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On January 03 2012 07:52 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 07:46 mr_tolkien wrote:On January 03 2012 07:41 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 07:23 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 06:46 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 06:45 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 06:43 Shikyo wrote:
^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1. Saying a skillshot is hard to land is not really a great argument for the matchup, that's a case of bad vs good player. It's like saying swain loses lane to everyone because his W is hard to land. dotdotdot There's different kinds of delayed AoE skillshots. There's Veigars W that I don't get hit by. There's Brands W that I do get hit by. Swain is one of the easy-to-avoid ones. They're not all the same. Also, I think it IS a great argument if it indeed is possible to reaction-dodge instead of having to mindgame dodge. For instance, you don't base your Veigar laning around landing Dark Matters without a stun, now do you? Why? Because it can be reaction-dodged. Not really wanting to bring in elo into this because mine is pretty meh aswell but swains @ 1400 are exactly there because they can't hit their skillshots. I know plenty of high elo swain players who have no problem landing their W, and you can always Q first for an easy W. Veigar dark matter has a much longer delay. Brand's W is smaller so it should be harder to land than swain W. Then its very strange that Brands have no problems landing Ws and brands are all bad, I guess it just must be so that Brands are just better players Brand's W is deceptively large. It's easy to land it on innocent targets because of this weird perspective... Brand W is smaller than swain W, this is a fact.
It has a shorter delay, though, which is pretty critical. Swain's W is one of the slower skills of its type, along with rupture.
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On January 03 2012 03:12 Blyf wrote:
Spinesheath raises an interesting question based on a logical disparity between the item choices for supports and for other roles. He bases his standpoint entirely on logical reasoning, and invites anyone to dispute his logic. The gist of Spine's original query: "if it works on supports because it is cost effective, why does it not work on any other role?" still stands.
He really didn't. It's the same tired argument with obstinate "logic" he's been spouting for ages. He was going out of his way to troll by that point.
On January 03 2012 03:22 JackDino wrote:
If a 10/5/5 EZ has trouble with a 5/5/5 vayne then he either bought really really dumb items(shit like manamune comes to mind) or he didn't cs as much, or he is bad. That said however, a 5/5/5 vayne can deal with any stronger AD because of that stupid ult. Not 5 kills though.
Shouldn't think of them fighting in a vacuum because it doesn't happen. It's not going to be a 1v1 in the middle of an open lane.
On January 03 2012 03:49 JackDino wrote:
You have a 3sec cd 1100 range ability and a free flash to deal with range, most other carries don't have those.
You lose a lot of damage using E just to flash away.
On January 03 2012 06:13 BlackMagister wrote:
Well in a game last night Doublelift and Saint were carried by a Poppy who was laning vs a Tryndamere. Saint kept commenting that he had forgotten how strong Poppy is. Her passive seems really good vs Trynd's crits too.
Poppy's passive is pretty OP just like her ult. She's one of the champs I hope never becomes viable.
On January 03 2012 07:29 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 07:28 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 07:26 Kenpachi wrote:On January 03 2012 06:47 NotSorry wrote:
what ap mids counter ahri? Malzahar and Ryze I dunno if malz counters her really, he can push but Ahri should never get ulted in pool. trust me. Ahri cant even touch you
What will most likely happen is that Ahri will W and ult in dealing ~1/3 of your hp instantly, then you'll try to WER or ER her, but she'll throw out her taunt at that same moment instantly cancelling your ult and then you'll die. Should you try and wait until after taunt ends to combo you'll still die. Same problem Malz has with most mages these days.
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Wait until free week and try him out to see if you like him or not.
