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On January 03 2012 15:44 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 15:28 ControlMonkey wrote:
I played a normal game where I picked vayne after someone else picks Janna. So of course the rest of the team picked Ashe MF and twitch. I guess that's what I get for alt-tabbing during champ selection.
That's some awesome troll picks right there. 5 thornmails and randuins later I as vayne was the only one doing serious damage. Turned out to be a fun game though. The other team was too bad to finish us off, so it was a 55 minute long game, where they constantly fought 4v5.
So troll picks are mainly about picking a role your team already has. And Evelyn.
Edit: just played a game as karthus mid vs kass and just got shat on. Zoned me all day with his orb, turret dived me for the kill and just ults out. Unpleasant experience. Anyway, I always read here that ranged ad counters kass mid. Can someone explain exactly how/why? Kassadin specializes in dominating AP carries (exactly what happened to you). Obviously, AP carriers rely on spells more than AAs while AD carries are the exact opposite. So throw someone like Caitlyn mid against Kassadin and what happens? Kass tries to farm, Cait shoots him in the face to deny him all day. Kass shoots Q at her? Ok, she'll take the damage and continue shooting you in the face. In other words, they shut down Kassadin and zone him entirely if they play aggressive enough. Best thing Kass can do is last hit with Q and last hit at turret. I've beaten trist mid before, but this Trist was really bad. Didn't use rocket jump to get in my face and just let me Q her constantly eventually leading to me bursting her down.
Just...unless you're that guy that's going to be playing the counter to Kass, always ban him in solo queue. Especially at low elo. You can't trust your teammates to be at all competent. If you can believe it, I once had a teammate go 0/5 against Kass as Talon. >.<
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On January 03 2012 15:54 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Is it ever a good idea to build bloodrazor on an AD carry? I was playing trist in a ranked game and got really fed and dominated bot. I had IE by 16 min but the other team's Irelia was also fed and went after me in every team fight. I had IE + PD but no tank so I spent an entire team fight running from her and the enemy nocturne while my team got destroyed by the enemy Vayne. Would bloodrazor be more useful than a PD in this situation where bruisers with atmog, triforce or FM tunnel vision you?
Math on Madred's vs a Bloodthirster:
the guys you normally will want to be hitting with madreds (bruisers) will have 3000-4000 health and 200 mr/armour. So Madred's procs will get you around 40-56 damage per hit - or less against targets with more mr.
For a flat comparison, assuming that you have PD/IE/LW as your 'core' items, and standard runes/masteries, a bloodthirster with 0-40 stacks will crit 64% of the time for 260% damage (more with green pot) will have an average multiplier of 2.024 so will hit for 121-202 before the armour; considering standard 21/46% apen 200 armour becomes ~100 (a little less) so the damage becomes 60-100. Which is right back where we started, lol.
Of course madreds also gives you 30 ad = 30 ad so your actually getting 70-86 damage a hit against the bruiser. Which is very similar, huh. Of course Madred's also gives you 40% as + 25 arm while a bloodthirster gives you 15-25% lifesteal.
That's basically the most favourable situation for madred's though. Against a squishy with 100 arm/mr and 2000 health madreds gets you ~82 damage/hit and BT will get you 84-140. Against a serious tank (eg rammus) with 350 arm/mr and 4000 hp madreds will get you ~55 damage and BT will get you ~40-66.
Huh. I'm actually genuinely surprised that the damage is pretty consistently comparable. I wouldn't have expected that. Could someone check my math here? Also criticism of the assumed circumstances would be nice.
But if I'm right and the damage is comparable then the pros of each when built after zerks/PD/IE/LW would be: (stars on the ones I think are most important)
Madred's
***40% attack speed
25 Armour
substantially helps dps baron
more reliable damage (ie dont lose stacks on death)
Bloodthirster
***15-25% lifesteal
a LOT more ad for scaling abilities
cheaper, especially if you already build a vamp scepter
stacks better off other sources of crit (though thats' probably only 8% from agility elixir unless you build TF/PD#2)
better damage when you have full stacks
maybe strictly better against squishies despite the AS from madred's, especially with stacks
SO I still am not convinced that Madred's is a good item on ADs but it doesnt look nearly as bad as I thought it was; 40% attack speed is pretty awesome though many characters already have a ton of it. On the other hand if you don't get a BT late game then you won't have lifesteal, though you dont always need it if you can sit in the back and not get focused like a caitlyn or a kog. Also you might get lifesteal from a stark's.
