|
|
On August 09 2013 00:27 Kontossis wrote:
I was theory crafting a bit, and it seems like it would be a interesting idea to go both BotRK + Gunblade + Visage on someone like Jax. Spirit Visage would boost both life steal + Spell Vamp by 20% each, you would have 2 item nukes/slows to help burst targets/slow them down. There aren't many champions in the game who can actually use both of these effectively (I could only think of Jax, Poppy, Teemo, and maybe Kayle) and Visage has been buffed insanely hard.
It's not like Jax will ever get 6 items, but I think BotRK + Gunblade + Zephyr + Triforce + Visage + Randuin would be the ideal build with absurd stats like 3500+ health, 2.3-2.4 attack speed when the passive is charged up, 270 armor/200 MR when ult is active, 32% life steal and 24% spell vamp
Thing is, when you think like that you discard the very important "How do I get to this point?" question. Gunblade, for example, as the sustain option is a bit redundant with BotRK (since for Jax the damage/burst option is Triforce), with the latter being way better (including for the "sticking to" part).
So with Jax it's already usually:
- easy, trade oriented lane? -> Triforce
- bullied/camped/hard lane, or more suited to all-ins? -> BotRK
- Am I fed enough/splitpushing/the laning phase lasts long enough? -> build the other one, otherwise build toward either Randuin's or SV depending on major threat's damage type.
- build the other defensive item or a GA.
- complete the build if the game goes that long.
|
Banner of Command strat: Yorick top, Elise jungle, Heimer mid, Zyra support and pick your favorite marksmen.
I think I also read somewhere that Tibbers also gets the 15% damage buff but only on his auto attacks and NOT his sunfire damage.
edit: this sounds like an OP push strat. I can only imagine seiges with plants, turrets, caitlin traps. Add to that gouls and spiders running like suicide bombers past the towers. To bad riot says no no to tower pushing before 4-8 mins.
|
On August 09 2013 00:50 Ghost-z wrote:
Banner of Command strat: Yorick top, Elise jungle, Heimer mid, Zyra support and pick your favorite marksmen.
I think I also read somewhere that Tibbers also gets the 15% damage buff but only on his auto attacks and NOT his sunfire damage.
edit: this sounds like an OP push strat. I can only imagine seiges with plants, turrets, caitlin traps. Add to that gouls and spiders running like suicide bombers past the towers. To bad riot says no no to tower pushing before 4-8 mins.
marksman - ad malz
|
or sivir if you're buffing miinions?
|
this is some off-topic meta bullshit to circumvent neo's ruling.
|
On August 08 2013 22:51 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 16:00 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2013 13:38 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how much damage Banner of Command is actually adding, it'd be interesting to see some math on the subject. Here's the math: Zyra's plants do 15% more damage. The math was hard. ^.^ On August 08 2013 14:20 SagaZ wrote:
About burning Zyra, the rylai liandry is standart on her I think, elder lizard as said looks forced to fit the theme, it's the banner of command i'm interested in. How impactfull if the minion passive? does it affect other summons (elise spiderlings?)? any maths lying around about the dps increase of it vs a "normal" ap item. Also are you even going to be in passive range of your plants so is it possible gameplay wise? This math is more complicated. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume that we have two Zyra players, one with Banner of Command and one who spent that gold on pure AP (NLR + Blasting Wand), but are otherwise identical. Thus, the Banner of Command build is always 80 AP behind. We can't simply look at plant damage as Zyra has other abilities to consider. If there were only plants involved at Banner of Command would surpass the pure AP route the moment Zyra was level 12 or higher. Because we're looking at a larger picture, our equation for determining the point of equivalent damage is this: 80 AP * (Zyra's Abilty Ratios + Zyra's Plant Ratio * # of Plant Attacks = ((Total BoC Build AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 * Level) * # of Plant Attacks Because we're assuming the BoC build is always 80 AP behind, the Total AP for the Pure AP Build gets reduced to the 80 AP on the left side of the equation. Assuming level 18, the equation resolves likeso: 80 * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 *18) * # of Plant Attacks 80 * (1.8 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 + 16 * # of Plant Attacks = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks - 16 * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 4.1) * # of Plant Attacks For one plant attack to do equivalent damage, you need 4663 AP. That's fairly unreasonable. Each additional plant attack on a unique target will reduce that figure. At two attacks you need 2263 AP, at four 1063 AP, and at 8 a reasonable 463 AP. Conversely, increasing the number of targets caught in Zyra's AoE increases the AP needed, as does considering additional casts of her abilities. The end result is that Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, and as a part of the Burning Bush Zyra build results in a deceptively tanky Zyra, but it isn't particularly spectacular offensively. I'm not sure that I completely buy this, Monte. You're looking at math based on 1 item compositions, when Banner of Command adds