format.

I don't claim to be an expert on EU, but I don't think Fnatic is as versatile as Gambit.

Things I like about Gambit:
Diamondprox's creativity. If he brings out a new champ and takes the world by storm, Gambit could make a deep run if lucky.
Alexich. He's pretty good.

Things I dislike about Gambit:
Darien feeds every other game.
Genja
Genja's builds
Genja's uselessness in a game
Voidle's new and doesn't look that spectacular.

Things I like about Fnatic:
Xpeke's play-making with TP
Stability at top and jungle.
Puszu's Varus/Cait

Things I dislike about Fnatic:
Anything Yellowstar plays
Yellowstar's feeding
Puszu not on Varus/Cait
God Bless
Flicky
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
England2670 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 15:49:35
September 10 2013 15:45 GMT
#1628
I respect Fnatic for taking Puszu to worlds, but also fuck Fnatic for not bringing Rekkles and practicing with him. I think they'll massively regret it. Frankly, they should have been practicing with him as soon as the Worlds dates were confirmed. I've said a lot about EU bot lane before but aside from Rekkles, Creaton is the only one worth a damn on an international scale. Europe are going to lose through their botlanes at worlds. The European style AD is going to get rolled over when Korea or China are given half a chance. The EU teams going don't even have top level supports at the moment.

The more I watch, the more I think that China may fall if Europe play their best, but I honestly doubt Korea will for this reason. I think there's a small chance that LD shut down OMG completely with their contrasting play-styles but that will be down more to OMG choking and only if the style clash works out in LDs favour. More likely they'll get rolled.

Fnatic is my pick to advance from Group B, but if Gambit turn it on, it could just as easily be them. I'm kinda bummed that a majority of group teams will be going home but hopefully the group stages will be fun.

My prediction for post tournament: European teams become more ruthless with their lineups. I'm expecting weaker players to be booted. The top Korean teams don't have a weak player in them, every European team has at least one dead weight. Until Fnatic get Rekkles back and change Yellowstar for a proper support, Europe aren't going to threaten Korea. Hopefully better coaches get hired.

If a Korean team drop a series to a non-Korean I will eat my hat. Even Najin-Black Sword.
Liquipedia"I was seriously looking for a black guy" - MrHoon
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 10 2013 15:47 GMT
#1629
On September 11 2013 00:45 Flicky wrote:

I more I watch, the more I think that China may fall if Europe play their best, but I honestly doubt Korea will for this reason.




We might not even see any China vs EU outside of Lemondogs-OMG in group round robin, and OMG is gonna 2-0 that shit ezpz.
TranslatorBaa!
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9808 Posts
September 10 2013 15:50 GMT
#1630
Technically GG.EU is from europe.
boomer hands
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 10 2013 15:52 GMT
#1631
On September 11 2013 00:39 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:37 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On September 11 2013 00:33 Roffles wrote:

Fnatic still has the best chance of the European teams because I think their bot is the most solid of the 3 teams. Tack on the experience factor, the fact that XPeke makes massive plays, and good team coordination, and I think they look good to advance from Group B over Gambit.


I like Gambit over Fnatic. I think Gambit's flaws over the season will be marginalized by the long preparation and rotation in LAN vs. a variety of different styles/regions format.

I don't claim to be an expert on EU, but I don't think Fnatic is as versatile as Gambit.

Things I like about Gambit:
Diamondprox's creativity. If he brings out a new champ and takes the world by storm, Gambit could make a deep run if lucky.
Alexich. He's pretty good.

Things I dislike about Gambit:
Darien feeds every other game.
Genja
Genja's builds
Genja's uselessness in a game
Voidle's new and doesn't look that spectacular.

Things I like about Fnatic:
Xpeke's play-making with TP
Stability at top and jungle.
Puszu's Varus/Cait

Things I dislike about Fnatic:
Anything Yellowstar plays
Yellowstar's feeding
Puszu not on Varus/Cait


[Yango]But dat CIS LAN factor[/Yango]

Stability is not a good thing at a truly world-class tournament IMO, I'd much rather take the volatile, high ceiling teams because I think in the end, to excel against other top-notch teams, that's what you need. Stability is great for consistently shitting on people worse than you, but if you're close i skill level, I'd rather take Genja and Darien.

That's my preference anyways.

And this doesn't apply to teams who are consistent in the I am consistently better than you way like Flash.
TranslatorBaa!
Flicky
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
England2670 Posts
September 10 2013 15:52 GMT
#1632
On September 11 2013 00:50 seRapH wrote:
Technically GG.EU is from europe.


