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On November 22 2012 04:28 OutlaW- wrote:
He's a league worse than Aphromoo Doublift and Imaqtpie who are all really, really good.
NA AD carries are a step above all the other roles. Cop is mediocre, and I have to close my eyes to call him even that.
If you read my first post, though, I agree with you. There are no good AD carries on the market right now and the easiest way to fix their bottom lane is to have a good support carry him. Hopefully Rhux can do it.
maybe ad is just the easiest role h4h4
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not sure how to respond and not make a fool of myself due to your obvious sarcasm but at the same time want to protect aphro/qtpie/dlift's dignities because they really are good at this game
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On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
This is wrong. There are situations where the right play is to fight aggressively, and if you do but your support messes up and you lose the fight because of it, then you will likely die.
In a 2v2 setup you have to be able to rely on your ally to play properly even in fights. You can't just assume your ally is horrible and play passively because of it even when the situation requires other plays.
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United States23745 Posts
On November 22 2012 04:28 OutlaW- wrote:
He's a league worse than Aphromoo Doublift and Imaqtpie who are all really, really good.
NA AD carries are a step above all the other roles. Cop is mediocre, and I have to close my eyes to call him even that.
If you read my first post, though, I agree with you. There are no good AD carries on the market right now and the easiest way to fix their bottom lane is to have a good support carry him. Hopefully Rhux can do it.
Sorry, I read it, I was just agreeing. I've seen him had good days, he's really inconsistent though. Free agent scene right now is kind of sparse, only ADC free agent I can think of is Demunlul, who a lot of pro players considered to be top tier NA. I'm really interested to see teams officially announce their subs for season 3.
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On November 22 2012 04:37 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault. This is wrong. There are situations where the right play is to fight aggressively, and if you do but your support messes up and you lose the fight because of it, then you will likely die. In a 2v2 setup you have to be able to rely on your ally to play properly even in fights. You can't just assume your ally is horrible and play passively because of it even when the situation requires other plays.
you're right, i was thinking about it with a soloque mentality and forgot about that scenario, but that still doesn't mean the ad has to die. depending on the misplay of the support there should be enough time to get out, cut losses, and let only the support die.
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On November 22 2012 04:41 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:37 spinesheath wrote:On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault. This is wrong. There are situations where the right play is to fight aggressively, and if you do but your support messes up and you lose the fight because of it, then you will likely die. In a 2v2 setup you have to be able to rely on your ally to play properly even in fights. You can't just assume your ally is horrible and play passively because of it even when the situation requires other plays. you're right, i was thinking about it with a soloque mentality and forgot about that scenario, but that still doesn't mean the ad has to die. depending on the misplay of the support there should be enough time to get out, cut losses, and let only the support die.
Lol no way. You rely on a support to shield you, to exhaust for you, to slow for you, to stun, to land snares. If in your calculations you assume that the support will successfully land their skills and then they end up missing or not using them at all then you very well may die. Or of course the support might not trust you and end up leaving the fight.
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All possibilities exist, i.e. ad dying, support dying, both dying. It all depends on if you still have flash/your escape up or if you used it aggressively, if the other guy has a way to chase you, etc. I'm guessing you just assume that I meant that the ad can survive no matter what, which isn't true, but I think when you're like corki and you realize that you're not gonna win the fight after your support messes up you can just valk away and leave him to die.
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United States23745 Posts
On November 22 2012 04:48 OutlaW- wrote:
All possibilities exist, i.e. ad dying, support dying, both dying. It all depends on if you still have flash/your escape up or if you used it aggressively, if the other guy has a way to chase you, etc. I'm guessing you just assume that I meant that the ad can survive no matter what, which isn't true, but I think when you're like corki and you realize that you're not gonna win the fight after your support messes up you can just valk away and leave him to die.
Not always that easy, the enemy team has summoners and CC as well. Can't valk away if the enemy Zyra lands her snare for example.
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Sure, but she usually does that at the start of the fight, and if you're low enough that you get killed because of 1 zyra snare then it's probably your fault
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Even if you're corki what if your alistar or leona headbutt pulvs or zenith blades into them well out of your auto range knowing you had valk up? Would you be walking up to them to engage after the stun wears off or valking so you can actually have a chance at the kill and save your support from dying simultaneously? Then once you've all in'd you realize you don't have exhaust up while their support does and you get wrecked? These things do happen, and with the lack of communication in soloq happens more often than it should.
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These situations happen, but Elementz doesn't play Leona or Alistar. Also, you could have seen that you were gonna lose that fight before Valking in. I think we should stop this argument right now because it's obvious that I haven't seen everything when making my original statement and we're only discussing all the possibilities atm.
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On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
No, it's not hard to know. He's bad. I think so and so do many, many streamers, who frequently comment and laugh about it.