On January 03 2012 08:44 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 07:52 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 07:46 mr_tolkien wrote:On January 03 2012 07:41 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 07:23 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 06:46 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 06:45 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 06:43 Shikyo wrote:
^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1. Saying a skillshot is hard to land is not really a great argument for the matchup, that's a case of bad vs good player. It's like saying swain loses lane to everyone because his W is hard to land. dotdotdot There's different kinds of delayed AoE skillshots. There's Veigars W that I don't get hit by. There's Brands W that I do get hit by. Swain is one of the easy-to-avoid ones. They're not all the same. Also, I think it IS a great argument if it indeed is possible to reaction-dodge instead of having to mindgame dodge. For instance, you don't base your Veigar laning around landing Dark Matters without a stun, now do you? Why? Because it can be reaction-dodged. Not really wanting to bring in elo into this because mine is pretty meh aswell but swains @ 1400 are exactly there because they can't hit their skillshots. I know plenty of high elo swain players who have no problem landing their W, and you can always Q first for an easy W. Veigar dark matter has a much longer delay. Brand's W is smaller so it should be harder to land than swain W. Then its very strange that Brands have no problems landing Ws and brands are all bad, I guess it just must be so that Brands are just better players Brand's W is deceptively large. It's easy to land it on innocent targets because of this weird perspective... Brand W is smaller than swain W, this is a fact. It has a shorter delay, though, which is pretty critical. Swain's W is one of the slower skills of its type, along with rupture.
While this is true, Swain also has a slow.
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Teehee on stream just now, Hotshot in the latest teambattle ran around as gangplank for about 10 seconds, then flashed over the wall after his team was dead and bursts down a soraka and goes "so who fucked that up???" even though he could have deald a ton more damage if he just went in right away
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On January 03 2012 09:01 Shikyo wrote:
Teehee on stream just now, Hotshot in the latest teambattle ran around as gangplank for about 10 seconds, then flashed over the wall after his team was dead and bursts down a soraka and goes "so who fucked that up???" even though he could have deald a ton more damage if he just went in right away
Who else but hotshot
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About Viktor... apart from the post there, and some ranting about a Gragas that utterly destroyed me w/o even playing good (short range + pathetic mana sustain made it a cakewalk for him even tho his plan was ult in my general direction then mash all buttons where I was sent).
So: weak laning against current meta mid because his base damage aren't that good, plus he cant harass properly (I'm running mp5/level yellows to make things worse). I'll try tweaking masteries for a 21-0-9 with mana/mp5 utility setup.
Easily outpushed, has a hard time keeping up with both AP and mana needed to lazor effectively (augment:death + leveling E first make him a good pusher, but it's still costly and you won't rush the augment so the first levels are hard).
Also the kind of comfort you get from leveling Q first is non-existant if you go for E first since you'll shield about 20 damage for along, long time.
Actually "bursts" quite well when upgrading Death and going for an AP build, but you'll be a candidate for getting 100-0'd.
In teamfights, he's vulnerable because of his short range, except if you want to only poke with E and run the risk of having people go away from your ult's AoE (since it travels slowlier if you aren't near).
W/o Gravity augment, your stun is a defensive measure, or counter-initiating, but the 1.5s delay feels really, really long in this context (I often get blown up because I eat a cc while the marks get applied and somebody that stayed out of the ult dps me to death). The delay in applying the damage (travel time of Q and the tip of E) also make spellvamp a lot less useful against bursts, because those few seconds will count to determine whether you heal in time or not.
Also, because of this, I rarely managed to get kills, even when going for a full-out AP build, netting me support/tank scores.
TL;DR:
+ fun and original kit, same with passive
+ a lot of utility
+ short CDs at high levels allowing for more-or-less sustained dps
+ high skill ceiling thanks to the way laser is casted + placement of ult
- utility conditioned by items (Gravity augment, Rylai)
- inferior to Swain, Cass, Ryze in terms of sustained dps
- really weak numbers in key areas (mana, base damage)
- short-ranged, abilities' damage applied with delay -> same with healing and shield
- builds are to determine because of the several orientations possible + core taking a slot
PS: I know the tl:dr is long, but there's also the linked post in it.