Anyways thats just what I'm looking at having done the math (hopefully accurately though I'd appreciate a double check). I think its a fair comparison between madred's and BT; the core of IE/PD/LW is a normal starting point so... I don't know. I started up just assuming I'd do the math and find Madred's to be much worse; when I found it wasn't I just kpet thinking about it and writing as I thought. What do all y'all think then?
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I Will Dominate is a really annoying kid to play with.
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Mundo is so underrated here, I bet none of you ever been up against a mundo top who pressed E and just autod you at lvl1.
He has 100 AD at lvl1 without runes or masteries, he can do very well top against a lot of champs.
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Anyone noticed the numbers on wukong's ultimate. It goes from 20/110/200 (with a 1.2 total ad ratio).
In practice its fine but just looking at it makes you do a double take when at level one it only has a 20 damage base.
@Jackdino
Thats about the extent of mundos laning though if hes building ad. If you have any sort of ranged skill you can just keep kiting him or better yet, if you are ranged you just automatically win the lane against him.
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On January 03 2012 18:15 dignity wrote:
Thats about the extent of mundos laning though if hes building ad. If you have any sort of ranged skill you can just keep kiting him or better yet, if you are ranged you just automatically win the lane against him.
Thing is, that can be said about a lot of top lanes. But Mundo also has cleaver, and he's the only one that can stop a backdooring yi.
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On January 03 2012 17:40 Ferrose wrote:
If you can believe it, I once had a teammate go 0/5 against Kass as Talon. >.<
I always beat Talon with Kass.
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A lot of tops also have speed steroids or gap closers. Cleavers are also a skillshot that can be tanked by minions so you can hide behind them.
This is pretty much the same as ad sion. Sure he can get enrage and just auto you. He also has a stun compared to a skill shot slow. His ultimate can also be used to bait and is very good at keeping himself alive.
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On January 03 2012 18:25 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 17:40 Ferrose wrote:
If you can believe it, I once had a teammate go 0/5 against Kass as Talon. >.< I always beat Talon with Kass.
Your Kass is OP therefore doesn't count when talking about balance 
Not sure why people keep talking that Mundo is non-viable champion... Just like Olaf he can build tanky and still have nice damage output. Just stop trying to play him as if he was a bruiser with a gap closer.
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My gap closer comparison was my argument to his statement that a lot of top lane bruisers are melee auto attackers. Having a gap closer makes your effective range much bigger and so you have a significant advantage because of it. Also, mundo is in a bit of a strange spot where he scales with almost nothing. This puts him in a situation that just makes you wonder why play mundo when you can just play [insert champ here that plays the role you are trying to fit mundo into better].
Mundo is just another victim of powercreep (I can't remember the last time he was changed).
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Iunno. Looking at Mundo's skills on paper they all seem really solid, except for maybe his ulti. Cleaver is sick harass, costs a ton of hp, but his passive/runes can help. CC reduction is always op. His E is basically 100% uptime free AD. But for some reason, in practice it never seems to do well. I have literally never ever seen a Mundo do well in normals or ranked past lvl like 25~. He can help your team snowball since cleaver is a permaslow so cleaning up is really easy, but I've never seen a Mundo make a difference in a game. :\
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9871 Posts
I think he's just terrible, closest thing to a troll pick you can get. I have no idea how kmax even stays 1400s playing nothing but mundo. No scaling whatsoever, E is not a particularly good steroid, Q becomes irrelevant as soon as your target has a negatron, W is like lol bad. He's not even a good twisted treeline pick, I don't care what people say, he probably hasn't been for like a year. I can name ten heroes off the top of my head I'd rather pick.
I wouldn't nut over 100 damage steroid, compare to irelia who has 75 true damage steroid and a dash and better cc and is almost as tanky and has better lane sustain. whatttttt
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Every once in awhile Chauster tries to play Mundo and usually does okay in lane but is completely worthless as the game progresses.
