EPT[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 170
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 08 2013 20:27 -Zoda- wrote: I discovered a new nidalee trick watching Bischu : you can launch an auto spear, while it's mid-air change in cougar form, use Q and it will proc at distance. O_O Is this a very advanced trick or common knowledge of AD nidalee players ? It's not super advanced, anyone who's mained nid for a bit should be aware of it. Like all next-autoattack skills, it applies to the next autoattack that lands, regardless of whether its in the air. Phreak even made a super big deal about it (Triforce buffing an attack which is already in mid air) in the Corki spotlight a long while back. Nid does the same thing with sheen items a lot (AutoQ in ranged form to buff the auto in the air) as well as this takedown trick. What's really fun is Javelin-> AA -> RQturnaroundW I need to play me some more bruiser nid, damn. Flame made it look cool all over again. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Lounge
537 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On August 08 2013 21:31 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Nobody mentioned Nocturne yet who is in my opinion one of the strongest solo queue junglers and still sees competitive play Yeah ult makes bushes even more op. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Sejuani's probably stronger than Nautilus atm, which I find pretty ironic considering people complained when Naut came out that he was basically a "better Sejuani" and thus eclipsed her. Her passive rework makes her super strong early on against other physical junglers (and most top laners too) because 10 armour is like 3 levels worth at this point, she doesn't have his passive but her slow is stronger (and much more range, it's so frustrating to chase someone and see each wave stop barely short of your target because Naut has to stop to cast it) and most importantly her initiation is much more reliable than his and her damage scales way better (destroying the shield, which is pretty easy through a marksman crit + the incidental AoE in less than 2s, basically reduces his damage output to 0; and after the nerfs the late game damage of his shield is really negligible, I know I'm kinda beating a dead horse but 25% less damage at max level is huge, esp. on your main damage ability and the one you max first). Zac's of course broken thanks to the 1550 range + multiple AoE cc on his jump->ult combo, but he's sometimes banned. On August 08 2013 12:40 Hyren wrote: Soo, after being on this patch for a while, are you guys building then new Locket out of the jungle? I've been leaning on Wardens and Spectral Cowl as my midgame items and then looking to finish into Randuins and Visage as needed. Nope. I would rush Locket almost everytime because the shield is so nice for dives and counterganks (clutch saves on teammates and stuff) but the shit build path of Aegis + the 650 gold cost increase (35% cost increase yo) make it so much more awkward to get. You've got to give almost 1800 more gold than previously if you want the CDR, and 650 more gold than previously after sitting on slot-inefficient shit for the shield. When those were the main selling points of Locket for me, it really annoys me a bunch to have to deal with the watered-down Aegis for it. I understand the need to "reduce forced buys", but damn, make Locket more niche instead of gutting it. 650 gold may not seem much, but it's a pretty huge window during the early game where you don't benefit from that shield for your fights (drake, bottom ganks, etc.), plus less CDR on ult-reliant champs. Granted, I mainly jungle Vi, she wasn't a good Bulwark carrier before, and she isn't any better now, while Locket is excellent on her (because it's excellent on everyone, true). I guess I could do with rushing it on Zac or Nocturne, or maybe even Nautilus (who damn needs his CDR for his shield, even more so as the game progresses since the nerfs), but then Zac would love SV so much... How's rushing Spectre's Cowl in lane? I avoid stuff like Elise as much as I can so I haven't really had the occasion to see how it performs as an early item. Is it the kind of "I build it first for mitigation in a hard lane then I go back to my core" item, or more of a "I finish my core offensive item first then I build this"? Regarding Ryze, he's simply reliable. All point'n'click kit with low cooldowns and high damage? Rune Prison is a fearsome spell for a lot of mobility champions, Ryze is naturally tanky which makes him safer than, say, Cassiopeia when it comes to dps mages, he's not as positioning reliant as Karthus (as in if Karthus fucks up he'll get blown up and be useless, if Ryze fucks up he won't be in range of his target but that'll only delay his impact). And thinking you don't do enough damage as Zyra is...  Her damage is huge, but she's a control mage. Her, Lissandra, Orianna shouldn't be able to 100-0 people unless grossly fed, that's the job of burst mages like Veigar, Annie, Viktor, Brand, etc.Who tend to be less popular and weaker currently simply because they can't kill people reliably anymore, even during their midgame peak. Fighters get tanky enough to survive sooner, partly due to s3's health itemisation, and teams/people get better at dealing with them, esp. those who lack mobility (dundundun, creep at work). Plus then you've got shit like Kennen who is a lane bully, a strong duelist, a super teamfighter, and able to dish out the pain by kiting even without his ultimate if you try to bait him. I'm pretty sure no pro would ever pick any of these I mentioned over Kennen, no matter the composition in mind. | ||
