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On January 03 2012 06:10 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:02 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 05:53 overt wrote:On January 03 2012 05:43 Shikyo wrote:
Meh, Swain gets completely humiliated by Viktor and that says something already I haven't played that lane yet. I don't really see how though. There are definitely champs that can be tricky for Swain mid like Morgana or Xerath (everyone has trouble with them though) but I think he can handle pretty much every other AP without getting shit on. Just sayin', I hear people say that he's weak against other APs and I just don't really see it. Maybe if you can't hit snare you'll do bad. But you have a 900 range AoE snare and hitting it first lets you easily E+Q them for a metric fuckton of damage. Not to mention you really don't run out of mana ever pre-6 and only run low post-6 if you have to pop ult a lot. Really easy to avoid fights as Swain if they won't benefit you though and it's really easy to start fights that will benefit you. Viktor Qs -> Swain deals no dmg because of the shield. Repeat. At lvl 6 Viktor kills swain immediately if he's below 80%. How is Viktor going to hit him with a 600 range Q when Swain has a 900 range snare? Swain E also outranges his Q, so I'm pretty sure you could just snare + E and then walk away. Again, I haven't played the match up but like most AP mids against Swain it probably comes down entirely to how well Swain plays. When I see most Swains lose mid it's usually because they try to play it like it's a melee lane and hit E->Q->W for easy snares and more overall damage. Against APs I think it's way smarter to just hit W first and then get in an EQ. If someone chooses to fight you after snare is done they're retarded because they're going to eat a full Q while under the effects of Swain E. You do less damage opening with W instead of E but it's way safer and works really well against lots of AP mids.
Well I've played that matchup 3 times and never got hit by the snare. Either way it's like a 22 second cooldown and after the snare is used you're open to like 4 free Qs and if you close in after the snare you're open for a EQ
By the way you speak as if its about the Swains skills to land a W but as said, I've never been hit by it before lvl 6 as I start boots first vs Swain. Every game the lane's started with Swain exchanging E with my Q and dealing a total of like 20 dmg while I deal around 100 and then he gets shitscared and denied really early on. No idea what a lvl 1 W helps as if you want to deal any actual dmg with your other spells you need to get hit by EQ and when you do, the Q is going to negate most of the DoT again.
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That must be one of the few exceptions because Swain's damage isn't "instant" (I guess Xerath can count if he tries to EQ you, you'll get stunned but shield the Q), which is also why I find him "weak" against burst APs. Not saying he can't do well, but his spells aren't exactly free and W's cd is huge early on. I feel like he can't trade that well against champs with equal or better range than him (which is a lot) w/o hitting W because they'll just break the tether and flee form your AAs once they'll have unloaded their shit.
Perhaps I'm not playing him aggressive enough tho, with more Ws for the full combo I'd get harassed less because they'd have a lot less health top. But I prefer him top anyway.
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re: Ez from a couple of pages ago
I think one of the keys to keeping Ez relevant lategame is to land good Ws. 40% attack speed is huge but a lot of people only cast it to push down towers and stuff.
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Malphite Ezreal and a frozenheart tossed in there whenever somebody tries to pull Vayne or Tryndamere on you?
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Oh and about the lvl 6 insta-killing, Viktor with my 21 offensive masteries and full AP runes at lvl 6 has around 59 AP, you can flash-ulti and there's no way Swain can react because the ulti instantly silences, after that you have easily enough time to do ignite(increasing your AP to 64), E, Q, and after that Swain should be dead. That's from my experience, anyway. You only need to land a single Q before that combo in order to get Swain to the instakill percentage, and there's no way Swain would be at full hp at lvl 5 anyway unless you are for some unknown reason playing way too passive or he's towerhugging and getting denied.
