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On August 09 2013 02:23 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:16 Clinic wrote:
fizz shark may have the ability to do damage to multiple targets but in teamfights it usually ends up functionally being an isolation spell along the lines of naut ult. the isolation then gives him space to go in on a single target
a lot of this argument comes down to what people mean by 'aoe teamfight'. i would consider fizz ult a skill that does aoe damage that gives him the ability to do his job of picking people off even in teamfights, but i don't think that's really in line with the wombo combo that comes to mind with the phrase aoe teamfight Well the argument is from a design point of view and not how it is in practice. Yango is entirely right that just looking at design wise it is some form of AoE teamfight ulti. It might not be used like that in practice but that doesn't really influence the initial design which is what I was talking about.
I don't know... we're getting into the territory of pure speculation now. Feartheguru makes a good point that the small AOE is designed just as a danger zone and deterrant as opposed to a standard "AOE teamfight ultimate". In which case the design is purposeful and fits well with his kit.
On August 09 2013 02:25 Slayer91 wrote:
i figured design wise its just meant to disencourage people bunching together which is a primary counter for assassins in general
agreed. again all this is speculation about Riot's intentions.
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United States47024 Posts
Of course that's the focus of the hero as a whole. I'm saying looking at the design of the ult specifically.
Like for example, if you gave Fizz Zed's ult (which is a through and through solo-killing ult on a hero with LESS solo-killing design in his 3 regular skills) instead of his own, it would be a much more solo-kill oriented skill.
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i dont thing he's saying he is a teamfight hero but its just he can teamfight especially in scrappy fights where people trickle in during weird gank/countergank stuff
again the ult just balances his kit a lot which is something riot likes to do and i kind of agree with. having a champ that only works in certain situations makes a champ much more inacessable for people who like the champ to play it
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On August 09 2013 02:27 TheYango wrote:
Of course that's the focus of the hero as a whole. I'm saying looking at the design of the ult specifically.
Like for example, if you gave Fizz Zed's ult (which is a through and through solo-killing ult) instead of his own, it would be a much more solo-kill oriented skill.
I know would you're saying, and I'm telling you you're wrong, along with many other people here. Fizz ult is every bit as single target focused as Zed ult. Virtually 0 difference. Fizz ult is not meant for AoE damage (Atleast 5 people have said this), it disperses people so Fizz can do the assassination.
"if you gave Fizz Zed's ult (which is a through and through solo-killing ult) instead of his own, it would be a much more solo-kill oriented skill"
This is so grammatically unclear I don't think I can respond. Zed's ult is what it is, of course putting it on another champ doesn't change the skill? What is this supposed to mean.
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United States47024 Posts
I mean, the big lesson I think Riot learned from other games in the genre is that people like to teamfight. People have the most fun when the proper gameplay is for all 10 players to run at each other and butt heads. Long farmy games are boring to people, split-push is boring to people, getting ganked/solo-killed is un-fun for people. Consequently, I think Riot intentionally geared champion kits in the game with teamfighting in mind--even the ones that are slanted toward non-teamfight gameplay are at least designed with "how this hero should play in a teamfight" in mind. I agree it probably makes for a more fun game on the whole.
EDIT: Fuck it, I'm getting worked up over nothing and not posting clearly. Teut understood where I was coming from, he could probably explain what I'm saying at this point better than I can.
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any discussion in which semantics plays a key role is going to be messy
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So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle 
Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO
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On August 09 2013 02:32 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:27 TheYango wrote:
Of course that's the focus of the hero as a whole. I'm saying looking at the design of the ult specifically.
Like for example, if you gave Fizz Zed's ult (which is a through and through solo-killing ult) instead of his own, it would be a much more solo-kill oriented skill. I know would you're saying, and I'm telling you you're wrong, along with many other people here. Fizz ult is every bit as single target focused as Zed ult. Virtually 0 difference. Fizz ult is not meant for AoE damage (Atleast 5 people have said this), it disperses people so Fizz can do the assassination.
