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On November 12 2012 06:39 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 06:30 ticklishmusic wrote:On November 12 2012 06:22 Numy wrote:On November 12 2012 06:19 ticklishmusic wrote:On November 12 2012 06:11 xes wrote:On November 12 2012 06:09 ticklishmusic wrote:On November 12 2012 05:30 Sufficiency wrote:On November 12 2012 05:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
If you tell them Kat is coming, then they should know to retreat to their tower. Sure they lose out on lane xp and gold, but Kat does too. There's nothing wrong with deliberately getting counterpicked if you're confident that you'll be ok and that you feel you'll be more useful. I am not 100% sure. When Kat roams and you just farm your lane, you are taxing the other lanes (even if they don't die, they have to back off and lose farm while you get more farm against Kat). I am not saying Karthus should chase after Katarina (probably won't end well). But a lot of players have this mentality that "as Iong as I warned my teammate I don't care if my lane opponent roams", which is really annoying. I'd argue that if Kat roams and you can warm your teammates so she doesn't get any kills and ends up just leeching a little xp while you free farm and push mid that it's overall a win for your team. It's like when you troll the enemy jungler when you have a ward and make them think there's a gank opportunity while your jungler steals their buffs. What if your bot lane screwed up once already so are behind, and then Kat and their jungler shows up to dive them at tower and kills them so fast that Karth ult doesn't even help? You can't make blanket statements of why a roam will or won't pay off just by pinging and telling your lanes to play safe. Well then, its not exactly your fault the game is lost if the bot lane messed up. Maybe you could have helped more if you were another champ, but that's a maybe. You could argue that you "force" your bot lane into a 2.5v2 because a smarter Kat would roam bottom, but its the same thing as a kill lane-- don't die and you win. I'm not making a blanket statement at all. The opportunity cost for Kat roaming is at least two waves of creep and experience and some amount of damage to her tower. To make it worth it she better get something nice out of it. That's just simple math. The thing is the whole "Kat loses a wave of creeps etc," is just a shitty attitude to have. If the kat wins the game while losing waves of creeps it doesn't really matter. You can have 50 cs more than your opposition lane but that laner could help win all the other lanes. I don't really get why people seem to care solely about laning and being "ahead of the other lane" when at the end of the day it's about winning as a team. What I'm trying to understand here is how having an unfed Kat roam bot when your teammates are going more or less even and are fully aware from your ping and their ward coverage is really going to make any sort of difference. Throwing in the enemy jungler for a 4man gank is changing the situation entirely, and you can hardly say its the mid's fault for picking Karthus or some other non-roamer at that point. I main support and I've done a lot of bitching about people not calling MIA. It's annoying, but hey, its soloQ so get over it. Map awareness is ultimately your responsibility as support. A properly placed ward already gives you a lot of time to react to someone coming to gank you, and I treat getting a MIA called as a friendly tip or luxury. In addition, the support should be constantly looking at the minimap to see if someone is missing anyways. It's because you are acting like you always have perfect vision and you always can be perfectly safe if you know. It's entirely possible you don't have perfect vision, you don't know where the enemy jungler is and or mid lane and it's possible even if you do know where they are they can still dive you under turret or it's too late for you to react. If you always play like at any possible moment you can die because the enemy has complete map control while you don't then you will lose anyway. You are also acting like one always has to commit to movement. If a play has already succeeded and then you lose map control the mere threat of movement is often enough to create advantages.
You don't always know where the enemy jungler is but you should know most of time if he's in your lane. If the enemy mid is missing, assume he/she is coming to gank and play carefully. In the vast majority of situations you should be able to be safe if you react accordingly. I'm advocating smart and conservative play, not timid towerhugging.
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yeah my main thing is that a lot of champs (like katarina) are not very good late game and are really worth very very little if they get no kills
karthus, however, is fucking amazing
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United States47024 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:02 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 15:38 Irave wrote:On November 11 2012 15:30 Sufficiency wrote:On November 11 2012 14:43 Irave wrote:
I now understand why Loco maxes glitterlance first on Lulu. Secured myself a triple kill with her because of it. This whole time I thought the taking kills was bad as a support. Go CLG! Maxing Q is the standard skill order anyway. I scream when I see a Lulu maxing E first. It's not the right way to play. I'm fairly new with her. I typically go r,w,q,e. Get the longer poly/slow then a more gentle followup glitterlance. New favorite stream. King Neilyo, 1900 play good commentary http://www.solomid.net/livestream.php?s=2786 I think people originally thought she should be played like Janna in lane and max E first (even Xpecial's largely outdated guide suggests maxing E first); but I think it's pretty certain right now that she should go Q E Q W Q R Q then R > Q > E > W. Her laning phase is about poking (similar to Sona), and her late game teamfight is about kiting (similar to Janna). With maximized CDR, Lulu's Q slow is absolutely obnoxious (4.2 seconds CD, 2 seconds AOE slow).
