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On January 01 2012 23:21 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 22:41 BlueSpace wrote:On January 01 2012 22:32 spinesheath wrote:On January 01 2012 22:09 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
... HoG doesn't provide utility. Reverie does. Aegis does. Stark's does. On January 01 2012 22:10 JackDino wrote:
... You think a Cait, Sivir, Ashe, Ezreal, Trist, Vayne woudn't benefit from MP5 as much? Each of these can EASILY run their manapool empty for good results. They just hold back on spells because they can't afford it. Sure AD has lifesteal. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from HP5. APs don't build DFG? Well, when was the last time you saw a DFG or Randuin's on a support? Those items aren't even particularly good on most supports (DFG needs MPen and AP to make sense, Randuin's needs Armor/MR and is best used in the middle of the enemy team where most supports should not be). Yet I still see plenty of HoGs and Picks on supports. You don't run double AD bot because (in general) ADs are weak in lane. Supports are strong in lane. It's not the AD that decides the lane, it's the support (go ask all the tourney level AD players). Some double AD lanes ARE good against some lanes, however. My argument is that there is no point in getting HoG when you could get a Kindlegem instead. IF there is a point, however, it must be because of the gold/10 stat. IF that stat is so good, it must also be good on champs who could get it even earlier. Maybe the answer should be rephrased. Not x is bad, but why is y better then x. Obviously all characters benefit from gold, so an item that gives gold is always "good" but the question is which items do you delay for it and how will that affect your lane. For example lets assume that you have a bot lane that is about even. One AD builds BF, the other HoG and Philo. I'm quite sure that the team with BF will do better in the long run because they can put up a lot more pressure and will be able to deny the other team, which in turn lowers their income. Yet at the same time it makes no difference if one support builds useful items while the other support stacks gold/10? Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 22:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:@spinesheath I didn't mean utility from items. I meant utility from spells like alistair's combo, taric stun and stuff like that. Also, you didn't address the rest of my post so Im gonna assume that you admit that I 'm right.  I didn't because it overlapped with JackDino's post. Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 22:47 JackDino wrote:On January 01 2012 22:32 spinesheath wrote:On January 01 2012 22:09 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
... HoG doesn't provide utility. Reverie does. Aegis does. Stark's does. On January 01 2012 22:10 JackDino wrote:
... You think a Cait, Sivir, Ashe, Ezreal, Trist, Vayne woudn't benefit from MP5 as much? Each of these can EASILY run their manapool empty for good results. They just hold back on spells because they can't afford it. Sure AD has lifesteal. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from HP5. APs don't build DFG? Well, when was the last time you saw a DFG or Randuin's on a support? Those items aren't even particularly good on most supports (DFG needs MPen and AP to make sense, Randuin's needs Armor/MR and is best used in the middle of the enemy team where most supports should not be). Yet I still see plenty of HoGs and Picks on supports. You don't run double AD bot because (in general) ADs are weak in lane. Supports are strong in lane. It's not the AD that decides the lane, it's the support (go ask all the tourney level AD players). Some double AD lanes ARE good against some lanes, however. My argument is that there is no point in getting HoG when you could get a Kindlegem instead. IF there is a point, however, it must be because of the gold/10 stat. IF that stat is so good, it must also be good on champs who could get it even earlier. I didn't say hp5 on ads was useless, you said hp5 was equally good on supports as on ADs which simply isn't true. ADs get their "hp5" from just lasthitting, they don't need really need more hp5 unless they're bad. They don't need mp5 to farm either. I never advocated hog, kage or avarice on supports. Randuins is actually decent on a support to keep bruisers off your carry, it's just way too expensive. Double AD is actually strong in lane, it's just that you'll either have 1 weak AD(can still buy aura items, depending on the champ you can still somewhat support), or 2 half farmed ADs aren't as good as 1 farmed ad. You can't really trade very well with 2 ads if they're smart, if they fail, a support