Doesn't that make it a nice teamfight ability that rounds out his kit?
If Fizz ult instead only stuck to a target if they were at least 800 range away from his teammates, that would the exact opposite and also make Fizz totally worthless in teamfights. The fact that Fizz can still teamfight, albeit excelling at chaotic ones, comes from the ability for him to create isolation with his ultimate in situations that would otherwise hamper an assassin.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 09 2013 02:45 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO
There was that period after MVP White vs najin sword when ssong walked over mvp white with AP kayle mid where in both lcs' the ban/pick phase was a mad dash to pick up kayle mid but at some point it just kind of stopped.
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On August 09 2013 01:48 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 01:09 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2013 22:51 Ketara wrote:On August 08 2013 16:00 Seuss wrote:On August 08 2013 13:38 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how much damage Banner of Command is actually adding, it'd be interesting to see some math on the subject. Here's the math: Zyra's plants do 15% more damage. The math was hard. ^.^ On August 08 2013 14:20 SagaZ wrote:
About burning Zyra, the rylai liandry is standart on her I think, elder lizard as said looks forced to fit the theme, it's the banner of command i'm interested in. How impactfull if the minion passive? does it affect other summons (elise spiderlings?)? any maths lying around about the dps increase of it vs a "normal" ap item. Also are you even going to be in passive range of your plants so is it possible gameplay wise? This math is more complicated. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume that we have two Zyra players, one with Banner of Command and one who spent that gold on pure AP (NLR + Blasting Wand), but are otherwise identical. Thus, the Banner of Command build is always 80 AP behind. We can't simply look at plant damage as Zyra has other abilities to consider. If there were only plants involved at Banner of Command would surpass the pure AP route the moment Zyra was level 12 or higher. Because we're looking at a larger picture, our equation for determining the point of equivalent damage is this: 80 AP * (Zyra's Abilty Ratios + Zyra's Plant Ratio * # of Plant Attacks = ((Total BoC Build AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 * Level) * # of Plant Attacks Because we're assuming the BoC build is always 80 AP behind, the Total AP for the Pure AP Build gets reduced to the 80 AP on the left side of the equation. Assuming level 18, the equation resolves likeso: 80 * (0.6 + 0.5 + 0.7 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 3.9 + 0.9 *18) * # of Plant Attacks 80 * (1.8 + 0.2 * # of Plant Attacks) = ((AP) * 0.03 + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 + 16 * # of Plant Attacks = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 20.1) * # of Plant Attacks - 16 * # of Plant Attacks 144 = (0.03 AP + 4.1) * # of Plant Attacks For one plant attack to do equivalent damage, you need 4663 AP. That's fairly unreasonable. Each additional plant attack on a unique target will reduce that figure. At two attacks you need 2263 AP, at four 1063 AP, and at 8 a reasonable 463 AP. Conversely, increasing the number of targets caught in Zyra's AoE increases the AP needed, as does considering additional casts of her abilities. The end result is that Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, and as a part of the Burning Bush Zyra build results in a deceptively tanky Zyra, but it isn't particularly spectacular offensively. I'm not sure that I completely buy this, Monte. You're looking at math based on 1 item compositions, when Banner of Command adds damage as a percentage, meaning that it's going to be more cost efficient the later in your build you get it. Lets look at two Zyra builds. First build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Deathcap (465 AP with a normal rune/mastery build) Second build: Rylai, Liandry, Void Staff, Banner of Command, Blasting Wand (330 AP with a normal rune/mastery build, Blasting Wand is to make the gold cost similar) And how much damage an attack would do with either build at level 18. I'm not factoring in mpen because the mpen should be the same for both builds. Q: 524 dcap, 441 boc +12% HP damage W plants: 231 dcap, 234 boc +12% HP damage E: 440 dcap, 372 boc +12% HP damage R: 689 dcap, 592 boc +12% HP damage So, a deathcap build is doing more damage overall, I think this is fairly obvious. But here are some interesting points about that. #1 - The Liandry damage late in the game is almost always going to be over 100 damage, and against tanky champs may well be closer to 200 damage. When you add an extra 100 to all those numbers, the difference between the two shrinks. 