I don't know how people came to the conclusion that E is worth leveling beyond the first rank. For a shield, it has poor base values and doesn't carry any secondary effects like the more useful shields/heals in the game do (e.g. Janna's E has better shield values at all ranks, better range, better AP ratio, and gives AD). W's duration/CD scaling are much more game-changing than the minor E shield scaling.
The primary usefulness of the skill is to position Pix to give vision and aim Glitterlances. The ranks beyond the first are really poor benefit per-rank.
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United States23745 Posts
If he wants to play Karthus against Kat that's his choice, he isn't obligated to counter pick or choose a gank champ over a farm champ. His team has to adjust accordingly. Without even seeing the game, I would bet money they were probably over extending and didn't react to the MIA calls appropriately. He picked a viable AP champ, it's not like he was trying to play Nautilus mid or anything crazy like that.
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Naut mid was viable at release! Now his damage and W have been nerfed too much for it to work. But he wasn't intended to be Malphite anyway. 
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On November 12 2012 06:52 travis wrote:
yeah my main thing is that a lot of champs (like katarina) are not very good late game and are really worth very very little if they get no kills
karthus, however, is fucking amazing
Press R... Karthus always finds kills. I think he is also very farm-dependent but there is no good way to shut him down. Only champion that can reliably pick up kills from fountain. Disgusting...
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I successfully dusted off Nautilus for ranked the other day. It's depressing how ineffective he is right now.
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On November 12 2012 06:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
If he wants to play Karthus against Kat that's his choice, he isn't obligated to counter pick or choose a gank champ over a farm champ. His team has to adjust accordingly. Without even seeing the game, I would bet money they were probably over extending and didn't react to the MIA calls appropriately. He picked a viable AP champ, it's not like he was trying to play Nautilus mid or anything crazy like that.
Yes obviously you can play anything. I just think you shouldn't complain about your team in solo q when you do such a thing that is all.
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On November 12 2012 07:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 06:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
If he wants to play Karthus against Kat that's his choice, he isn't obligated to counter pick or choose a gank champ over a farm champ. His team has to adjust accordingly. Without even seeing the game, I would bet money they were probably over extending and didn't react to the MIA calls appropriately. He picked a viable AP champ, it's not like he was trying to play Nautilus mid or anything crazy like that. Yes obviously you can play anything. I just think you shouldn't complain about your team in solo q when you do such a thing that is all.
If you are good enough with Karthus to survive and farm evenly with Kat, i see no reason for you to NOT do it...
He pushes fast, can do wraiths + wolves quickyl, and is prolly in the top3 scaling mids, so having him farmed is a great thing imo. Maybe run teleport+ flash, so you can countergank where possible(?).
But i disagree on Kat being bad lategame... Reset after reset of superdamage.
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Teleport karthus is scary. Think Toyz ran it at Worlds and did some game changing stuff. Also ye Kat late game isn't bad, think only part of kat that is bad is early game.
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On November 12 2012 07:09 Gaslo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 07:04 Numy wrote:On November 12 2012 06:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
If he wants to play Karthus against Kat that's his choice, he isn't obligated to counter pick or choose a gank champ over a farm champ. His team has to adjust accordingly. Without even seeing the game, I would bet money they were probably over extending and didn't react to the MIA calls appropriately. He picked a viable AP champ, it's not like he was trying to play Nautilus mid or anything crazy like that. Yes obviously you can play anything. I just think you shouldn't complain about your team in solo q when you do such a thing that is all. If you are good enough with Karthus to survive and farm evenly with Kat, i see no reason for you to NOT do it... He pushes fast, can do wraiths + wolves quickyl, and is prolly in the top3 scaling mids, so having him farmed is a great thing imo. Maybe run teleport+ flash, so you can countergank where possible(?). But i disagree on Kat being bad lategame... Reset after reset of superdamage.