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JonGalt
Pootie too good!4331 Posts
What about Swain? Why was he popular back in the day (end of season 1/beginning of season 2??) and yet he has received nothing but buffs and still no one plays him. Just another case of being outclassed? His 1v2 does not even seem like it would be terrible, but I don't play him (save for one time when I was hammered) so I am unsure. Enlighten me? Edit: Liandry's isn't as good (on him) as I think it would be is it? It refreshes, not stacks right? He can't really stack a tear quickly until he hits 6 which is unfortunate. | ||
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
On August 08 2013 16:14 Letmelose wrote: http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Taiwan_Regional_Finals The Taiwanese region gets one slot directly into the round of eight for the Season 3 World Championship (guaranteed by their seeding in the All Stars Championship), while the remainder of SEA gets a separate qualification round. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Southeast_Asia_Regional_Finals I have always argued against Riot's policies involving Taiwanese teams. They are far stronger than the remainder of SEA, and have showed great results in major international tournaments (Season 2 World Championship, IPL5), but are often ignored. Riot even sabotaged the Taiwanese hopes of gaining an additional spot by forcing them to include two non-Taiwanese players in the All Stars Championship (player capabilities aside, they had by far the most language issues as far as I know, the Singaporean players didn't even know the names of the items in Chinese). I know Riot wants to get as much regional representation as possible, but the way they allocate the spots are in no shape or form a fair representation of the competitive capabilities of the regions involved. Further more, the only chance for Taiwanese region to gain more spots is plagued by the fact that Riot doesn't even allow them to represent themselves fairly, despite the fact that during the actual qualifiers, the rest of SEA are protected by the fact that no Taiwanese teams can participate in their qualfiers for the Season 3 World Championship. It's like forcing the North American all stars team to include Latin American players for the sake of regional representation despite the fact that Latin American teams have a separate route of qualification. I have always argued against it. Not a lot of people seem to care for it, really. I think you will find out that not caring is the general state of human affairs. That being said, because of the opportunity loss, the TW boat has sailed, and its not coming back. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:25 JonGalt wrote: You know my blackberry straight up breaks when I try to quote an Alaric post? At the very least it freezes for a few minutes. What about Swain? Why was he popular back in the day (end of season 1/beginning of season 2??) and yet he has received nothing but buffs and still no one plays him. Just another case of being outclassed? His 1v2 does not even seem like it would be terrible, but I don't play him (save for one time when I was hammered) so I am unsure. Enlighten me? 2 words: Mobility Creep. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 08 2013 17:03 JazzVortical wrote: Aren't Assassins binary by nature though? In LoL they seem to be, which is why I think they need to be reworked into sustained damage characters or control characters. Either as a Jax/Irelia/Darius type, or basically make them into Rogues from WOW, with CC attached to every ability. I died a little inside when you all started indicating that Renekton and other manaless champs were well designed. They are basically the reason toplane is a shithole right now. Jarvan IV would have been a much better offering. I'd say he is probably the coolest, balanced, non-toxic, melle champ in the game right now. | ||
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Lysteria
France2280 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:25 JonGalt wrote: What about Swain? Can't say for sure but back in s1, everyone was almost unkillable, granted you took the tank route. With his ultimate, and a decent build, he was a pain in the ass to kill. But since then, it's so easy to blew up anyone, thanks to the pen modifications. With the new enhanced Spirit Visage and a less awkward to build Zhonya, I can see him having a little bit more of actions than end of s2 tho. Still, he doesn't bring a high burst to the team, nor a tons of utility like an Orianna. Tomorrow will not be the day of his comeback in the pro scene. On August 08 2013 22:33 cLutZ wrote: Jarvan IV would have been a much better offering. I'd say he is probably the coolest, balanced, non-toxic, melle champ in the game right now. 100% with you, J4 is the man you have to balance the game around, he's so badass. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On August 08 2013 16:00 Seuss wrote: Here's the math: Zyra's plants do 15% more damage. The math was hard. ^.^ This math is more complicated. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume that we have two Zyra players, one with Banner of Command and one who spent that gold on pure AP (NLR + Blasting Wand), but are otherwise identical. Thus, the Banner of Command build is always 80 AP behind. We can't simply look at plant damage as Zyra has other abilities to consider. If there were only plants involved at Banner of Command would surpass the pure AP route the moment Zyra was level 12 or higher. Because we're looking at a larger picture, our equation for determining the point of equivalent damage is this: 80 AP * (Zyra's Abilty Ratios + Zyra's Plant Ratio * # of Plant Attacks = ((Total BoC Build AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 * Level) * # of Plant Attacks Because we're assuming the BoC build is always 80 AP behind, the Total AP for the Pure AP Build gets reduced to the 80 AP on the left side of the equation. Assuming level 18, the equation resolves likeso: 80 * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 *18) * # of Plant Attacks 80 * (1.8 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 + 16 * # of Plant Attacks = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks - 16 * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 4.1) * # of Plant Attacks For one plant attack to do equivalent damage, you need 4663 AP. That's fairly unreasonable. Each additional plant attack on a unique target will reduce that figure. At two attacks you need 2263 AP, at four 1063 AP, and at 8 a reasonable 463 AP. Conversely, increasing the number of targets caught in Zyra's AoE increases the AP needed, as does considering additional casts of her abilities. The end result is that Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, and as a part of the Burning Bush Zyra build results in a deceptively tanky Zyra, but it isn't particularly spectacular offensively. I'm not sure that I completely buy this, Monte. You're looking at math based on 1 item compositions, when Banner of Command adds damage as a percentage, meaning that it's going to be more cost efficient the later in your build you get it. Lets look at two Zyra builds. First build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Deathcap (465 AP with a normal rune/mastery build) Second build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Banner of Command, Blasting Wand (330 AP with a normal rune/mastery build, Blasting Wand is to make the gold cost similar) And how much damage an attack would do with either build at level 18. I'm not factoring in mpen because the mpen should be the same for both builds. Q: 524 dcap, 441 boc +12% HP damage W plants: 231 dcap, 234 boc +12% HP damage E: 440 dcap, 372 boc +12% HP damage R: 689 dcap, 592 boc +12% HP damage So, a deathcap build is doing more damage overall, I think this is fairly obvious. But here are some interesting points about that. #1 - The Liandry damage late in the game is almost always going to be over 100 damage, and against tanky champs may well be closer to 200 damage. When you add an extra 100 to all those numbers, the difference between the two shrinks. 524 vs 441 is a 20% difference, but 624 vs 541 is only a 15% difference. #2 - The Banner of Command also gives 10% CDR, and Zyra has pretty low cooldowns and built in CDR already. If you think of 10% CDR meaning 10% more damage throughout the fight on Q and E (you're only going to get to cast R once obviously) the difference gets smaller still. Now we're assuming 624 damage on a dcap Q, and 595 adjusted damage on a boc Q. CDR notably scales with Liandry's damage while AP does not. Plus all the added slows and roots etc. #3 - Banner of Command gives the active (IMO it's a really incredibly good active IF you can find an excuse to buy the item on its stats alone) and 30 armor, as well as HP regen and increased minion damage. So all in all, I think the dcap build probably does more damage, but it doesn't look like it's a huge amount more to me, we're talking like 5-10% more max, largely depending on how much HP the enemy team has. But banner of command is adding split pushing capability and utility. To me it doesn't look like one is strictly better, but based on team compositions and the game, both look like reasonable options. If your team also has an Elise or a Yorick, or you need additional split pushing to deal with their comp, or if they're a super heavy AD comp and armor is nice, BoC looks very reasonable to me. Edit: If your team has Elise or Yorick and you're support Zyra I'd also look at it as a reasonable choice for your 1 non wards item you're maybe getting, for the active and since you're probably not getting Locket. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:25 JonGalt wrote: You know my blackberry straight up breaks when I try to quote an Alaric post? At the very least it freezes for a few minutes. What about Swain? Why was he popular back in the day (end of season 1/beginning of season 2??) and yet he has received nothing but buffs and still no one plays him. Just another case of being outclassed? His 1v2 does not even seem like it would be terrible, but I don't play him (save for one time when I was hammered) so I am unsure. Enlighten me? i personally think swain is a niche but viable pick that may start seeing play soon as one of the stronger counters to ahri. as for why he isn't played much currently, i believe that is because currently popular mids fall into one of 2 categories - they either provide single target burst/pick potential (ahri, zed) or excellent zone control and aoe (orianna, karthus). while swain is a strong laner, he is firmly within the second group at most stages of the game and thus needs to compete with those champions. like karthus, swain is doing the most damage when he is in the middle of the enemy team, but karthus can actually stand to benefit from dying in that situation and does more damage to boot. while swain is pretty much impossible to kill when far ahead, he does not fare nearly as well when even or behind. also, nevermove