They'll take one game from TSM. That's it.
Liquipedia"I was seriously looking for a black guy" - MrHoon
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 15:55:51
September 10 2013 15:53 GMT
#1633
On September 11 2013 00:33 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:26 MattBarry wrote:
On September 11 2013 00:22 Roffles wrote:
On September 10 2013 22:31 oneofthem wrote:
don't know where this dade doubt comes from. he's only had one subpar performance against faker. he's at least ryu's level

Pretty much this. Dade's picked his game up so much since a few months ago. There's no shame losing to the best mid in the world.

I also don't understand where the Homme doubt comes from. To say someone like Soaz, who got absolutely rocked at Allstars, is going to "handily crush" Homme is ridiculous and has no weight to it. Let's be honest. Homme's clearly the weak point of MVP Ozone, but he fills his job well and he's able to hold his own against some of the best in the business (Shy, Flame, etc.).

I'm pretty sure Homme would rock Soaz if he had the chance to 1v1, and even if he were to have something happen to him, Dandy would come save the lane for him.

I'm thinking EU gets one team out of groups in Group B (probably Fnatic), but to say Fnatic has a good shot against any Korean team (even Najin) is highly questionable.

You never know man. No one thought an EU team would get 2nd at Ipl 5. Though the Korean scene has come tremendously far since then, you can't count the season 1 champs out just yet

I dream of Fnatic becoming the Stephano of LoL but i'm a big Fnatic fanboy so take that with a grain of salt

The thing is, Fnatic at IPL 5 had a strong bot lane, and Korean play at the time wasn't as defined and strong back then. Let's be real, Puszu's been very serviceable for Fnatic, but Rekkles was super strong at IPL5, which essentially gave Fnatic another threat in the team. The way EUs play is solely mid-centric, which will not work against good Korean/Chinese teams these days.

Fnatic still has the best chance of the European teams because I think their bot is the most solid of the 3 teams. Tack on the experience factor, the fact that XPeke makes massive plays, and good team coordination, and I think they look good to advance from Group B over Gambit.

The thing about koreans in S2 was that they had a very polished game style, strategy, and training but what they lacked was talent and the players at each role who could be consistent and threatening. They didn't have the "all star" players. Hell, imo the only all stars in korea were Shy, Maknoon and Madlife at the time. Everyone else's level was just not that amazing. Right now they have no weaknesses and each team at worlds has amazing players at every role.

I think we're seeing the same in NA right now. The LCS structure and the NA teams studying Korean teams has had a good effect on their early game execution, and in that sense I don't think they're behind anyone in the world whatsoever. They still have improvements to make elsewhere, and particularly so in the talent department.

Najin Sword is the korean dark horse. Other koreans talk VERY highly of each of their players and it's not just pray. Watch, Cain, Expression are all very scary players.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-10 15:55:56
September 10 2013 15:55 GMT
#1634
Cheep. Genja is consistently bad. End of story. Soaz has the potential to carry games. Darien only has potential to feed every other game.

When Gambit wins, it's off mid and jungle. When Fnatic wins, it's cause Xpeke is a god and Soaz probably didn't get destroyed too hard 1v2.
God Bless
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
September 10 2013 15:55 GMT
#1635
So I'm finding out that the #1 way to meet diamond players in queue is to play aram. There's 1 or 2 in about 33% of my games and it's pretty easy to tell them apart from everyone else.

Also I'm like 82 over 53 in aram because I'm too scared to solo queue ranked for elise's skin.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9808 Posts
September 10 2013 15:56 GMT
#1636
Saying koreans have no weakness is a bit of an overstatement. Koreans have weaknesses, just none that are easily exploitable, especially not by NA or EU.

I didn't see any of NLB, quite excited to see Pray and Expession play again.
boomer hands
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
September 10 2013 15:58 GMT
#1637
I've mentioned it before but Najin is ridiculously underestimated right now, they are very very strong and I fully expect them to make a much stronger showing than people expect. NA/EU seem to be writing of Sword or something lol

On September 11 2013 00:55 Roffles wrote:
Cheep. Genja is consistently bad. End of story. Soaz has the potential to carry games. Darien only has potential to feed every other game.

When Gambit wins, it's off mid and jungle. When Fnatic wins, it's cause Xpeke is a god and Soaz probably didn't get destroyed too hard 1v2.


Pls. In Genja and Darien I trust. Ye of little faith, GG will show you come worlds.
TranslatorBaa!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 10 2013 16:01 GMT
#1638
On September 11 2013 00:52 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Stability is not a good thing at a truly world-class tournament IMO, I'd much rather take the volatile, high ceiling teams because I think in the end, to excel against other top-notch teams, that's what you need. Stability is great for consistently shitting on people worse than you, but if you're close i skill level, I'd rather take Genja and Darien.