Kat's lategame is more decided by skill and deciding when to dive in with ult than anything else, if you mess that up it doesn't matter if you are fed or not. I'd have to say thats a main reason people say she has a bad lategame. She can't sit back (or dive in karthus style) and expect to carry unless she is signifigantly outplaying her opponents the entire time.
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On November 12 2012 07:04 Craton wrote:
I unsuccessfully dusted off Nautilus for ranked the other day. It's depressing how ineffective he is right now.
Fixed.
Play the tree man. YOU DON'T SEE HIM COMING.
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On November 12 2012 06:01 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing? You can add lulu to your list and I wouldn't play nidalee and morgana as support.
y I play lulu when she's free but didnt bought her yet. idk why i put morgana on the list, was just looking at champ list, i dont play her in ranked as support either. lux also top tier or not worth it?
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On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing?
Leona is a fantastic support, she adds so much to team fighting compositions, it's like having an ammumu on your team. Her only disadvantage is you *have* to coordinate very well with your ADC and exert pressure on your lane or she's really awful. Thankfully she poops on every other support as far as sheer capability for havoc goes, so it isn't hard, but you need your team to play in such a way that their mid and jungle can't punish you for heavy pressure and zoning. That means
- run leona with strongly pushing mids
- run leona with control junglers like nunu and maoki who can establish/clear ward presence early on and maintain that
- Ideally run leona with long ranged AOE teammates like xerath and zyra to immediately blow her passive on teams you catch with your ult or zenith blade, or teammates who can allow a support to initiate very hard while popping the passive as well such as oriana and zilean.
You seem to be comfortable with the more agressive/CC/bursty supports, leona is like them only she allows no mistakes. You can't max heal like you can on taric or ali. You gotta blow them fuckers up.
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On November 12 2012 07:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 06:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
If he wants to play Karthus against Kat that's his choice, he isn't obligated to counter pick or choose a gank champ over a farm champ. His team has to adjust accordingly. Without even seeing the game, I would bet money they were probably over extending and didn't react to the MIA calls appropriately. He picked a viable AP champ, it's not like he was trying to play Nautilus mid or anything crazy like that. Yes obviously you can play anything. I just think you shouldn't complain about your team in solo q when you do such a thing that is all.
I actually never complained about my team, rather it was the opposite. I didn't really think I did anything wrong, but when all 4 of them are spamming about how i "lost the game by picking karthus" i felt the desire to come in here and post about it.
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On November 12 2012 07:32 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing? Leona is a fantastic support, she adds so much to team fighting compositions, it's like having an ammumu on your team. Her only disadvantage is you *have* to coordinate very well with your ADC and exert pressure on your lane or she's really awful. Thankfully she poops on every other support as far as sheer capability for havoc goes, so it isn't hard, but you need your team to play in such a way that their mid and jungle can't punish you for heavy pressure and zoning. That means - run leona with strongly pushing mids - run leona with control junglers like nunu and maoki who can establish/clear ward presence early on and maintain that - Ideally run leona with long ranged AOE teammates like xerath and zyra to immediately blow her passive on teams you catch with your ult or zenith blade, or teammates who can allow a support to initiate very hard while popping the passive as well such as oriana and zilean. You seem to be comfortable with the more agressive/CC/bursty supports, leona is like them only she allows no mistakes. You can't max heal like you can on taric or ali. You gotta blow them fuckers up.
yeah i play mostly aggressive supports. Mostly blitz and nunu lately, ali before the nerf, some taric if my lane partner asks for it, sona when I feel a bit more defensive or aoe comp but still play her very offensive, always pressuring with q and passive. Even when I play soraka, i only enjoy her on a comp like cait or urgot that allows me to be always under their turret denying them cs, spam e on the adc and let him harass them out of lane.