524 vs 441 is a 20% difference, but 624 vs 541 is only a 15% difference. #2 - The Banner of Command also gives 10% CDR, and Zyra has pretty low cooldowns and built in CDR already. If you think of 10% CDR meaning 10% more damage throughout the fight on Q and E (you're only going to get to cast R once obviously) the difference gets smaller still. Now we're assuming 624 damage on a dcap Q, and 595 adjusted damage on a boc Q. CDR notably scales with Liandry's damage while AP does not. Plus all the added slows and roots etc. #3 - Banner of Command gives the active (IMO it's a really incredibly good active IF you can find an excuse to buy the item on its stats alone) and 30 armor, as well as HP regen and increased minion damage. So all in all, I think the dcap build probably does more damage, but it doesn't look like it's a huge amount more to me, we're talking like 5-10% more max, largely depending on how much HP the enemy team has. But banner of command is adding split pushing capability and utility. To me it doesn't look like one is strictly better, but based on team compositions and the game, both look like reasonable options. If your team also has an Elise or a Yorick, or you need additional split pushing to deal with their comp, or if they're a super heavy AD comp and armor is nice, BoC looks very reasonable to me. Edit: If your team has Elise or Yorick and you're support Zyra I'd also look at it as a reasonable choice for your 1 non wards item you're maybe getting, for the active and since you're probably not getting Locket. My math didn't use one item comparisons, it simply worked under the assumption that regardless of build the Banner of Command setup would be 80 AP behind. That wasn't exactly precise, but it was reasonable and slightly generous for Banner of Command. As we can see from your setups, throwing in Deathcap actually makes things worse, increasing the gap to 135 AP. I have three concerns with your argument: - I think you're overestimating Liandry's impact, not that it's entirely relevant.
- I think you're overvaluing CDR, and failing to consider that other CDR items might do far more than Banner in either case.
- Despite the aforementioned concerns the non-Banner build is still 5-10% damage ahead, and plant damage is essentially identical.
In detail: + Show Spoiler [Liandry's] +I tend to avoid making assumptions and generalizations about Liandry's because it's such a pain in the butt to math out. I'm not going to do that now, but I'm going to point out issues you didn't bring up. - Overlapping spells/plant attacks result in only one Liandry's proc.
- Unless someone else is slowing for you, Rylai's only covers the first half of a Liandry's proc. Moreover, building Rylai's in place of Zhonya's is extremely weird.
- Liandry's ticks every half-second. Unless your opponents are healing damage faster than you dish it out, each tick is thus going to do less damage.
- At the ends of fights, when people are low, Liandry's damage is dramatically diminished.
In short, assuming that Liandry's average damage is going to be in the 100-200 range every time you cast a spell is rather ridiculous unless you're intentionally spacing your abilities out at 3 second intervals and your opponents all have more than 4000 health at all times. But that's mostly irrelevant. The Liandry's damage between the two builds is roughly analogous in any case. Factoring in Liandry's damage to the total is useful for context, but can also obscure important points (SEE: Spoiler:Damages). Any time Zyra has Blue Buff the CDR from Banner of Command is a moot point. Similarly, if Zyra has any CDR from Runes/Masteries and buys a blue elixir some or all of Banner of Command's CDR will be eaten into. Finally, battle conditions do not always permit abilities to be used precisely on cooldown, and in Zyra's case in particular she's not like to hit multiple targets with her abilities beyond her initial combo.
So in order to be assured that Banner's CDR is useful, you have to make a bunch of assumptions (e.g. no Blue buff, no CDR from runes/masteries, perfect ability timing etc.) which make other CDR items look very appealing. Morellonomicon, for example, gives twice as much CDR and AP for roughly the same price, and has extremely valuable utility as well.
Essentially, CDR isn't necessarily going to be useful, and when it is there are better items. 5-10% extra damage doesn't sound like all that much, but when you're looking at 5-6 item builds that seemingly low % figure can be deceiving.