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On January 03 2012 18:13 JackDino wrote:
Mundo is so underrated here, I bet none of you ever been up against a mundo top who pressed E and just autod you at lvl1.
He has 100 AD at lvl1 without runes or masteries, he can do very well top against a lot of champs.
i guess the main thing is, (and this is coming from someone who loathes GP) why play mundo when you can play GP?
cleaver compared to parrrley -> both slow on hit, cleaver more damage, parrrley can crit, parrrley isn't a skillshot
mundoAOE compared to oranges -> both reduce cc, oranges remove suppression, mundos does damage but takes HP instead of healing
mundo's AD compared to pirate's morale -> both give AD, pirates gives teamwide buff and movespeed
ults can't really be compared, they're both good situationally, but i think it's a given that pirate's ult is better
mundo can go tankier but it's not as if pirate builds glass cannon, and pirate scales better IMO
then again, i see pirate in every single game and i'm really tired of him, so i'd love to see some people play mundo instead (anyone besides kmax9)
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The thing is, Mundo is NOT a bad champ contary to popular belief, not even when the game goes on(You get 100 free ad and free cc reduction for christ's sake), you can build HP and still do dmg, you can build resists and still do damage, you can build attackspeed/crit and do so much more damage.
There are quite a few people who enjoy playing mundo and saying he's a troll pick is just unfair. I'd rather have a good Mundo who knows what he's doing over any of the decent popular picks any day.
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On January 03 2012 18:53 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 18:13 JackDino wrote:
Mundo is so underrated here, I bet none of you ever been up against a mundo top who pressed E and just autod you at lvl1.
He has 100 AD at lvl1 without runes or masteries, he can do very well top against a lot of champs. i guess the main thing is, (and this is coming from someone who loathes GP) why play mundo when you can play GP? (...)
That's finally a valid point. Of course the answer is simple: because you may enjoy Mundo more than GP. I can agree that there are better champ picks than mundo but i don't get why people call him unviable, but maybe we just have different definitions of "viable"
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On January 03 2012 18:51 UniversalSnip wrote:
No scaling whatsoever, E is not a particularly good steroid
100 Free AD is incredible(even more if you're low on hp), sure irelia gets 75 true damage but it can't crit and isn't permanently up, with some CDR mundo E is always up. It's not about Mundo vs Irelia though, it's about Mundo not being a troll pick.
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On January 03 2012 19:15 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 18:53 deskscaress wrote:On January 03 2012 18:13 JackDino wrote:
Mundo is so underrated here, I bet none of you ever been up against a mundo top who pressed E and just autod you at lvl1.
He has 100 AD at lvl1 without runes or masteries, he can do very well top against a lot of champs. i guess the main thing is, (and this is coming from someone who loathes GP) why play mundo when you can play GP? (...) That's finally a valid point. Of course the answer is simple: because you may enjoy Mundo more than GP. I can agree that there are better champ picks than mundo but i don't get why people call him unviable, but maybe we just have different definitions of "viable"
i don't think mundo is unviable or even a troll pick, he's just not as good as pretty much most other champs, both in lane and in actual utility
and if the goal of ranked games is first to win, second to have fun winning, it just makes more sense to play traditionally "better" champs to achieve the first goal, unless you're gosu mundopro and can achieve the first even "gimping" yourself
make his W slow and he would probably be a pretty competitive pick
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On January 03 2012 18:51 UniversalSnip wrote:
I think he's just terrible, closest thing to a troll pick you can get. I have no idea how kmax even stays 1400s playing nothing but mundo. No scaling whatsoever, E is not a particularly good steroid, Q becomes irrelevant as soon as your target has a negatron, W is like lol bad. He's not even a good twisted treeline pick, I don't care what people say, he probably hasn't been for like a year. I can name ten heroes off the top of my head I'd rather pick.
I wouldn't nut over 100 damage steroid, compare to irelia who has 75 true damage steroid and a dash and better cc and is almost as tanky and has better lane sustain. whatttttt
Been ages since i played alot of TT, but he used to be really really strong.
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EPT