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On January 03 2012 06:19 Alaric wrote:
Malphite Ezreal and a frozenheart tossed in there whenever somebody tries to pull Vayne or Tryndamere on you?
and Randuin's. and maybe a support Nunu 
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On January 03 2012 06:14 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:10 overt wrote:On January 03 2012 06:02 Shikyo wrote:On January 03 2012 05:53 overt wrote:On January 03 2012 05:43 Shikyo wrote:
Meh, Swain gets completely humiliated by Viktor and that says something already I haven't played that lane yet. I don't really see how though. There are definitely champs that can be tricky for Swain mid like Morgana or Xerath (everyone has trouble with them though) but I think he can handle pretty much every other AP without getting shit on. Just sayin', I hear people say that he's weak against other APs and I just don't really see it. Maybe if you can't hit snare you'll do bad. But you have a 900 range AoE snare and hitting it first lets you easily E+Q them for a metric fuckton of damage. Not to mention you really don't run out of mana ever pre-6 and only run low post-6 if you have to pop ult a lot. Really easy to avoid fights as Swain if they won't benefit you though and it's really easy to start fights that will benefit you. Viktor Qs -> Swain deals no dmg because of the shield. Repeat. At lvl 6 Viktor kills swain immediately if he's below 80%. How is Viktor going to hit him with a 600 range Q when Swain has a 900 range snare? Swain E also outranges his Q, so I'm pretty sure you could just snare + E and then walk away. Again, I haven't played the match up but like most AP mids against Swain it probably comes down entirely to how well Swain plays. When I see most Swains lose mid it's usually because they try to play it like it's a melee lane and hit E->Q->W for easy snares and more overall damage. Against APs I think it's way smarter to just hit W first and then get in an EQ. If someone chooses to fight you after snare is done they're retarded because they're going to eat a full Q while under the effects of Swain E. You do less damage opening with W instead of E but it's way safer and works really well against lots of AP mids. Well I've played that matchup 3 times and never got hit by the snare. Either way it's like a 22 second cooldown and after the snare is used you're open to like 4 free Qs and if you close in after the snare you're open for a EQ By the way you speak as if its about the Swains skills to land a W but as said, I've never been hit by it before lvl 6 as I start boots first vs Swain. Every game the lane's started with Swain exchanging E with my Q and dealing a total of like 20 dmg while I deal around 100 and then he gets shitscared and denied really early on. No idea what a lvl 1 W helps as if you want to deal any actual dmg with your other spells you need to get hit by EQ and when you do, the Q is going to negate most of the DoT again.
I haven't played the match up at all yet so I won't comment beyond this. Hitting Swain W is just like hitting any other skill shot, it's all about predicting where the opponent will go and how they'll react to it. It's as much about Swain's skill as it is your opponent. I would probably snare and then EQ a Viktor, not just E him. Was just saying that snare + E would be free harass with no repercussions. I haven't played the match up but I can't imagine W->E->Q going poorly for Swain.
Yeah, you keep W at level 1 and I'm assuming you max Q first on Viktor so I could see where it would become a problem. Still, pre-6 you're only going to get two-three Qs in between Swain W cooldown and that's assuming Viktor charges you to Q every time it's off CD.
edit:
Again, I've not played the match up, I just find it hard to believe that there's a champion that shits on Swain as hard as you're implying. Like, really, you hit 6 and Swain dies? If true then Viktor is more powerful than release Orianna.
double edit:
Yeah, I'm not advocating, "run Swain mid," as I think he's way stronger top. EQW is the ideal combo as you'll do more damage and it happens to shit all over melee champs. But hitting WEQ against an AP in mid is a lot of damage. To a point where they can't realistically trade with you until W is back up off cooldown.
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^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1.
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On January 03 2012 06:43 Shikyo wrote:
^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1.
Saying a skillshot is hard to land is not really a great argument for the matchup, that's a case of bad vs good player.
It's like saying swain loses lane to everyone because his W is hard to land.
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On January 03 2012 06:45 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:43 Shikyo wrote:
^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1. Saying a skillshot is hard to land is not really a great argument for the matchup, that's a case of bad vs good player. It's like saying swain loses lane to everyone because his W is hard to land.
dotdotdot
There's different kinds of delayed AoE skillshots. There's Veigars W that I don't get hit by. There's Brands W that I do get hit by. Swain is one of the easy-to-avoid ones. They're not all the same.