While your argument is correct to an extent, it's not entirely true. A good AD with a bad support won't be able to win his lane if he's playing against an adc who has a good support (this relies on the champions but is mostly true), but I never said that Cop is bad because he loses lane. Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
You can also look at aphromoo who plays tons of games with random supports and manages to win lane every single time. I guess this is going against my point at the top but it shows that you can overcome the badness of your support with skill.
Cop is bad in laning phase and I've never seen him carry a game, largely because of his mediocre positioning and game sense.
Cop doesn't always buy phage, but when he does, he always procs it on the first shot.
As far as CRS line up is concerned, bot lane wasn't really their problem. Their initial troubles was from bad top lane, and fairly limited mid lane (westrice, and nyjacky's small champ pool). With the replacement of westrice w/ voyboy, and the huge improvement by nyjacky, a lot of their main weaknesses was shored up. Cop and Elementz didn't always win lane, but they rarely got stomped that hard as well. Sure, cop's no DL, or Aphro, but is he competitive with other AD carries in the scene? especially in NA and EU? Yes, if anything he's probably above average AD carry in NA+EU scene. Elementz has shown a huge improvement in play, Chau-level support he's not, but I'd argue his champ pool and skills also mark up with the average NA+EU scene. The main problem with CRS isn't any "weaknesses", but it's more the lack of "Strengths". Yes, nyjacky is arguably the best mid NA right now, but he's no froggen. Voyboy is pretty fucking dominant in a top 1v1 island, but he's no maknoon. What they need is a player that can CARRY. HARD. Nyjacky is the closest thing they have to that, but as much as I love the dude, he's not carrying hard enough in majority of the games.
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United States23745 Posts
On November 22 2012 05:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
No, it's not hard to know. He's bad. I think so and so do many, many streamers, who frequently comment and laugh about it.
While your argument is correct to an extent, it's not entirely true. A good AD with a bad support won't be able to win his lane if he's playing against an adc who has a good support (this relies on the champions but is mostly true), but I never said that Cop is bad because he loses lane. Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
You can also look at aphromoo who plays tons of games with random supports and manages to win lane every single time. I guess this is going against my point at the top but it shows that you can overcome the badness of your support with skill.
Cop is bad in laning phase and I've never seen him carry a game, largely because of his mediocre positioning and game sense. Cop doesn't always buy phage, but when he does, he always procs it on the first shot.
Luckiest Phage Procer NA.
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Cop is under-rated so damn much, can't wait for him to prove you wrong. The guy's a talented AD player and damn good at it. I honestly have no idea what the hell you are talking about him being the weakest player on curse considering Elementz exists.
Cop will remind you why he's the law in IPL5.
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On November 22 2012 05:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
No, it's not hard to know. He's bad. I think so and so do many, many streamers, who frequently comment and laugh about it.
While your argument is correct to an extent, it's not entirely true. A good AD with a bad support won't be able to win his lane if he's playing against an adc who has a good support (this relies on the champions but is mostly true), but I never said that Cop is bad because he loses lane. Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
You can also look at aphromoo who plays tons of games with random supports and manages to win lane every single time. I guess this is going against my point at the top but it shows that you can overcome the badness of your support with skill.
Cop is bad in laning phase and I've never seen him carry a game, largely because of his mediocre positioning and game sense. Cop doesn't always buy phage, but when he does, he always procs it on the first shot. As far as CRS line up is concerned, bot lane wasn't really their problem. Their initial troubles was from bad top lane, and fairly limited mid lane (westrice, and nyjacky's small champ pool). With the replacement of westrice w/ voyboy, and the huge improvement by nyjacky, a lot of their main weaknesses was shored up. Cop and Elementz didn't always win lane, but they rarely got stomped that hard as well. Sure, cop's no DL, or Aphro, but is he competitive with other AD carries in the scene? especially in NA and EU? Yes, if anything he's probably above average AD carry in NA+EU scene. Elementz has shown a huge improvement in play, Chau-level support he's not, but I'd argue his champ pool and skills also mark up with the average NA+EU scene. The main problem with CRS isn't any "weaknesses", but it's more the lack of "Strengths". Yes, nyjacky is arguably the best mid NA right now, but he's no froggen. Voyboy is pretty fucking dominant in a top 1v1 island, but he's no maknoon. What they need is a player that can CARRY. HARD. Nyjacky is the closest thing they have to that, but as much as I love the dude, he's not carrying hard enough in majority of the games.
as i was reading the first half of your post i was just about to make the point that you made in the latter half
dont know if jacky is the best mid in NA, though. i think its pretty hard to compare since they're all pretty mediocre but I think him jiji scarra and regi are at about the same level
being average in NA/EU is great but it's not gonna cut it anymore since koreans are leaking out
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On November 22 2012 05:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
No, it's not hard to know. He's bad. I think so and so do many, many streamers, who frequently comment and laugh about it.
While your argument is correct to an extent, it's not entirely true. A good AD with a bad support won't be able to win his lane if he's playing against an adc who has a good support (this relies on the champions but is mostly true), but I never said that Cop is bad because he loses lane. Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
You can also look at aphromoo who plays tons of games with random supports and manages to win lane every single time. I guess this is going against my point at the top but it shows that you can overcome the badness of your support with skill.
