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On August 21 2013 07:18 Ketara wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to them slightly nerfing dshield and making it 400g instead of 440.
It's really good in its niche, but I'm scared when I run it in top lane of the enemy champions lane swapping and then me only having 1 potion and an item that's only good against autoattack harass.
So you're against an AD carry based lane and you're afraid of having an item that's only good against auto harass and has +10 HP5?
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Also something I think worth nothing for jungle. I have ran about 4-5 games now (high sample size, I know..) where I ran the GP5 utility mastery and went philo stone first and ended up with equal or very close to equal gold with the laners, in 2 of the game having the most gold in the game.
Wonder if that style of jungling will come back at all, if you can get that much gold, might be worth it.
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On August 21 2013 07:46 Diamond wrote:
Also something I think worth nothing. I have ran about 4-5 games now (high sample size, I know..) where I ran the GP5 utility mastery and went philo stone first and ended up with equal or very close to equal gold with the laners, in 2 of the game having the most gold in the game.
Wonder if that style will come back at all, if you can get that much gold, might be worth it.
How did the other lane not just destroy you? All in all day every day after first back.
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Ugh, started off 5-1, lost my last 3 placements due to toxic, idiotic team mates, now 5-4 and hoping to god I don't end up in Bronze, cause I'm pretty sure that's where hell resides.
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On August 21 2013 07:46 Diamond wrote:
Also something I think worth nothing. I have ran about 4-5 games now (high sample size, I know..) where I ran the GP5 utility mastery and went philo stone first and ended up with equal or very close to equal gold with the laners, in 2 of the game having the most gold in the game.
Wonder if that style will come back at all, if you can get that much gold, might be worth it.
We could math it out pretty easily...
+ Show Spoiler +The 4 points in greed gets you 2gp/10 or 12 gold a minute. Or a massive 240 gold when the other team crumples under your gold advantage and surrenders the instant Riot lets them.
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On August 21 2013 07:50 Kinie wrote:
Ugh, started off 5-1, lost my last 3 placements due to toxic, idiotic team mates, now 5-4 and hoping to god I don't end up in Bronze, cause I'm pretty sure that's where hell resides.
It seems like riot puts you with bad people intentionally. In my promo I was 2-0, then encountered the worst players ive seen in a long time. I had an ap nami mid who just "ganked" lanes and fed some kills. Not to mention the amazing tf who rushed a bortk and then black cleaver.
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On August 21 2013 07:42 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 07:18 Ketara wrote:
I wouldn't be opposed to them slightly nerfing dshield and making it 400g instead of 440.
It's really good in its niche, but I'm scared when I run it in top lane of the enemy champions lane swapping and then me only having 1 potion and an item that's only good against autoattack harass. So you're against an AD carry based lane and you're afraid of having an item that's only good against auto harass and has +10 HP5?
1 potion is not nearly enough to sustain against a 1v2 lane even with the damage block. On top of that, most lanes have significant amounts of non-auto attack based harass.
On August 21 2013 07:46 Diamond wrote:
Also something I think worth nothing. I have ran about 4-5 games now (high sample size, I know..) where I ran the GP5 utility mastery and went philo stone first and ended up with equal or very close to equal gold with the laners, in 2 of the game having the most gold in the game.
Wonder if that style will come back at all, if you can get that much gold, might be worth it.
I think it's more likely that you got the gold parity with laners due to high assists/kill participation than the actual impact of the philo.
Although I have seen games where the support ended up with more gold than the jungler at the end of the game due to gp/10 items despite more or less equal kill participation. Those games are usually 40+ minutes though, which is long after the philo/kage paid for itself.
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On August 21 2013 07:47 Pooshlmer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 07:46 Diamond wrote:
Also something I think worth nothing. I have ran about 4-5 games now (high sample size, I know..) where I ran the GP5 utility mastery and went philo stone first and ended up with equal or very close to equal gold with the laners, in 2 of the game having the most gold in the game.
Wonder if that style will come back at all, if you can get that much gold, might be worth it. How did the other lane not just destroy you? All in all day every day after first back.
I forgot a word, jungle. This is as a jungler.
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What champs were you running with the gold masteries and philo? And exactly what masteries did you run?
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I stopped getting Philo Stone on Supports a good bit ago. I just rush Sightstone because Heart of Gold. If I want Shurelya's, I actually get the Kindlegem before I get the Philo.
I get a Doran's Ring on Support Zyra and Sona occasionally.
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how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience.
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On August 21 2013 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:
What champs were you running with the gold masteries and philo? And exactly what masteries did you run?
I've tried the GP5 strat with Maokai and Sakrner. Skarner still sucks because he's skarner. But every game I have ended with Top 1-2 gold values on the team (was actually 1st every time but one, where I was a bit behind the ADC).
Masteries: + Show Spoiler +
On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience.
The same way you did in Season 2, with careful positioning and awareness. Also most of the time at the 700 gold mark people are sitting on just spirit stones + boots (maybe) so they don't have damage either.