damage as a percentage, meaning that it's going to be more cost efficient the later in your build you get it. Lets look at two Zyra builds. First build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Deathcap (465 AP with a normal rune/mastery build) Second build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Banner of Command, Blasting Wand (330 AP with a normal rune/mastery build, Blasting Wand is to make the gold cost similar) And how much damage an attack would do with either build at level 18. I'm not factoring in mpen because the mpen should be the same for both builds. Q: 524 dcap, 441 boc +12% HP damage W plants: 231 dcap, 234 boc +12% HP damage E: 440 dcap, 372 boc +12% HP damage R: 689 dcap, 592 boc +12% HP damage So, a deathcap build is doing more damage overall, I think this is fairly obvious. But here are some interesting points about that. #1 - The Liandry damage late in the game is almost always going to be over 100 damage, and against tanky champs may well be closer to 200 damage. When you add an extra 100 to all those numbers, the difference between the two shrinks. 524 vs 441 is a 20% difference, but 624 vs 541 is only a 15% difference. #2 - The Banner of Command also gives 10% CDR, and Zyra has pretty low cooldowns and built in CDR already. If you think of 10% CDR meaning 10% more damage throughout the fight on Q and E (you're only going to get to cast R once obviously) the difference gets smaller still. Now we're assuming 624 damage on a dcap Q, and 595 adjusted damage on a boc Q. CDR notably scales with Liandry's damage while AP does not. Plus all the added slows and roots etc. #3 - Banner of Command gives the active (IMO it's a really incredibly good active IF you can find an excuse to buy the item on its stats alone) and 30 armor, as well as HP regen and increased minion damage. So all in all, I think the dcap build probably does more damage, but it doesn't look like it's a huge amount more to me, we're talking like 5-10% more max, largely depending on how much HP the enemy team has. But banner of command is adding split pushing capability and utility. To me it doesn't look like one is strictly better, but based on team compositions and the game, both look like reasonable options. If your team also has an Elise or a Yorick, or you need additional split pushing to deal with their comp, or if they're a super heavy AD comp and armor is nice, BoC looks very reasonable to me. Edit: If your team has Elise or Yorick and you're support Zyra I'd also look at it as a reasonable choice for your 1 non wards item you're maybe getting, for the active and since you're probably not getting Locket.
My math didn't use one item comparisons, it simply worked under the assumption that regardless of build the Banner of Command setup would be 80 AP behind. That wasn't exactly precise, but it was reasonable and slightly generous for Banner of Command. As we can see from your setups, throwing in Deathcap actually makes things worse, increasing the gap to 135 AP.
I have three concerns with your argument:
- I think you're overestimating Liandry's impact, not that it's entirely relevant.
- I think you're overvaluing CDR, and failing to consider that other CDR items might do far more than Banner in either case.
- Despite the aforementioned concerns the non-Banner build is still 5-10% damage ahead, and plant damage is essentially identical.
In detail:
+ Show Spoiler [Liandry's] +I tend to avoid making assumptions and generalizations about Liandry's because it's such a pain in the butt to math out. I'm not going to do that now, but I'm going to point out issues you didn't bring up. - Overlapping spells/plant attacks result in only one Liandry's proc.
- Unless someone else is slowing for you, Rylai's only covers the first half of a Liandry's proc. Moreover, building Rylai's in place of Zhonya's is extremely weird.
- Liandry's ticks every half-second. Unless your opponents are healing damage faster than you dish it out, each tick is thus going to do less damage.
- At the ends of fights, when people are low, Liandry's damage is dramatically diminished.
In short, assuming that Liandry's average damage is going to be in the 100-200 range every time you cast a spell is rather ridiculous unless you're intentionally spacing your abilities out at 3 second intervals and your opponents all have more than 4000 health at all times. But that's mostly irrelevant. The Liandry's damage between the two builds is roughly analogous in any case. Factoring in Liandry's damage to the total is useful for context, but can also obscure important points (SEE: Spoiler:Damages).
+ Show Spoiler [CDR] +Any time Zyra has Blue Buff the CDR from Banner of Command is a moot point. Similarly, if Zyra has any CDR from Runes/Masteries and buys a blue elixir some or all of Banner of Command's CDR will be eaten into. Finally, battle conditions do not always permit abilities to be used precisely on cooldown, and in Zyra's case in particular she's not like to hit multiple targets with her abilities beyond her initial combo.
So in order to be assured that Banner's CDR is useful, you have to make a bunch of assumptions (e.g. no Blue buff, no CDR from runes/masteries, perfect ability timing etc.) which make other CDR items look very appealing. Morellonomicon, for example, gives twice as much CDR and AP for roughly the same price, and has extremely valuable utility as well.
Essentially, CDR isn't necessarily going to be useful, and when it is there are better items.