For example, the additional 135 AP in the Deathcap build translates to approximately 250 extra damage on Zyra's initial combo to all targets caught in the AoE. Each Q or E cast thereafter deals 70-80 additional damage, which the CDR from Banner of command won't ever fully catch up to (and won't even be close until the fight is practically over). Banner of Command won't be getting any significant help from the 3 extra damage its plants do either.
The damage difference is big, even if the %s seem small, and unless your team has damage in excess (and even then) the active on Banner isn't going to be worth the difference. So my take on it hasn't changed. Banner of Command isn't really worth it. It's amusing, but not much else. Actually discussing LoL is nice. I don't think either of the builds I mentioned are sacrificing Zhonya for Rylai. I think your 5th item in either build is likely to be either Zhonya or Seraphs. I haven't played much Zyra and I'm not really sure how much mana regen she has to have. Can she make do with early Dorans and then selling them later? The determining factors in the damage comparisons are really going to be A - how many people does your spell combo hit. B - how many attacks are your plants getting off, and C - how long is the fight. In a short fight where your spells hit their whole team, Deathcap is obviously going to be superior, but in longer engagements or in battles where your plants don't get bursted down quickly, the CDR and extra minion damage from banner of command will close the gap to a degree. I don't think an assumption of 100 added damage from Liandry's is a bad guesstimation. Late game every target is going to have over 2k health, meaning a single fully ticking Liandry proc will be doing minimum 200 damage, and even though the procs don't stack, they do overlap as Zyra keeps hitting them. I think a rough guess of 100 damage from Liandry's on a squishy target, or 200 on a 3k+ health tanky target is fair. If they're getting bursted down so fast that Liandry's doesn't get to do any damage then how much damage Liandry's is doing is irrelevant, they're already dead. I also don't think assuming Zyra will be getting blue buff is a good idea. Late game with 10% CDR from 1 item and a blue elixir she can easily give blue buff to another person on the team. She doesn't want a 20% CDR item because that's inefficient with the built in CDR from her kit, and there are very limited AP options that only give 10% CDR. DFG vs. Banner of Command might be a more fair comparison than Deathcap vs. Banner of Command, but I just don't see Zyra as the kind of mage who wants a DFG. There are a lot of factors here that are hard to discuss and theorycraft, but I think there's enough in favor of Banner of Command from a numbers perspective that it's worth giving it a passive glance and seeing how it feels in a game rather than just dismissing it as a gimmick. One of my big issues with mid Zyra personally is I feel like good builds for her have a lot of armor and no MR. Like assuming you went Banner of Command you'd end up with a build like Rylai, Liandry, Void, BoC, Zhonya. This feels like a strong build to me against an AD Assassin focused comp, but not so great against double AP which is what's in vogue right now.
Some points:- Rylai's is replacing Zhonya's in your build timing-wise. Zhonya's isn't an item you put off to your fifth or sixth slot unless you're utterly stomping (and even then). You want Zhonya's early because it allows you to avoid more damage than Rylai's health buffer provides, bait opponents, and buy time. Its utility/survivability is just that good.
- Banner's CDR and minion damage will not close the gap, ever. Banner is in the hole starting from the initial combo, and that hole only grows larger the longer a fight goes on. The Banner build only beats Deathcap's damage when it comes to plants, and only by 3 damage per attack. You'd need at least three hasted plants attacking unique targets continuously for every champion Zyra hits with Q or E over the course of the rest of the fight to tread water, let alone catch up. This is, again, assuming Zyra doesn't have Blue buff or other sources of CDR.
- I'm not going to reargue your Liandry's math rigorously, but suffice it to say that generalizing it by adding 100 flat damage to every cast of every spell, as you did in your first response, strikes me as ridiculous for the reasons I outlined before. It's also still largely irrelevant to the comparison of Deathcap and BoC.