And please notice that I'm often forced to mid with him, while I consider him a solotop champ, same as Swain and Ryze.
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Imo, ryze is at a disadvantage when laning vs ahri, though ryze is still bs and you are still strong in teamfights even if you get raped in lane. Malz doesn't really have anything special and isn't even remotely a counter. If you wanna do well vs ahri in lane pick champions like sion, xerath, vlad and kennen, maybe annie if you're good with her, good cassiopeias should also do well.
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On January 03 2012 10:16 Cloud wrote:
Imo, ryze is at a disadvantage when laning vs ahri, though ryze is still bs and you are still strong in teamfights even if you get raped in lane. Malz doesn't really have anything special and isn't even remotely a counter. If you wanna do well vs ahri in lane pick champions like sion, xerath, vlad and kennen, maybe annie if you're good with her, good cassiopeias should also do well.
malz does well because he pushes really easily and mana-efficiently. his silence also neuters combos, altho it can be hard to hit. not to mention voidlings do a million dps early game.
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Thanks a lot for the Viktor layout man =) I think based on your post I'll get him, when it comes down to it I have most of the really competetive characters I need on most roles so fun characters are what I'm getting now, and he seems to be a good amount of fun. Plus it's always nice to get to play heroes that are slightly underplayed, which is what I'm guessing this guy will be =)
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On January 03 2012 05:43 Shikyo wrote:
Meh, Swain gets completely humiliated by Viktor and that says something already
Viktor is an awful champion. Definitely in need of a buff.
His spells are complete shit simply because they have no range other than E. You wanna trade with Q? Pretty much every champion will either hit you before the spell comes back to you or simply outrange you. W for the stun/slow? Range is trash. E is a great ability though, can definitely admit that. Ult is pretty solid if you can manage to land it right on top of them and then chase them with it.
Swain is going to simply outrange, outsustain, and outdamage Viktor. Swain is basically an AP assassin thanks to W+E+Q+Ult+Ignite. Amazing first blood potential. Viktor isn't going to do shit against him.
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How do Gargas and Hiemer fair against Ahri mid?
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On January 03 2012 10:34 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 05:43 Shikyo wrote:
Meh, Swain gets completely humiliated by Viktor and that says something already Viktor is an awful champion. Definitely in need of a buff. His spells are complete shit simply because they have no range other than E. You wanna trade with Q? Pretty much every champion will either hit you before the spell comes back to you or simply outrange you. W for the stun/slow? Range is trash. E is a great ability though, can definitely admit that. Ult is pretty solid if you can manage to land it right on top of them and then chase them with it. Swain is going to simply outrange, outsustain, and outdamage Viktor. Swain is basically an AP assassin thanks to W+E+Q+Ult+Ignite. Amazing first blood potential. Viktor isn't going to do shit against him.
E would be great, but it has like 3 different bugs that make it deal 0 damage.
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On January 03 2012 10:34 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 05:43 Shikyo wrote:
Meh, Swain gets completely humiliated by Viktor and that says something already Viktor is an awful champion. Definitely in need of a buff. His spells are complete shit simply because they have no range other than E. You wanna trade with Q? Pretty much every champion will either hit you before the spell comes back to you or simply outrange you. W for the stun/slow? Range is trash. E is a great ability though, can definitely admit that. Ult is pretty solid if you can manage to land it right on top of them and then chase them with it. Swain is going to simply outrange, outsustain, and outdamage Viktor. Swain is basically an AP assassin thanks to W+E+Q+Ult+Ignite. Amazing first blood potential. Viktor isn't going to do shit against him.
Nah Viktor just spams Q and Swains dots deal 0 dmg (viktor def needs a buff though, range increase on both Q and W and a range increase on E(width) would go a long way
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From the few streams that have actually played him (including phreak lolz) his E seems to have very narrow hitbox and kinda slow to get casted. Damage potential sure is there if you level and augment it up though. His Q seems lackluster, his ult interesting and the stunzone is cool but short range again so it always seemed better as just defense under his own feet when someone is ripping his mechanical limbs off.
