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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I wonder if putting 10 MR on the item would put it back into crazy overpowered status. Probably not. All you get from completing the item as is is 20 HP and 3 HP/5 for the individual champion. It's that 600g to go Aegis->Locket that gives you everything you want. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Also Locket used to cost more than Aegis, however jungler still went Locket before Aegis. Why? - Much, much better build-up. - Aegis super early is kinda shit because most fights are still 1v1, 2v1 or 2v2 (lest you gank bot, 0K) so the aura isn't really used and it puts a bunch of gold towards resistances and regen while HP is the most useful defensive stat early on, especially against burst (which is what most junglers are exposed to during a gank as opposed to sustained damage). I mean, it's not exactly shit, but its stat distribution is a pretty bad way to spend your early gold in terms of survivability. - Locket tapers off earlier than Aegis (and Bulwark even more) (because the stats gained from leveling up are skewed toward HP, making resistances progressively stronger for your itemisation, especially MR) but the combo of HP+HP shield (+armour for the usually aa-oriented sustained damage once your survive the initial burst) is also more effective earlier, as already stated. So you want to complete it early to abuse it as much as much as possible before it starts dwindling. Basically, people were saying "Aegis better on jungler than support" because you generally wanted Aegis by the time the first major dragon fight broke out, which was too early for most 5th positions to get the gold for it. It's not like it's wasted if you get it by 5 minutes, but it's not optimal considering you don't need it that early. Locket on the other hand is extremely good, even for his carrier alone, as soon as it's completed (or even during the build-up, Kindlegem ftw). So you wanted to get Locket early on, and your team to have an Aegis before the midgame. Now you've got to build an Aegis, which you don't really care about, especially early on, super fast, and you'll get your Locket by the midgame, later than you used too. Give me a Locket that upgrades into an Aegis with the active? Damn man, I'll take it anyday. An Aegis that upgrades into the Locket? It's an aberration timing- and game flow-wise. On August 21 2013 06:16 UniversalSnip wrote: It's the worst, lol. Philo is an astoundingly bad first buy and pink spamming just costs so many wards later and gives almost no value past controlling the lane bush. Depends where you drop them. Maybe I'm not clear though with the pink thing. I rarely ever buy 2 in a single back, and when I do I already have a plan in mind about how I'm going to use them. I don't drop them for the sake of dropping them. | ||
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Haiq343
United States2548 Posts
On August 21 2013 06:22 sylverfyre wrote: I usually get the DShield if I get that first blood. It lets you be in their face a hell of a lot. Next time I pick up a double kill as lulu early, I'll give a DBlade a shot. Just curious about the early dorans/doran's start on supports convo, but unless you get a doublekill style boost of gold dumped into your lap doesn't that really crush your ward budget? Like the mentioned ali support dshield start would sound like a lane that's begging for some extra jungler attention. I wish I could justify starting dshield... Enable me! | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
1. Aegis sucks 2. Buildup to Aegis sucks 3. Aegis aura sucks - no more armor or splitpush potential 4. Aegis sucks The amount of gold/time I have to dump into building Locket is pretty awful especially as a jungler where gold and time (to farm) is scarce. Sure, Locket is pretty good, but to get there, I have to sit on effectively 2k gold worth of barely efficient/not efficient stuff that really doesn't do anything anymore. It's like if they changed Sunfire so that it gives total 5 more damage to the aura and 50 more hp, but Giant's Belt only gives 180 hp fo basically the same cost. No one would buy it except in edge cases. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Now in the new jungle I don't even build Locket at all, it's not really anything with cost-efficiency or whatever, there is just better options with the new Spectre's Cowl items. I have been trying this for a couple games and having luck with it: 0/9/21 Utility (AS/Armor/MR/MS) Machete + 5 pots Philo Stone Mobility Boots Ancient Golem Frozen Heart Banshee's Veil Whatever + Oracle when needed I feel like now single type resists items (ie: only armor or only MR) are the way to go, and with the insane amount of % max HP options out there, stacking health is no longer needed. Idk tho, this version of the jungle has been kicking my ass, the only things I am having success with is my Season 2 jungle pool/builds (Mao, Shyv, Lee, etc). I really don't like the new Locket, and feel like it's more a support item now. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