is only reliable as a follow up initiate, and orianna's shockwave is simply better in that role. what swain does have over his competition is his laning strength and sustain. laning strength is not very important in professional play except when specifically picked to shut down a champion central to a draft, such as ahri vs tf (however, as i mentioned before, he is strong enough against ahri to merit consideration when drafting against pick comps). inherent sustain in kit, while strong, is by itself not a compelling reason to pick swain when he is outclassed by popular picks in damage and utility so swain is pretty good, but there is little reason for pro mids to pick him up when picks such as karthus or orianna fulfill similar roles, are superior in crucial aspects, and are already comfortable picks for every competent mid laner. that said, i would not be surprised to see swain make a return as a pocket ahri counter the above wall of text is specific to competitive play - i think he's fantastic in soloq, especially in lower levels of play | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He's also extremely dependant on both farm and levels so he's not like Renekton who can get away with being denied a bit. He can't rush utility items because of his ult's demands (and he needs a buffer of HP because when you're dead in a second you don't regenerate much) so he really takes long to take off, which isn't desirable these days. Mobility creep means that he isn't too good at avoiding ganks either. And Nautilus makes me sadder everytime I play him. He's like a Maokai who can clear. Unless you build a comp around him he feels like shit. Edit: to make it clearer, he's neither a good duelist nor a good 2v2 counterganker, and his damage, already low, falls off really, really fast. His ult isn't bad, but it lacks the punch other AoE initiation ults bring (like Malph, Sejuani, Zac) and it's more efficient as a follow-up (even on a slow, just so people don't scatter so easily) or counter-initiation, a bit like Nami. Without strong early damage I feel like he's simply outclassed, and he falls off so hard it's not even funny, you have to draft a really damage-oriented composition to make up for him being picked, so I can't pick him early in soloQ because I can't trust my team not to pick something like Ezreal or Caitlyn that scream "snowball before the midgame or suffer". | ||
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Nos-
Canada12016 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:04 Alaric wrote: Swain's 1v2 sucks because he only has 500 auto range, no shield, no sustain pre-6, and his waveclear is really, really bad (like worse than Ryze's). He's also extremely dependant on both farm and levels so he's not like Renekton who can get away with being denied a bit. He can't rush utility items because of his ult's demands (and he needs a buffer of HP because when you're dead in a second you don't regenerate much) so he really takes long to take off, which isn't desirable these days. Mobility creep means that he isn't too good at avoiding ganks either. And Nautilus makes me sadder everytime I play him. He's like a Maokai who can clear. Unless you build a comp around him he feels like shit. Swain can clear if he maxes W first but that's probably a terrible terrible idea. He can also get camped really easily, and once swain's behind, good luck getting back into the game | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On August 08 2013 16:14 Letmelose wrote: http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Taiwan_Regional_Finals The Taiwanese region gets one slot directly into the round of eight for the Season 3 World Championship (guaranteed by their seeding in the All Stars Championship), while the remainder of SEA gets a separate qualification round. http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Southeast_Asia_Regional_Finals I have always argued against Riot's policies involving Taiwanese teams. They are far stronger than the remainder of SEA, and have showed great results in major international tournaments (Season 2 World Championship, IPL5), but are often ignored. Riot even sabotaged the Taiwanese hopes of gaining an additional spot by forcing them to include two non-Taiwanese players in the All Stars Championship (player capabilities aside, they had by far the most language issues as far as I know, the Singaporean players didn't even know the names of the items in Chinese). I know Riot wants to get as much regional representation as possible, but the way they allocate the spots are in no shape or form a fair representation of the competitive capabilities of the regions involved. Further more, the only chance for Taiwanese region to gain more spots is plagued by the fact that Riot doesn't even allow them to represent themselves fairly, despite the fact that during the actual qualifiers, the rest of SEA are protected by the fact that no Taiwanese teams can participate in their qualfiers for the Season 3 World Championship. It's like forcing the North American all stars team to include Latin American players for the sake of regional representation despite the fact that Latin American teams have a separate route of qualification. I have always argued against it. Not a lot of people seem to care for it, really. Are you sure that Riot is the one that is doing this and not Garena? Seems to me that Riot just let their partners decide on how their worlds spots are distributed (as evidenced by the extremely different ways the partners set them up). | ||
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