- 20% CDR isn't inefficient on Zyra. You actually see Athene's and Morellonomicon on her very frequently (even in pro mid play), more frequently than any 10% CDR items. It's also kind of silly to write them off as inefficient if you haven't done the math to compare them.
- Finally, I'm not sure how doing complicated math and thorough analysis counts as giving Banner a "passive glance". I gave it more than a fair shot. I've even played the burning bush build. As a part of standard builds Banner of Command is significantly inferior to other options. Balance, the meta, or something else has to change before that does.
If you want to change my mind you're going to need to do some rigorous math.
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On August 09 2013 02:48 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:45 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO There was that period after MVP White vs najin sword when ssong walked over mvp white with AP kayle mid where in both lcs' the ban/pick phase was a mad dash to pick up kayle mid but at some point it just kind of stopped.
She got nerfed.Pretty good reason.
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Ahh I get what Yango's trying to say now. He's saying Fizz ult is a teamfight ult because it has good use cases for teamfights. The disagreement is whether it's meant for teamfighting which we can bicker about forever. Also ambiguity comes from what "teamfight" means and how it differentiates from "AOE".
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 09 2013 02:51 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:48 Fusilero wrote:On August 09 2013 02:45 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO There was that period after MVP White vs najin sword when ssong walked over mvp white with AP kayle mid where in both lcs' the ban/pick phase was a mad dash to pick up kayle mid but at some point it just kind of stopped. She got nerfed.Pretty good reason.
I can't remember, what was the nerf?
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On August 09 2013 02:48 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:45 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO There was that period after MVP White vs najin sword when ssong walked over mvp white with AP kayle mid where in both lcs' the ban/pick phase was a mad dash to pick up kayle mid but at some point it just kind of stopped.
Yep, typically a case of bandwagonning I'd say. I think she's up there in the «closet OP champs» with Wukong.
EDIT : her nerfs were range nerfs to ult and heal which are pretty insignificant, and Q being reworked into less damage but more slow.
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Her q doesn't give her damage amplification.Only procs passive.That's a lot of burst less.She seems fine but nothing that amazing.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On August 09 2013 02:52 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:48 Fusilero wrote:On August 09 2013 02:45 mr_tolkien wrote:So, after tons of games with Karma, and finally learning to play Kayle, ... Karma just feels like poor man's kayle Kayle also has shitton of utility with slow, MS buff, and invulerability, she also offers lots of AoE damage, but she's just better in 90% of cases... Dunno why this champion is played so few oO There was that period after MVP White vs najin sword when ssong walked over mvp white with AP kayle mid where in both lcs' the ban/pick phase was a mad dash to pick up kayle mid but at some point it just kind of stopped. Yep, typically a case of bandwagonning I'd say. I think she's up there in the «closet OP champs» with Wukong.
Well sometimes things get re-figured out, maknoon re-discovered kennen just because of that ult buff (My friend who spams the shit out of kennen tells me though that the change to ult was massive though so maybe it did more than I thought)
Now what I want to know is what the hell happened to kayle jungle, imsofresh promised me a kayle jungle revolution but then it ended just as fast as the hype for team millenium.
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On August 09 2013 02:54 nafta wrote:
Her q doesn't give her damage amplification.Only procs passive.That's a lot of burst less.She seems fine but nothing that amazing.
They also reduced the cast range on her ult.
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On August 09 2013 02:55 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2013 02:54 nafta wrote:
Her q doesn't give her damage amplification.Only procs passive.That's a lot of burst less.She seems fine but nothing that amazing. They also reduced the cast range on her ult.
that's a completely warranted change given how absurd the range was on such a game changing ultimate
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On August 09 2013 02:03 ETisME wrote:
how do you guys learn a champion?
I am not talking about the basic combo or builds etc.
I always get lose out in lane with elise and everyone says she is a good lane bully but I keep getting out sustain like against chogath or out traded by wukong
i think wukong dunks on elise all day, every day
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Okay guys:
Lets say you could make a team with absolute perfect control and decision making. Who would be must pick/ban tier?
I think globals, TF especially, would be imbalanced with perfect play.
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EPT