+ Show Spoiler [Damages] +5-10% extra damage doesn't sound like all that much, but when you're looking at 5-6 item builds that seemingly low % figure can be deceiving.
For example, the additional 135 AP in the Deathcap build translates to approximately 250 extra damage on Zyra's initial combo to all targets caught in the AoE. Each Q or E cast thereafter deals 70-80 additional damage, which the CDR from Banner of command won't ever fully catch up to (and won't even be close until the fight is practically over). Banner of Command won't be getting any significant help from the 3 extra damage its plants do either.
The damage difference is big, even if the %s seem small, and unless your team has damage in excess (and even then) the active on Banner isn't going to be worth the difference.
So my take on it hasn't changed. Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, but not much else.
|
I know I was one of the worst instigators sometimes, but it is nice to wake up to 5 pages of actual League discussion :D
I like how Riven, Renekton, Lulu, Naut, and Ori were brought up as champions that had good designs/well balanced/whatever. Xypherous really knows how to put together a kit, I would love to shake that dude's hand and pick his brain in game design for like 3 hours.
On August 08 2013 18:48 ihasaKAROT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 18:19 Capped wrote:
Exciting, Ability spamming jump round map doing cool shit > Mana management, outsmarting and positioning your opponent.
As sad as it might seem, thats literally all it comes down to
Also, top lane next champ. Riven or Renekton? :O Others? Teemo ofc
On August 08 2013 19:40 Duvon wrote:
After reading about Req's Teemo exploits, I picked him up on my low level EUW account... Blind is sooo nice, really good vs all the snowball autoattackers.
This pleases me :3
|
trying redpot+3 wu top, going ham at lvl 2, will report back.
Went badly. FU.
|
United States37500 Posts
Wu Mid, not Top.
Win game.
|
On August 09 2013 00:33 TheYango wrote:
Shikyo the problem is that Riot would never make a kit so lopsided.
For one, a champ THAT good at solo killing would be considered by Riot to be un-fun. So they cut back the solo-killing aspects and add on to the teamfight power, which results in these kits that end up being able to do everything.
I'd imagine a kit like Fizz is the closest to a lopsided Assassin kit that they would do. While he has some waveclear it all ties into his mobility and has no way to farm at range.
Zed/Kha are just the product of the terrible design everythingcreep that has happened.
|
kha was truly nutty, but i think zed was a cool idea whose biggest balance issues that can't be addressed with simple number tweaking derive from the generally problematic bork
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Is it just me or is there no such thing as a mediocre Fizz? That is to say, every game I've played with Fizz either has him going 18/1/10 and roflstomping, or 0/14/2 and completely useless.
|
On August 09 2013 00:50 Ghost-z wrote:
Banner of Command strat: Yorick top, Elise jungle, Heimer mid, Zyra support and pick your favorite marksmen.
I think I also read somewhere that Tibbers also gets the 15% damage buff but only on his auto attacks and NOT his sunfire damage.
edit: this sounds like an OP push strat. I can only imagine seiges with plants, turrets, caitlin traps. Add to that gouls and spiders running like suicide bombers past the towers. To bad riot says no no to tower pushing before 4-8 mins.
Oh god. Are people actually going to start calling adc marksmen?
|
Eh, as creative as Xypherous is, I really have issues with some of his reasoning patterns, most notably regarding items, the existence of shields, and some others.
Plus it's not like Riven is riddled with issues herself, he admitted to it himself. The "versatile kit, multiple cast Q, fun and dynamic playstyle" part stands, but then you have how absurdly fast she snowballs (one my pet peeves on the subject with Rumble), the AD ratio on her passive and shield, etc.
As for assassins, compare what they were before (Pantheon, Akali, Talon) to what Riot tried afterwards (Zed, Kha'Zix, Rengar, Elise). They're either way too lopsided (release Rengar, both AD and AP), or they aren't assassins as much as something else which happens to have enough burst to 100-0 somebody (poke machine Kha'Zix, splitpusher/bruiser Zed).
Hell, even Jayce has bullshit 100-0 burst potential in his kit and he was never intended to be an assassin.
In a way I prefered when teams were tankier like in s2, because it'd force longer fights, which in turns makes it less problematic that your assassin needs 4s (Talon) rather than 1.5s (Zed, Kha'Zix) to kill his target. Plus it made positioning, kiting, reengaging, etc. more interesting, I thought.
(Not that the Kennen flash ult on 5 people as soon as they flank his team by... Flame I believe? wasn't badass as hell, holy crap.)
|
On August 09 2013 00:19 Shikyo wrote:
I think that assassins would be totally fine if they just were assassins, but most LoL assassins have so many other things that they can do.
An example of a good assassin imo: First of all, needs ult to properly kill but it has a pretty low cooldown, second, no waveclear, third, no sustain, fourth, loses in sustained damage to melee carries and cannot beat bruisers unless they are damaged first.