Also, I think it IS a great argument if it indeed is possible to reaction-dodge instead of having to mindgame dodge.
For instance, you don't base your Veigar laning around landing Dark Matters without a stun, now do you? Why? Because it can be reaction-dodged.
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what ap mids counter ahri?
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0K, Gragas > Viktor. It's so unfair it doesn't even require that much skill from the Gragas. Can't outpush even with cata rush and lazor first because you don't have mana, and you can't harass him effectively because of W. Plus his base damage and burst's better than yours.
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On January 03 2012 06:13 BlackMagister wrote:
Well in a game last night Doublelift and Saint were carried by a Poppy who was laning vs a Tryndamere. Saint kept commenting that he had forgotten how strong Poppy is. Her passive seems really good vs Trynd's crits too.
Yeah, but majority of poppy lane match up sucks balls. trynd is oen of the few exceptiosn.
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On January 03 2012 01:51 Two_DoWn wrote:
People played ez and he sucked back then too. You look at the stats from those tournaments and he barely won games compared to anyone else.
The real problem was that people jumped from the corki bandwagon to ezreal, even though corki was still better than ez. Just one of those irrational things where people jump from someone who got nerfed and dont play him for a few months.
this is how I see the timeline too. The two heroes are very comparable. 1) corki is broken as fuck after some consistency buffs like ad scaling on his missiles, dominates everything for months and months and months, literally the best any ranged carry has been since i started playing with xin patch, better than release vayne. Ezreal is fun garbage. 2) riot nerfs corki really really hard, he is still better than ezreal but nobody wants to play him anymore. 3) riot buffs corki, making him really good, then buffs him again a little, ensuring a corki frenzy. Ezreal is still fun whereas corki is good, same position he's been in the whole time.
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On January 03 2012 05:21 JackDino wrote:
Could poppy work vs a trondomere?
absolutely not. tryndamere would destroy her top lane
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On January 03 2012 06:46 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 06:45 JackDino wrote:On January 03 2012 06:43 Shikyo wrote:
^ But the thing is, W is really difficult to land vs boots-first in the first place, and even if you do manage to land it you are going to be taking a guaranteed QE combo which for most Viktors actually deals more damage than a Swains QWE(Viktor has more AP and higher base dmgs, Q shield blocks really nicely and if you have all 3 skills they are very low level). And after you hit the snare you're helpless for 22 seconds or whatever it was, giving Viktor time to land a billion Qs and forcing you off the lane.
You seem to be talking about lvl 3+ but Viktor shits on swain from lvl 1. Saying a skillshot is hard to land is not really a great argument for the matchup, that's a case of bad vs good player. It's like saying swain loses lane to everyone because his W is hard to land. dotdotdot There's different kinds of delayed AoE skillshots. There's Veigars W that I don't get hit by. There's Brands W that I do get hit by. Swain is one of the easy-to-avoid ones. They're not all the same. Also, I think it IS a great argument if it indeed is possible to reaction-dodge instead of having to mindgame dodge. For instance, you don't base your Veigar laning around landing Dark Matters without a stun, now do you? Why? Because it can be reaction-dodged.
Not really wanting to bring in elo into this because mine is pretty meh aswell but swains @ 1400 are exactly there because they can't hit their skillshots. I know plenty of high elo swain players who have no problem landing their W, and you can always Q first for an easy W. Veigar dark matter has a much longer delay.
Brand's W is smaller so it should be harder to land than swain W.
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On January 03 2012 06:47 NotSorry wrote:
what ap mids counter ahri?
Malzahar and Ryze
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On January 03 2012 07:26 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 07:21 Perplex wrote:On January 03 2012 05:21 JackDino wrote:
Could poppy work vs a trondomere? absolutely not. tryndamere would destroy her top lane Poppy #1. Haven't you read Mogwai's memo for last 2 years? :o
Lee was also #1(asshole). Thought of that and Poppy with a lee skin popped into my mind. Would look pretty hilarious.
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On January 03 2012 07:26 Kenpachi wrote:Malzahar and Ryze
I dunno if malz counters her really, he can push but Ahri should never get ulted in pool.
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EPT
