EPTOn August 09 2013 01:09 Seuss wrote:
My math didn't use one item comparisons, it simply worked under the assumption that regardless of build the Banner of Command setup would be 80 AP behind. That wasn't exactly precise, but it was reasonable and slightly generous for Banner of Command. As we can see from your setups, throwing in Deathcap actually makes things worse, increasing the gap to 135 AP.
I have three concerns with your argument:
In detail:
+ Show Spoiler [Liandry's] +
+ Show Spoiler [CDR] +
+ Show Spoiler [Damages] +
So my take on it hasn't changed. Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, but not much else.
My math didn't use one item comparisons, it simply worked under the assumption that regardless of build the Banner of Command setup would be 80 AP behind. That wasn't exactly precise, but it was reasonable and slightly generous for Banner of Command. As we can see from your setups, throwing in Deathcap actually makes things worse, increasing the gap to 135 AP.
I have three concerns with your argument:
- I think you're overestimating Liandry's impact, not that it's entirely relevant.
- I think you're overvaluing CDR, and failing to consider that other CDR items might do far more than Banner in either case.
- Despite the aforementioned concerns the non-Banner build is still 5-10% damage ahead, and plant damage is essentially identical.
In detail:
+ Show Spoiler [Liandry's] +
I tend to avoid making assumptions and generalizations about Liandry's because it's such a pain in the butt to math out. I'm not going to do that now, but I'm going to point out issues you didn't bring up.
In short, assuming that Liandry's average damage is going to be in the 100-200 range every time you cast a spell is rather ridiculous unless you're intentionally spacing your abilities out at 3 second intervals and your opponents all have more than 4000 health at all times.
But that's mostly irrelevant. The Liandry's damage between the two builds is roughly analogous in any case. Factoring in Liandry's damage to the total is useful for context, but can also obscure important points (SEE: Spoiler:Damages).
- Overlapping spells/plant attacks result in only one Liandry's proc.
- Unless someone else is slowing for you, Rylai's only covers the first half of a Liandry's proc. Moreover, building Rylai's in place of Zhonya's is extremely weird.
- Liandry's ticks every half-second. Unless your opponents are healing damage faster than you dish it out, each tick is thus going to do less damage.
- At the ends of fights, when people are low, Liandry's damage is dramatically diminished.
In short, assuming that Liandry's average damage is going to be in the 100-200 range every time you cast a spell is rather ridiculous unless you're intentionally spacing your abilities out at 3 second intervals and your opponents all have more than 4000 health at all times.
But that's mostly irrelevant. The Liandry's damage between the two builds is roughly analogous in any case. Factoring in Liandry's damage to the total is useful for context, but can also obscure important points (SEE: Spoiler:Damages).
+ Show Spoiler [CDR] +
Any time Zyra has Blue Buff the CDR from Banner of Command is a moot point. Similarly, if Zyra has any CDR from Runes/Masteries and buys a blue elixir some or all of Banner of Command's CDR will be eaten into. Finally, battle conditions do not always permit abilities to be used precisely on cooldown, and in Zyra's case in particular she's not like to hit multiple targets with her abilities beyond her initial combo.
So in order to be assured that Banner's CDR is useful, you have to make a bunch of assumptions (e.g. no Blue buff, no CDR from runes/masteries, perfect ability timing etc.) which make other CDR items look very appealing. Morellonomicon, for example, gives twice as much CDR and AP for roughly the same price, and has extremely valuable utility as well.
Essentially, CDR isn't necessarily going to be useful, and when it is there are better items.
So in order to be assured that Banner's CDR is useful, you have to make a bunch of assumptions (e.g. no Blue buff, no CDR from runes/masteries, perfect ability timing etc.) which make other CDR items look very appealing. Morellonomicon, for example, gives twice as much CDR and AP for roughly the same price, and has extremely valuable utility as well.
Essentially, CDR isn't necessarily going to be useful, and when it is there are better items.
+ Show Spoiler [Damages] +
5-10% extra damage doesn't sound like all that much, but when you're looking at 5-6 item builds that seemingly low % figure can be deceiving.
For example, the additional 135 AP in the Deathcap build translates to approximately 250 extra damage on Zyra's initial combo to all targets caught in the AoE. Each Q or E cast thereafter deals 70-80 additional damage, which the CDR from Banner of command won't ever fully catch up to (and won't even be close until the fight is practically over). Banner of Command won't be getting any significant help from the 3 extra damage its plants do either.
The damage difference is big, even if the %s seem small, and unless your team has damage in excess (and even then) the active on Banner isn't going to be worth the difference.
For example, the additional 135 AP in the Deathcap build translates to approximately 250 extra damage on Zyra's initial combo to all targets caught in the AoE. Each Q or E cast thereafter deals 70-80 additional damage, which the CDR from Banner of command won't ever fully catch up to (and won't even be close until the fight is practically over). Banner of Command won't be getting any significant help from the 3 extra damage its plants do either.
The damage difference is big, even if the %s seem small, and unless your team has damage in excess (and even then) the active on Banner isn't going to be worth the difference.
So my take on it hasn't changed. Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, but not much else.
Actually discussing LoL is nice.
I don't think either of the builds I mentioned are sacrificing Zhonya for Rylai. I think your 5th item in either build is likely to be either Zhonya or Seraphs. I haven't played much Zyra and I'm not really sure how much mana regen she has to have. Can she make do with early Dorans and then selling them later?
The determining factors in the damage comparisons are really going to be A - how many people does your spell combo hit. B - how many attacks are your plants getting off, and C - how long is the fight.
In a short fight where your spells hit their whole team, Deathcap is obviously going to be superior, but in longer engagements or in battles where your plants don't get bursted down quickly, the CDR and extra minion damage from banner of command will close the gap to a degree.
I don't think an assumption of 100 added damage from Liandry's is a bad guesstimation. Late game every target is going to have over 2k health, meaning a single fully ticking Liandry proc will be doing minimum 200 damage, and even though the procs don't stack, they do overlap as Zyra keeps hitting them. I think a rough guess of 100 damage from Liandry's on a squishy target, or 200 on a 3k+ health tanky target is fair. If they're getting bursted down so fast that Liandry's doesn't get to do any damage then how much damage Liandry's is doing is irrelevant, they're already dead.
I also don't think assuming Zyra will be getting blue buff is a good idea. Late game with 10% CDR from 1 item and a blue elixir she can easily give blue buff to another person on the team. She doesn't want a 20% CDR item because that's inefficient with the built in CDR from her kit, and there are very limited AP options that only give 10% CDR. DFG vs. Banner of Command might be a more fair comparison than Deathcap vs. Banner of Command, but I just don't see Zyra as the kind of mage who wants a DFG.
There are a lot of factors here that are hard to discuss and theorycraft, but I think there's enough in favor of Banner of Command from a numbers perspective that it's worth giving it a passive glance and seeing how it feels in a game rather than just dismissing it as a gimmick.
One of my big issues with mid Zyra personally is I feel like good builds for her have a lot of armor and no MR. Like assuming you went Banner of Command you'd end up with a build like Rylai, Liandry, Void, BoC, Zhonya. This feels like a strong build to me against an AD Assassin focused comp, but not so great against double AP which is what's in vogue right now.