without items is better than an ad carry without items. (go ask all the tourney level AD players)You are too funny, if it helps your argument we should go ask tourney lvl players, but if you disagree you simply say "because X does so isn't a good argument. From now on all I need to do is respond with "ask any tourney level support players" and I'll be automatically right. The more HP5 you have the more you can trade. It's equally good on AD and support, no matter how high your regen already is. If Ezreal had more mana to spam Q on his enemies, he would, and he would be a stronger presence in lane. You seem to assume I'm specifically arguing with you - I'm not. I know you don't build triple gold/10, you said that plenty of times by now, and I never said anything against getting a Philo as long as you build a Reverie in a reasonable time. Randuin's is kinda ok, but not great on supports. But that's beside the point: If you go Philo HoG Reverie Boots2 Randuins while spamming wards, you won't get that Randuin's before 40 minutes. All you did was delay your Reverie. SOME double ADs are fine. But if you run any double AD but Cait Ashe against a Sona lane you're gonna cry. You CAN trade with them. The real difference between a good support and a bad support is a strong laning phase. You pair a support with an AD because the AD has a weak laning phase and the support is supposed to mitigate that. So if support > AD during laning, then support + AD > AD + AD during laning. If not, you just picked the wrong support or are not playing it correctly.
Except a dblade lets you trade better than a philo on an AD, having a hp crystal or a cloth armour won't let you trade that much more than having a philo, and the philo gives you some gold at the same time.
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The reason you don't buy philo or whatever on ad carries is that their damage snowballs with gold so 1k early on makes a big difference later, supports never get to the snowball item phase so thats why building gp/10 is more reasonable if you don't plant to convert then on other champs. gp/10s are also popular on junglers but they usually get shurelyas and randuins out of them.
I still feel like you need health on support and kindlegem does as well as hog but hog+kindgem is moar hp for overextenders like me.
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On January 01 2012 23:29 JackDino wrote:
Except a dblade lets you trade better than a philo on an AD, having a hp crystal or a cloth armour won't let you trade that much more than having a philo, and the philo gives you some gold at the same time.
That Philo isn't even subject of the discussion. The HoG and possibly even Pick after the Philo is. For the Philo it is easy to explain why you get it: HP5, MP5 and it builds into Reverie. The gold/10 is a bonus.
Now that this current-metagame-support has a Philo, he opts for a HoG next. Why? Kindlegem is of comparable cost, slightly less HP, 10 CDR extra. And it ALSO builds into Reverie. This would only make sense if the gold/10 was extremely good (it has to compare to a fricken 3 sec 40% team wide MSpd boost, which HoG delays by like 8 minutes). And ONLY IF it is so good, I raise the question why nobody gets it on ADs.
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On January 01 2012 23:49 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 23:29 JackDino wrote:
Except a dblade lets you trade better than a philo on an AD, having a hp crystal or a cloth armour won't let you trade that much more than having a philo, and the philo gives you some gold at the same time. That Philo isn't even subject of the discussion. The HoG and possibly even Pick after the Philo is. For the Philo it is easy to explain why you get it: HP5, MP5 and it builds into Reverie. The gold/10 is a bonus. Now that this current-metagame-support has a Philo, he opts for a HoG next. Why? Kindlegem is of comparable cost, slightly less HP, 10 CDR extra. And it ALSO builds into Reverie. This would only make sense if the gold/10 was extremely good (it has to compare to a fricken 3 sec 40% team wide MSpd boost, which HoG delays by like 8 minutes). And ONLY IF it is so good, I raise the question why nobody gets it on ADs.
I've only been skimming this argument right now, but I feel that HoG is picked up because it provides a cheap chunk of HP with gp5 while still in the laning phase. Having bonus HP is imo an equally important utility when taking AoE damage or sudden ganks (you might argue if you play perfectly you don't need it but that's a big assumption) - it's one of the reasons I follow Nhat's Soraka build of going HoG first and getting Philo last purely for the Reverie piece (his other support builds are a bit overkill on gold items though).