An example ult: Blink stun that increases your damage against the target. Then it could have an autoattack reset, perhaps a skill that makes the target bleed/gives you vision and a skill that gives you a steroid against bleeding targets. Maybe bonus damage when attacking from behind, or alternatively a skill that deals damage when the target moves but if they are stationary doesn't deal any dmg / deals less dmg.
Something like that would imo be fine as an assassin. One that can kill a target if they are alone but one that can be focused and CC'd down if they aren't alone(Zed for example has way too much AoE). A skill that is AoE but only deals significant damage vs bleeding targets would be all right as well, I guess.
This could work, but like lots of people have pointed out that Riot would never make such a kit.
The same arguments come up every time either melle carries or assassins come up. Riot is unwilling to make champions with weak enough earlygames to make the ability to 1 shot, or to tank+do sustained damage not totally OP.
On August 09 2013 00:29 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 00:19 Shikyo wrote:
I think that assassins would be totally fine if they just were assassins, but most LoL assassins have so many other things that they can do.
An example of a good assassin imo: First of all, needs ult to properly kill but it has a pretty low cooldown, second, no waveclear, third, no sustain, fourth, loses in sustained damage to melee carries and cannot beat bruisers unless they are damaged first.
An example ult: Blink stun that increases your damage against the target. Then it could have an autoattack reset, perhaps a skill that makes the target bleed/gives you vision and a skill that gives you a steroid against bleeding targets. Maybe bonus damage when attacking from behind, or alternatively a skill that deals damage when the target moves but if they are stationary doesn't deal any dmg / deals less dmg.
Something like that would imo be fine as an assassin. One that can kill a target if they are alone but one that can be focused and CC'd down if they aren't alone(Zed for example has way too much AoE). A skill that is AoE but only deals significant damage vs bleeding targets would be all right as well, I guess. For assassins to be balanced they have to be able to do more than kill one target when they get fed. Otherwise why would anyone play them?
Because they get to CHOOSE which target to kill, and the ability to do that is ridiculously good in this game.
|
On August 09 2013 01:32 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is it just me or is there no such thing as a mediocre Fizz? That is to say, every game I've played with Fizz either has him going 18/1/10 and roflstomping, or 0/14/2 and completely useless.
The shaco law is fact for every champ like that.Fizz is really fucking annoying though.Really hope people don't start playing him more.
|
On August 09 2013 01:32 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is it just me or is there no such thing as a mediocre Fizz? That is to say, every game I've played with Fizz either has him going 18/1/10 and roflstomping, or 0/14/2 and completely useless.
That's how most assassins play out.
|
United States23745 Posts
On August 09 2013 01:32 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 00:50 Ghost-z wrote:
Banner of Command strat: Yorick top, Elise jungle, Heimer mid, Zyra support and pick your favorite marksmen.
I think I also read somewhere that Tibbers also gets the 15% damage buff but only on his auto attacks and NOT his sunfire damage.
edit: this sounds like an OP push strat. I can only imagine seiges with plants, turrets, caitlin traps. Add to that gouls and spiders running like suicide bombers past the towers. To bad riot says no no to tower pushing before 4-8 mins. Oh god. Are people actually going to start calling adc marksmen?
I guess Marksman isn't any more arbitrary than ADC but it just feels weird. Maybe because ADC has been used for so long. I avoid it in the write ups
|
|
|
On August 09 2013 01:08 Capped wrote:
this is some off-topic meta bullshit to circumvent neo's ruling.
I mean, really, banner of command team comp?
Even things like "Support can get banner of command"?
Sightstone, Oracle's and wards take up almost all your money, and you're lucky if you can get Shurelya's at 25 minutes unless you play really greedy with GP10s and go first item sightstone while skimping wards on your first back. And Shurelya's has way more benefit than BoC. I'd rather build Ohmwrecker than BoC.
On August 09 2013 01:43 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 01:32 Papulatus wrote:On August 09 2013 00:50 Ghost-z wrote:
Banner of Command strat: Yorick top, Elise jungle, Heimer mid, Zyra support and pick your favorite marksmen.
I think I also read somewhere that Tibbers also gets the 15% damage buff but only on his auto attacks and NOT his sunfire damage.
edit: this sounds like an OP push strat. I can only imagine seiges with plants, turrets, caitlin traps. Add to that gouls and spiders running like suicide bombers past the towers. To bad riot says no no to tower pushing before 4-8 mins. Oh god. Are people actually going to start calling adc marksmen? I guess Marksman isn't any more arbitrary than ADC but it just feels weird. Maybe because ADC has been used for so long. I avoid it in the write ups
Marksman is Riot's designation for their class, like Mage or Pusher.
AD carry is still the "meta" designation, just like Top/Mid/Support/Jungler.
Just people being facetious. *shrug*
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