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Somehow salvaged it in my last game, went Zac jungle with a 3/0/5 KDA and got placed into Silver 4. Time to start working my way up that ladder!
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On August 21 2013 08:18 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:04 ticklishmusic wrote:
What champs were you running with the gold masteries and philo? And exactly what masteries did you run? I've tried the GP5 strat with Maokai and Sakrner. Skarner still sucks because he's skarner. But every game I have ended with Top 1-2 gold values on the team (was actually 1st every time but one, where I was a bit behind the ADC). Masteries: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience. The same way you did in Season 2, with careful positioning and awareness. Also most of the time at the 700 gold mark people are sitting on just spirit stones + boots (maybe) so they don't have damage either.
The problem with going Philo on the jungler in S3 is more that Philo is effectively a dead-end item in most cases, which sets you back 700 gold until the Philo pays for itself and/or you sell it, which is around the 20 minute mark.
In S2, you could afford to go philo since Shurelya's was so good. Now, not only is Philo a dead-end item, you can get comparable (arguably better) stats from going spirit stone, which also builds into some of the most cost-efficient items in the game. Philo is just simply strictly worse than the alternatives.
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On August 21 2013 02:39 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 02:27 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 21 2013 02:24 mr_tolkien wrote:On August 21 2013 02:21 Fusilero wrote:On August 21 2013 02:19 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 21 2013 02:18 NeoIllusions wrote:
Played Sejuani today, had to make use of Soviet skin.
Have to say, not bad. Well if you bought the skin you might as well play her lol. I buy skins for the collectible. It's why I have championship riven only played her like 4 times but I can say I have championship riven. I must missing something but what's the point of collecting data bytes on a server ? How long have you been playing League? What's the point? I get that it might be an innocuous question but it's a pretty obvious answer and you do yourself no service by asking it like you did. I play league because I love games of mind against human players :o Originally I was a chess and go player before discovering PC gaming 3 years ago. But collecting something immaterial is something I really don't understand, and no, I don't see the obvious answer here...
Probably won't see this, but what rank did you get to in Go? Are you still playing? Where did you play? KGS?
Secondly, about this locket discussion. Riot just made the item so much slower in timing. I see no real reason to get an aegis when a spirit visage timing is so much better and more effective early game. Now it's more of a late game luxury item than actually being mandatory anywhere. I'd rather buy a SV + wardens or giant's belt.
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On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience.
I feel like People on TL greatly exaggerate the # of counterganks in SoloQ.
IMO it is really an elite level skill to do it properly, and unless you are in nearly perfect position your laner is dead by the time you make it there, and then its a 2-0 or 2-1 at best situation. Even if you are at wraiths when, for instance, mid gets ganked, you cant make it to lane in time to do much except clean up if one of them gets really low, or, if you can jump over walls using skills like Jarvan, you don't have E-Q so you basically are a meatshield anyways with no kill potential.
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On August 21 2013 08:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience. I feel like People on TL greatly exaggerate the # of counterganks in SoloQ. IMO it is really an elite level skill to do it properly, and unless you are in nearly perfect position your laner is dead by the time you make it there, and then its a 2-0 or 2-1 at best situation. Even if you are at wraiths when, for instance, mid gets ganked, you cant make it to lane in time to do much except clean up if one of them gets really low, or, if you can jump over walls using skills like Jarvan, you don't have E-Q so you basically are a meatshield anyways with no kill potential.
Eh. It's reasonably easy to predict when/where ganks will come once you get to a certain level. I mean, there are very specific timings for ganks. For example, the level 3 double buff gank timing is pretty easy to predict. The level 2 gank timing is also pretty easy to see coming assuming certain champs.
I do agree that the prevalence of counter-ganking is probably overstated on TL though.
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On August 21 2013 07:25 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 07:16 onlywonderboy wrote:On August 21 2013 07:11 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 21 2013 07:01 clickrush wrote:On August 21 2013 06:24 TheYango wrote:
In retrospect I would have liked Riot nerfing Aegis simply by making it a dead-end item with an appropriate slot/cost-efficiency tradeoff again (while keeping the item decent), but god forbid, Riot considers that sinful or something.