I also want to note that most supports grab a second GP item because they can usually get it early enough that it's still worth it (even if the math somewhere says that it only funds an additional ward or so). Additionally, if you play a tanky support (no gold quints or masteries) and you rush Reverie, you use up your philo before it ever was worth it (in terms of gold ticks only) and you are pretty bloody poor unless you get a ridiculous amount of assists. Therefore most supports feel comfortable changing their Philo into a Reverie mid game because they still have that one gold item, even if it doesn't convert into anything they can use (again, unless Randouins). Having gold ticks allow you to maintain some level of constant gold no matter how the game is going for you. AD carries don't need the gold item because they're "allowed" to last hit in the meta.
Lastly (again this is attempting to respond to what was previously discussed, not just this specific reply), GP items aren't as strong on ranged AD carries because they have the lifesteal/DPS items and if you think of someone who runs a BF sword against someone who ran a philo stone - it doesn't matter how useful you think MP5 is on Ezreal, he'll be melted in any trades easily. Edit: sorry for all the parentheses, too late in the morning and tired to actually write properly.
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On January 02 2012 00:30 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 23:49 spinesheath wrote:On January 01 2012 23:29 JackDino wrote:
Except a dblade lets you trade better than a philo on an AD, having a hp crystal or a cloth armour won't let you trade that much more than having a philo, and the philo gives you some gold at the same time. That Philo isn't even subject of the discussion. The HoG and possibly even Pick after the Philo is. For the Philo it is easy to explain why you get it: HP5, MP5 and it builds into Reverie. The gold/10 is a bonus. Now that this current-metagame-support has a Philo, he opts for a HoG next. Why? Kindlegem is of comparable cost, slightly less HP, 10 CDR extra. And it ALSO builds into Reverie. This would only make sense if the gold/10 was extremely good (it has to compare to a fricken 3 sec 40% team wide MSpd boost, which HoG delays by like 8 minutes). And ONLY IF it is so good, I raise the question why nobody gets it on ADs. I've only been skimming this argument right now, but I feel that HoG is picked up because it provides a cheap chunk of HP with gp5 while still in the laning phase. Having bonus HP is imo an equally important utility when taking AoE damage or sudden ganks (you might argue if you play perfectly you don't need it but that's a big assumption) - it's one of the reasons I follow Nhat's Soraka build of going HoG first and getting Philo last purely for the Reverie piece (his other support builds are a bit overkill on gold items though). I also want to note that most supports grab a second GP item because they can usually get it early enough that it's still worth it (even if the math somewhere says that it only funds an additional ward or so). Additionally, if you play a tanky support (no gold quints or masteries) and you rush Reverie, you use up your philo before it ever was worth it (in terms of gold ticks only) and you are pretty bloody poor unless you get a ridiculous amount of assists. Therefore most supports feel comfortable changing their Philo into a Reverie mid game because they still have that one gold item, even if it doesn't convert into anything they can use (again, unless Randouins). Having gold ticks allow you to maintain some level of constant gold no matter how the game is going for you. AD carries don't need the gold item because they're "allowed" to last hit in the meta. Lastly (again this is attempting to respond to what was previously discussed, not just this specific reply), GP items aren't as strong on ranged AD carries because they have the lifesteal/DPS items and if you think of someone who runs a BF sword against someone who ran a philo stone - it doesn't matter how useful you think MP5 is on Ezreal, he'll be melted in any trades easily. Edit: sorry for all the parentheses, too late in the morning and tired to actually write properly.
Going hog over philo is fine if you want more hp, if you go philo though you can just go kindlegem for faster reverie, and if you need even more hp after that(you really really shouldnt) you can go ruby for a late aegis.
Going HoG after philo gives you hp and gold sure, but you won't have that early reverie which is really good. If you dominate your lane and can get both before the 10min mark I'd just get them both though.