That's my preference anyways.

And this doesn't apply to teams who are consistent in the I am consistently better than you way like Flash.

I might agree if we were talking about a tournament with a different format, but in a single elim tournament the way Worlds is set up, I think consistency is very valuable. If you fuck up once, you're out, and you play a LOT of teams, particularly if you're coming out of groups.
Moderator
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
September 10 2013 16:02 GMT
#1639
On September 10 2013 16:14 Gahlo wrote:
Haven't read it yet, cause I'm the middle of hating my subconscious, but sneak peak at Riots S4 goals-
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41404350#41404350


I agree with TheYango on the jungle/support gold issue, but I'm going to illuminate the problem from a different angle.

+ Show Spoiler [Jungle/Support Income] +
You may recall that in past I predicted farming junglers would become viable. In fact, I made this prediction twice. The first time I thought the ubiquitous vision from Sightstones and the apparent farm-centric focus of the new jungle would be prohibitive for ganking. The second time Riot increased the jungle's value, enough that I thought it would be the final push to make farming junglers competitive. When Riot changed the jungle in a way which might have benefited farming junglers again, I kept my mouth shut.

There were two basic problems I overlooked when I made my errant predictions. First, the threat of a jungler's gank is extremely valuable. The worth of a gank can't be readily measured in gold, but simply the threat of it has a huge impact on the game. Second, Riot cannot make jungle camps unclearable by laners without making them unclearable by junglers. Unless every jungle camp becomes as difficult as Dragon/Baron, laners can and will take them for themselves. My predictions failed because simple gold changes will never allow farming to match or supersede ganking so long as laners can take camps themselves (at least not without causing other, larger balance issues).

That's not a problem Riot can solve without tearing the jungle apart and flipping it inside out, and it's arguably not even the root cause. It's ironic that Morello talks about problems vs symptoms, because that's exactly the case here. Riot wants to increase jungler/support income because they can't afford cool items, but being unable to afford something is as much a function of price as it is income. The actual problem is that junglers and supports can't buy cool items because they're too expensive.

So my conclusion is the same as TheYango's. If Riot wants to make junglers and supports feel richer, they need cheap, slot-inefficient items with cool powers. Shurelia's/Shard/Ohmwrecker et al. need to have prices similar to a Sightstone.


I also have some thoughts on the mobility creep issue:

+ Show Spoiler [Mobility Creep] +
Before I begin, I'm focused primarily on gap closers/creators. Movement speed boosts are a form of mobility, but are generally far, far less problematic due to the mechanics of slows.

I don't really like Morello's perspective on the issue, for a few reasons.

First, I don't think he appreciates how mobility changes the game. He cites True Damage and %HP Damage as sister mechanics which require Riot to make sure "some cost is paid", but because you can itemize around them True Damage and %HP Damage don't dramatically alter the viability of champions. Mobility does, and numerous champions have suffered at one time or another due to mobility creep.

As a result, mobility creep leads to power creep. The more mobility becomes the norm, the more you have to give a champion who lacks it. Kog'maw has been MIA for practically all of Season 3 because he lacks both mobility and anything special to make up for it. Draven and Twitch (post-remake) became popular due to the sheer damage they were given in compensation for their lack of mobility.

In short, there's a reason that 9 out of the last 10 champions had mobility, with the sole excludee being a support.

Second, Morello glosses over the issues with mobility. When LoL launched only 14 out of the original 40 champions had gap closers. Today roughly 56 champions have gap closers, an increase from 32% of champions to 49%. Even if the ratio had remained the same, having a greater and greater available pool of gap-closing champions alters the landscape, especially when most of those champions are bruisers/assassins/initiators.

I don't think Morello is out and out wrong, but I'm disappointed because it sounds like we won't be reversing the current trends. Look forward to 70%+ of all new champions having gap closers.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
September 10 2013 16:03 GMT
#1640
On September 11 2013 00:58 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I've mentioned it before but Najin is ridiculously underestimated right now, they are very very strong and I fully expect them to make a much stronger showing than people expect. NA/EU seem to be writing of Sword or something lol

Show nested quote +
On September 11 2013 00:55 Roffles wrote:
Cheep. Genja is consistently bad. End of story. Soaz has the potential to carry games. Darien only has potential to feed every other game.

When Gambit wins, it's off mid and jungle. When Fnatic wins, it's cause Xpeke is a god and Soaz probably didn't get destroyed too hard 1v2.


Pls. In Genja and Darien I trust. Ye of little faith, GG will show you come worlds.

You're a fool if you think Sword is bad imo. They're on the same level as ozone, probably a tier below Bullets/skt
Platinum Support GOD
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