When playing a tanky initiator in the jungle pretty much every teamfight scenario will hit one or both of those points. Your role is to dive into the middle of the entire enemy team, and it may involve chasing key enemies out of the fight immediately afterward. It's extremely common for you to die when the fight is half over, or for the fight to quickly spread out. In those cases Aegis is simply bleh, because your team isn't benefiting much at all. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
New Locket is shit on her (Aegis/Bulwark was already bad) so I lose on a precious HP buffer and CDR. I'd like to build an early HP buffer but unless I get the Golem Spirit (meh, she's got much more potential with Lizard Spirit since she's early game reliant, although you've got to tank up after that) I kinda need to save up for Belt because of Kindlegem not being doable anymore, so that I can get Randuin's later. + Show Spoiler [Concise? Wth is that.] + I'm not sure there are any Ruby items she may like, aside from Zeke's (which allows the Kindlegem too, but it's not slot-efficient/selfish enough for you to rush it, making you sit on the Kindlegem, and it's not that efficient unless your team is pretty AD-oriented) and Cleaver (and I wouldn't rush Cleaver right after Lizard Spirit because it offers so little compared to Bruta, I'd rather drop the 1600 gold towards Belt+Mercs), so it's hard to just buy a Ruby and sit on it. Belt is a lot of gold early on. Also Locket gave you HP and armour, so building Mercs on top of it allowed you to have pretty balanced HP/resistances as a reasonably low cost core, but now you don't have that either anymore. Maybe I should try Spirit Stone -> Bruta -> finish Golem Spirit -> Negatron or Tabi depending on which resistance I need the most. I mean SV's so powerful even if she has no innate sustain it's probably worth it on her too, and it covers your CDR and MR very nicely. Then you've got some armour from Tabi and HP from golem spirit, so you can finish SV if you need some more MR/HP, Cleaver if you want more sustained damage/HP, or start getting randuin's if you need more armour. Re-reading myself SV allows Kindlegem. However, you'd still sit on the Kindlegem because rushing SV off of your jungle item feels weird, lest they're a double AP comp, and you'd cruelly lack armour by then, most importantly to let you abuse botlane with your ult (her kit and passive make her a good diver... if she has the armour to tank some shots). Alternatively, sit on a Ruby after Lizard Spirit, buy Mercs or Tabi, then use it to finish Spectre's Cowl? Could work pretty well if you build Tabi, too much MR if you build mercs. If you build Tabi you'd need Golem Spirit for the Tenacity, which means your only offensive stat from these 5.5k gold would be 30% CDR, which is nice on her during skirmishes, but very quickly insufficient to be a legitimate threat in ganks (need to burst people before they can escape), 1v1s and full-on teamfights. Maybe I should look at Gauntlet for an offensive item when I can afford it, building it instead of Randuin's. It's not that much more damage, but it gives you a way to stick to targets somewhat which should remain useful into the late game (when your burst isn't enough anymore and you need the ability to trigger W several times to threaten people). TL;DR: What Seuss said always applied very well to Vi (especially the dying part, which made Aegis bad on her while Locket didn't mind it at all) and not one of her best cookie-cutter itemisation path is utterly destroyed, disrupting her flow when it comes to build paths and desirable stats. Meh. Itemisation's so poor on her currently. :/ | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On August 21 2013 06:24 TheYango wrote: In retrospect I would have liked Riot nerfing Aegis simply by making it a dead-end item with an appropriate slot/cost-efficiency tradeoff again (while keeping the item decent), but god forbid, Riot considers that sinful or something. So instead of doing that, Riot gutted Aegis and made it's upgrade really efficient. riot has that weird item desing principle where cheap and basic slot inefficient items should have less stats/gold so ppl dont stack them or go for early strategic spikes with them. It is counterintuitive and doesnt feel as epic according to riot. I'am pretty sure this is a case of them underestimating the players. Also this principle keeps on biting them in the ass especially because they can't fix support and partly also jungle itemization with that principle except maybe if they do something drastic somewhere else like removing ratios on supports or making farm meaningless. the way they could fix all of this is by making all the typical support items stronger/cost and cheaper, but emphasizing non scaling benefits at the same time. For example by decreasing the active cooldown, the base health and the cost on shureilas and increasing the manaregen. Basicly make support items cheaper and more epic but lower scaling stats. Also when farmers incorporate 1 or mb 2 support items into their builds like in s2 then whats the big deal? | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 21 2013 07:01 clickrush wrote: riot has that weird item desing principle where cheap and basic slot inefficient items should have less stats/gold so ppl dont stack them or go for early strategic spikes with them. It is counterintuitive and doesnt feel as epic according to riot. I'am pretty sure this