Cop is bad in laning phase and I've never seen him carry a game, largely because of his mediocre positioning and game sense. Cop doesn't always buy phage, but when he does, he always procs it on the first shot. As far as CRS line up is concerned, bot lane wasn't really their problem. Their initial troubles was from bad top lane, and fairly limited mid lane (westrice, and nyjacky's small champ pool). With the replacement of westrice w/ voyboy, and the huge improvement by nyjacky, a lot of their main weaknesses was shored up. Cop and Elementz didn't always win lane, but they rarely got stomped that hard as well. Sure, cop's no DL, or Aphro, but is he competitive with other AD carries in the scene? especially in NA and EU? Yes, if anything he's probably above average AD carry in NA+EU scene. Elementz has shown a huge improvement in play, Chau-level support he's not, but I'd argue his champ pool and skills also mark up with the average NA+EU scene. The main problem with CRS isn't any "weaknesses", but it's more the lack of "Strengths". Yes, nyjacky is arguably the best mid NA right now, but he's no froggen. Voyboy is pretty fucking dominant in a top 1v1 island, but he's no maknoon. What they need is a player that can CARRY. HARD. Nyjacky is the closest thing they have to that, but as much as I love the dude, he's not carrying hard enough in majority of the games.
The same can be said about Dignitas then. It's not like they have any kind of particularly "strength".
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On November 22 2012 05:07 Parnage wrote:
Cop is under-rated so damn much, can't wait for him to prove you wrong. The guy's a talented AD player and damn good at it. I honestly have no idea what the hell you are talking about him being the weakest player on curse considering Elementz exists.
Cop will remind you why he's the law in IPL5.
He improved a shit ton throughout S2, I wouldn't be surprised if he's like a few months away from becoming one of the top tier NA ADC's.
On November 22 2012 05:11 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 05:02 wei2coolman wrote:On November 22 2012 04:16 OutlaW- wrote:
No, it's not hard to know. He's bad. I think so and so do many, many streamers, who frequently comment and laugh about it.
While your argument is correct to an extent, it's not entirely true. A good AD with a bad support won't be able to win his lane if he's playing against an adc who has a good support (this relies on the champions but is mostly true), but I never said that Cop is bad because he loses lane. Even if it were Elementz' fault that he lost lane (which I dare you to give me an example of where this is true because I've never seen it happen before), Cop should never, ever die. Losing lane means being behind on cs, dying is his own fault.
You can also look at aphromoo who plays tons of games with random supports and manages to win lane every single time. I guess this is going against my point at the top but it shows that you can overcome the badness of your support with skill.
Cop is bad in laning phase and I've never seen him carry a game, largely because of his mediocre positioning and game sense. Cop doesn't always buy phage, but when he does, he always procs it on the first shot. As far as CRS line up is concerned, bot lane wasn't really their problem. Their initial troubles was from bad top lane, and fairly limited mid lane (westrice, and nyjacky's small champ pool). With the replacement of westrice w/ voyboy, and the huge improvement by nyjacky, a lot of their main weaknesses was shored up. Cop and Elementz didn't always win lane, but they rarely got stomped that hard as well. Sure, cop's no DL, or Aphro, but is he competitive with other AD carries in the scene? especially in NA and EU? Yes, if anything he's probably above average AD carry in NA+EU scene. Elementz has shown a huge improvement in play, Chau-level support he's not, but I'd argue his champ pool and skills also mark up with the average NA+EU scene. The main problem with CRS isn't any "weaknesses", but it's more the lack of "Strengths". Yes, nyjacky is arguably the best mid NA right now, but he's no froggen. Voyboy is pretty fucking dominant in a top 1v1 island, but he's no maknoon. What they need is a player that can CARRY. HARD. Nyjacky is the closest thing they have to that, but as much as I love the dude, he's not carrying hard enough in majority of the games. The same can be said about Dignitas then. It's not like they have any kind of particularly "strength".
and that's why they're in a slump... Also, iwilldominate is doing the exact opposite of his name, despite his Brony skills. Also, crumbz top lane is pretty weak (aside from his jax).
Changing rhux out for elementz isn't going to make crs significantly better, what needs to happen is Nyjacky needs to channel his inner taiwanese carry pants, and pull out some Toyz level shit.
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This just kind of made me happy in my pants, not gonna lie.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 22 2012 04:28 OutlaW- wrote:
He's a league worse than Aphromoo Doublift and Imaqtpie who are all really, really good.
NA AD carries are a step above all the other roles. Cop is mediocre, and I have to close my eyes to call him even that.
If you read my first post, though, I agree with you. There are no good AD carries on the market right now and the easiest way to fix their bottom lane is to have a good support carry him. Hopefully Rhux can do it.
lol
You only say this because the main point of comparison is EU, and EU ADs aren't better while EU's other roles are.
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EPT