So instead of doing that, Riot gutted Aegis and made it's upgrade really efficient. riot has that weird item desing principle where cheap and basic slot inefficient items should have less stats/gold so ppl dont stack them or go for early strategic spikes with them. It is counterintuitive and doesnt feel as epic according to riot. I'am pretty sure this is a case of them underestimating the players. Also this principle keeps on biting them in the ass especially because they can't fix support and partly also jungle itemization with that principle except maybe if they do something drastic somewhere else like removing ratios on supports or making farm meaningless. the way they could fix all of this is by making all the typical support items stronger/cost and cheaper, but emphasizing non scaling benefits at the same time. For example by decreasing the active cooldown, the base health and the cost on shureilas and increasing the manaregen. Basicly make support items cheaper and more epic but lower scaling stats. Also when farmers incorporate 1 or mb 2 support items into their builds like in s2 then whats the big deal? The big deal was more around when literally every single champion went HoG->Philo regardless of role or item build path. That was kinda dumb in that there was no variety. Similar to how when everyone opened Dorans+2 in S1 or Boots+3 in S2. If nothing else, nerfing gp/10 items increased item variety in build paths. I agree with mostly everything else you said though. I think Riot needs to buff Doran ring and shield, personally. Doran items are already notorious for non-scaling benefits but can give you a nice early power spike. Itemization is the one area I always though Dota did well in that since more expensive items are stronger, but actually less cost-effective, supports have more meaningful item choices since they can actually afford items that don't suck. On top of that, there are a ton of reasonably priced/powered mid-game item options, whereas in LoL, every single one of those options have been nerfed so that they're so incredibly situational. I don't think DRing and DShield are in that bad of a spot... I think DRing is in an okay spot. I personally miss the 475 gold DRing though. The stats were better, but now the lower cost is nice in that it impacts your overall build path less. DShield is decent right now, but I think it's really awkward in that you will honestly never really buy it unless you're ahead on a reasonably tanky champion. In top lane, it's simply too risky to walk into lane with only 1 potion with no offensive, all-in stats (like red elixer/pot/ward start). Then if you get ahead, you generally want to snowball your lane, which means getting offensive stats and/or starting your real items. As a result, you really only buy DShield in very niche situations. In my hundreds of S3 games, I’ve honestly only seen DShield bought with success, where I could reasonably say no or very few other items would’ve been better, in like >10~15 games.
I'd say DShield is a much more attractive buy than before now that they lowered the price and removed the armor component. Are you going mid with Zed against someone like Ori, Lux, or TF? Well now that DShield only grants health and helps you against ranged autoattack, your level 1-3 is way smoother with the unique passive compared to the longsword + 2pot opening.
The other example I already gave in an earlier post is Alistar vs. Lulu/Ez or any other strong kiting ranged duo at bot lane. You want to negate as much poke damage as possible as you are an all-in champion so you need to keep your health before finding a good opportunity to go deep. I wouldn't open with it unless the enemy jungler has no early gank potential but it's something you might want to consider buying on the first or second trip back.
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On August 21 2013 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience. I feel like People on TL greatly exaggerate the # of counterganks in SoloQ. IMO it is really an elite level skill to do it properly, and unless you are in nearly perfect position your laner is dead by the time you make it there, and then its a 2-0 or 2-1 at best situation. Even if you are at wraiths when, for instance, mid gets ganked, you cant make it to lane in time to do much except clean up if one of them gets really low, or, if you can jump over walls using skills like Jarvan, you don't have E-Q so you basically are a meatshield anyways with no kill potential. Eh. It's reasonably easy to predict when/where ganks will come once you get to a certain level. I mean, there are very specific timings for ganks. For example, the level 3 double buff gank timing is pretty easy to predict. The level 2 gank timing is also pretty easy to see coming assuming certain champs. I do agree that the prevalence of counter-ganking is probably overstated on TL though.
But the lvl 3 countergank isn't even an issue with regards to the philo stone thing. Plus, you don't do that gank if you are, for instance Amumu vs. a Jarvan or Udyr jungle, unless your laner is, like, Darius.
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On August 21 2013 08:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 08:49 Ryuu314 wrote:On August 21 2013 08:44 cLutZ wrote:On August 21 2013 08:14 LaNague wrote:
how do u gank with a philo stone jungler?
No dmg increase, no HP. If the enemy jungler counters ganks, its instantdouble kill. And even 1v2 they might just turn around and suicide ignite kill you.
Thats in my experience. I feel like People on TL greatly exaggerate the # of counterganks in SoloQ. IMO it is really an elite level skill to do it properly, and unless you are in nearly perfect position your laner is dead by the time you make it there, and then its a 2-0 or 2-1 at best situation. Even if you are at wraiths when, for instance, mid gets ganked, you cant make it to lane in time to do much except clean up if one of them gets really low, or, if you can jump over walls using skills like Jarvan, you don't have E-Q so you basically are a meatshield anyways with no kill potential. Eh. It's reasonably easy to predict when/where ganks will come once you get to a certain level. I mean, there are very specific timings for ganks. For example, the level 3 double buff gank timing is pretty easy to predict. The level 2 gank timing is also pretty easy to see coming assuming certain champs. I do agree that the prevalence of counter-ganking is probably overstated on TL though. But the lvl 3 countergank isn't even an issue with regards to the philo stone thing. Plus, you don't do that gank if you are, for instance Amumu vs. a Jarvan or Udyr jungle, unless your laner is, like, Darius.
But why buy a philo when you can buy spirit stone? Are you rushing shurelia?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4qlSn4L.png)