is a case of them underestimating the players. Also this principle keeps on biting them in the ass especially because they can't fix support and partly also jungle itemization with that principle except maybe if they do something drastic somewhere else like removing ratios on supports or making farm meaningless. the way they could fix all of this is by making all the typical support items stronger/cost and cheaper, but emphasizing non scaling benefits at the same time. For example by decreasing the active cooldown, the base health and the cost on shureilas and increasing the manaregen. Basicly make support items cheaper and more epic but lower scaling stats. Also when farmers incorporate 1 or mb 2 support items into their builds like in s2 then whats the big deal? The big deal was more around when literally every single champion went HoG->Philo regardless of role or item build path. That was kinda dumb in that there was no variety. Similar to how when everyone opened Dorans+2 in S1 or Boots+3 in S2. If nothing else, nerfing gp/10 items increased item variety in build paths. I agree with mostly everything else you said though. I think Riot needs to buff Doran ring and shield, personally. Doran items are already notorious for non-scaling benefits but can give you a nice early power spike. Itemization is the one area I always though Dota did well in that since more expensive items are stronger, but actually less cost-effective, supports have more meaningful item choices since they can actually afford items that don't suck. On top of that, there are a ton of reasonably priced/powered mid-game item options, whereas in LoL, every single one of those options have been nerfed so that they're so incredibly situational. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On August 21 2013 07:11 Ryuu314 wrote: The big deal was more around when literally every single champion went HoG->Philo regardless of role or item build path. That was kinda dumb in that there was no variety. Similar to how when everyone opened Dorans+2 in S1 or Boots+3 in S2. If nothing else, nerfing gp/10 items increased item variety in build paths. I agree with mostly everything else you said though. I think Riot needs to buff Doran ring and shield, personally. Doran items are already notorious for non-scaling benefits but can give you a nice early power spike. Itemization is the one area I always though Dota did well in that since more expensive items are stronger, but actually less cost-effective, supports have more meaningful item choices since they can actually afford items that don't suck. On top of that, there are a ton of reasonably priced/powered mid-game item options, whereas in LoL, every single one of those options have been nerfed so that they're so incredibly situational. I don't think DRing and DShield are in that bad of a spot... | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's really good in its niche, but I'm scared when I run it in top lane of the enemy champions lane swapping and then me only having 1 potion and an item that's only good against autoattack harass. | ||
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XenOmega
Canada2822 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On August 21 2013 07:16 onlywonderboy wrote: I don't think DRing and DShield are in that bad of a spot... Think he wants them to be cheap enough to be considered by supports more easily (compare to Ruby Crystal and its build paths for a support, as mentioned earlier), rather than only laners. Can't start dshield atm because lack of wards. Dring doesn't give enough mp5 because Riot's way to make it not scale well (which was a smart one imo, mind you) was to force you to last hit to make it effective. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 21 2013 07:16 onlywonderboy wrote: I don't think DRing and DShield are in that bad of a spot... I think DRing is in an okay spot. I personally miss the 475 gold DRing though. The stats were better, but now the lower cost is nice in that it impacts your overall build path less. DShield is decent right now, but I think it's really awkward in that you will honestly never really buy it unless you're ahead on a reasonably tanky champion. In top lane, it's simply too risky to walk into lane with only 1 potion with no offensive, all-in stats (like red elixer/pot/ward start). Then if you get ahead, you generally want to snowball your lane, which means getting offensive stats and/or starting your real items. As a result, you really only buy DShield in very niche situations. In my hundreds of S3 games, I’ve honestly only seen DShield bought with success, where I could reasonably say no or very few other items would’ve been better, in like >10~15 games. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
His base dmg is just really high. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 21 2013 07:26 LaNague wrote: zac probably will get nerfed, yes. His base dmg is just really high. I think he said Zed. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
ups :D:D | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Both still need to be tuned. Zac really benefited from Bulwark going away because the people he can easily dive now never have MR until lategame. | ||
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