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On November 12 2012 07:59 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 07:32 Thereisnosaurus wrote:On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing? Leona is a fantastic support, she adds so much to team fighting compositions, it's like having an ammumu on your team. Her only disadvantage is you *have* to coordinate very well with your ADC and exert pressure on your lane or she's really awful. Thankfully she poops on every other support as far as sheer capability for havoc goes, so it isn't hard, but you need your team to play in such a way that their mid and jungle can't punish you for heavy pressure and zoning. That means - run leona with strongly pushing mids - run leona with control junglers like nunu and maoki who can establish/clear ward presence early on and maintain that - Ideally run leona with long ranged AOE teammates like xerath and zyra to immediately blow her passive on teams you catch with your ult or zenith blade, or teammates who can allow a support to initiate very hard while popping the passive as well such as oriana and zilean. You seem to be comfortable with the more agressive/CC/bursty supports, leona is like them only she allows no mistakes. You can't max heal like you can on taric or ali. You gotta blow them fuckers up. yeah i play mostly aggressive supports. Mostly blitz and nunu lately, ali before the nerf, some taric if my lane partner asks for it, sona when I feel a bit more defensive or aoe comp but still play her very offensive, always pressuring with q and passive. Even when I play soraka, i only enjoy her on a comp like cait or urgot that allows me to be always under their turret denying them cs, spam e on the adc and let him harass them out of lane.
Ali is still very very very strong, easily the strongest support still imo. you can still combo really easily, he isnt weak by any means. do play alot of blitz, and now leona though. shes so faceroll if your adc isnt totally retarded
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On November 12 2012 07:19 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 06:01 NpG)Explosive wrote:On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing? You can add lulu to your list and I wouldn't play nidalee and morgana as support. y I play lulu when she's free but didnt bought her yet. idk why i put morgana on the list, was just looking at champ list, i dont play her in ranked as support either. lux also top tier or not worth it?
Lux is hit or miss, but really great if your comp is already poke heavy or you have Corki, Ez or Graves as your ADC. My advise would be to learn Leona, she's really cool because she allows you to go BALLS DEEP and has the most convenient form of (teamfight)initiation out of any support other than Blitz.
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Just finished a blind I joined upon an invitation from a friend. Since she plays support I decided to go with Draven, to train him a bit.
Enemy team; Jarvan top, Eve jungle, Katarina mid, Ashe+Renekton bot.
I'll just say that with Morde mid and GP in our jungle, that game was far from the way I enjoyed the most. Also one of those were I clicked the least.
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On November 12 2012 08:04 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 07:59 misirlou wrote:On November 12 2012 07:32 Thereisnosaurus wrote:On November 12 2012 05:39 misirlou wrote:
Guys im going to play in a college tournament (first time 5 of us gona play together, just for fun but im quite tryhard player xD) as support and I was wondering what the best addition to my pool is.
Currently i play Ali, blitz, janna, morgana, nunu, sona, soraka, taric. I have nidalee which i dont play a lot, and I recently bought leona and im on the process of learning her. Is zyra that good as a support and should i start saving up for and learn her? Any other crucial I am missing? Leona is a fantastic support, she adds so much to team fighting compositions, it's like having an ammumu on your team. Her only disadvantage is you *have* to coordinate very well with your ADC and exert pressure on your lane or she's really awful. Thankfully she poops on every other support as far as sheer capability for havoc goes, so it isn't hard, but you need your team to play in such a way that their mid and jungle can't punish you for heavy pressure and zoning. That means - run leona with strongly pushing mids - run leona with control junglers like nunu and maoki who can establish/clear ward presence early on and maintain that - Ideally run leona with long ranged AOE teammates like xerath and zyra to immediately blow her passive on teams you catch with your ult or zenith blade, or teammates who can allow a support to initiate very hard while popping the passive as well such as oriana and zilean. You seem to be comfortable with the more agressive/CC/bursty supports, leona is like them only she allows no mistakes. You can't max heal like you can on taric or ali. You gotta blow them fuckers up. yeah i play mostly aggressive supports. Mostly blitz and nunu lately, ali before the nerf, some taric if my lane partner asks for it, sona when I feel a bit more defensive or aoe comp but still play her very offensive, always pressuring with q and passive. Even when I play soraka, i only enjoy her on a comp like cait or urgot that allows me to be always under their turret denying them cs, spam e on the adc and let him harass them out of lane. Ali is still very very very strong, easily the strongest support still imo. you can still combo really easily, he isnt weak by any means. do play alot of blitz, and now leona though. shes so faceroll if your adc isnt totally retarded
Yes, I still play ali a lot, just not as much. Like I swapped him and nunu on my preference list. His peeling and cc is still insane and he has the biggest dive potential of the supports, that R is broken :D
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EPT