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On January 03 2012 10:16 Cloud wrote:
Imo, ryze is at a disadvantage when laning vs ahri, though ryze is still bs and you are still strong in teamfights even if you get raped in lane. Malz doesn't really have anything special and isn't even remotely a counter. If you wanna do well vs ahri in lane pick champions like sion, xerath, vlad and kennen, maybe annie if you're good with her, good cassiopeias should also do well.
Ryze lane is funny because you don't even have to "win" the lane. So long as you don't die in lane, which is easy, if you get farmed it's pretty much gg because of how strong late game Ryze is compared to most other APs including Ahri. Like I'd much rather have Ryze at 25 minutes than Ahri and I don't think the lane is so skewed that Ahri can definitely win it. I don't play much Ryze but when someone on my team does I just remember that so long as they don't get completely shit on in lane, which is rare, he's going to be a monster.
Is Viktor's Q shield really all that strong? 40% damage done shield sounds pretty solid but I can't imagine any AP, including Swain, not eating through the shield to still do damage. Is the shield based off the damage of the spell or the damage it does after resists?
edit:
Shield is prior to resists so at level 6 if you max Q, before runes/masteries, Q will shield for 72 damage. You're still gonna eat a ton of damage from APs.
The shield on Viktor's levle 3 Q is worse than level 1 Lux, Morgana, or Orianna shield.
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question for any experienced players, is Karth a viable champ to main in solo/duo and try to carry games? up until what rating would you say that *you* (assuming you play him) could effectively carry your team easily?
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On January 03 2012 11:01 overt wrote:
Ryze lane is funny because you don't even have to "win" the lane. So long as you don't die in lane, which is easy, if you get farmed it's pretty much gg because of how strong late game Ryze is compared to most other APs including Ahri. Like I'd much rather have Ryze at 25 minutes than Ahri and I don't think the lane is so skewed that Ahri can definitely win it. I don't play much Ryze but when someone on my team does I just remember that so long as they don't get completely shit on in lane, which is rare, he's going to be a monster.
I just played a game where I went 0/4 in lane as Ryze and then ended up 12/5. #1 balanced.
And forget double WotA, Ryze + WotA is just as scary
On January 03 2012 11:16 Vei wrote:
question for any experienced players, is Karth a viable champ to main in solo/duo and try to carry games? up until what rating would you say that *you* (assuming you play him) could effectively carry your team easily?
I'd say Karthus is good at every Elo and extremely viable.
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United States37500 Posts
Karth is almost as good of an AP carry as you would want. He doesn't really have bad matchups and he's superb late game. If you can play him at a proficient level (e.g. like a pdiz or PhantomL0rd), he can carry you to Plat easily.
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So, i don't want to start up the debate again, but my view is that gp10 are worse on ad and ap mid because they make up a smaller percentage of their gold income, than on supports. I.e. Gp10 gives support 20 percent extra income or whatever, whereas it gives mid and ad only a 5 percent boost
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Just tried two more games with Viktor (one mid, one solotop) and I'm sold: E first is a no-brainer, the pushing power's too good and it makes harass and mana more manageable as long as you don't spam it (plus with 21 offense masteries and ap/level blues, flat ap quints, I hit a lot of timings when going RoA where the laser will leave caster minions with but a few hp, making last hitting harder if I cast it early on).
I also got the 7 points of mana/mp5 masteries in the utility tree, helped some too. Having to do all that just to get a decent laning still makes me think he needs some buffs.
Also, I did fine top vs GP, but because of the way his stun works, and the delay, I think Viktor wouldn't be as much at ease against champs with a gap closer, like Xin.
For reference, the main starter builds I tried are boots+3->RoA->Gravity and boots+3 or sapphire+2 -> codex->Death (codex becoming a Morello later on).
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EPT