Anyone read the Rara drama? I think it's pretty hilarious considering saint got banned for RPing because streamers need to set an example, Psyonic getting fired because he banned someone and Rara setting a terrrible example on her stream and nothing happens.
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On January 02 2012 00:30 PartyBiscuit wrote:
I also want to note that most supports grab a second GP item because they can usually get it early enough that it's still worth it (even if the math somewhere says that it only funds an additional ward or so). Additionally, if you play a tanky support (no gold quints or masteries) and you rush Reverie, you use up your philo before it ever was worth it (in terms of gold ticks only) and you are pretty bloody poor unless you get a ridiculous amount of assists. Therefore most supports feel comfortable changing their Philo into a Reverie mid game because they still have that one gold item, even if it doesn't convert into anything they can use (again, unless Randouins). Having gold ticks allow you to maintain some level of constant gold no matter how the game is going for you. AD carries don't need the gold item because they're "allowed" to last hit in the meta.
I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea of not finishing Reverie (a highly efficient item, especially compared to HoG, with an active effect that could almost be an ultimate) just to get a couple of extra gold.
You could even get a HoG AFTER a Reverie and only "lose" a few hundred gold, if even.
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On January 02 2012 00:33 JackDino wrote:
\Anyone read the Rara drama? I think it's pretty hilarious considering saint got banned for RPing because streamers need to set an example, Psyonic getting fired because he banned someone and Rara setting a terrrible example on her stream and nothing happens.
I read it, people are being really stupid about it. It's not nearly the same thing as what Saint did.
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Let's not try to pretty up the SV case, he was simply griefing the other guy.
and can anyone provide link on said rara drama?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2012 00:30 PartyBiscuit wrote:
I also want to note that most supports grab a second GP item because they can usually get it early enough that it's still worth it (even if the math somewhere says that it only funds an additional ward or so). Additionally, if you play a tanky support (no gold quints or masteries) and you rush Reverie, you use up your philo before it ever was worth it (in terms of gold ticks only) and you are pretty bloody poor unless you get a ridiculous amount of assists. Therefore most supports feel comfortable changing their Philo into a Reverie mid game because they still have that one gold item, even if it doesn't convert into anything they can use (again, unless Randouins). Having gold ticks allow you to maintain some level of constant gold no matter how the game is going for you. AD carries don't need the gold item because they're "allowed" to last hit in the meta.
If you get good gold income from ganks, and pick up global gold from dragons/towers/etc., getting HoG at 15-ish minutes is fine.
The stupid thing is when, even in high-level games, supports stubbornly cookie-cutter their way into their 2nd gp10 item, even when it's past 20-25 minutes, because their team is losing and they haven't seen the support gold to get it earlier. At that point it's not likely to pay for itself anymore.
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On January 02 2012 00:46 daemir wrote:
Let's not try to pretty up the SV case, he was simply griefing the other guy.
and can anyone provide link on said rara drama?
One could say he was merely RPing, thing is, if it wasn't on stream he prolly wouldn't have been banned at all, riot said streamers should set an example.(Don't get me wrong, I think banning trolls on stream has some decent impact on the amount of trolls)
Rara did some real dumb shit on stream, as a rioter, she was really negative aswell which is far worse than trolling once.
If streamers should set an example, riot streamers should set a really really good example.
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Absolutely, not disagreeing with that, but any claims that SV was "RPing" instead of simply griefing is ludicrous.
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On January 02 2012 00:50 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 00:46 daemir wrote:
Let's not try to pretty up the SV case, he was simply griefing the other guy.
and can anyone provide link on said rara drama? One could say he was merely RPing, thing is, if it wasn't on stream he prolly wouldn't have been banned at all, riot said streamers should set an example. Rara did some real dumb shit on stream, as a rioter, she was really negative aswell which is far worse than trolling once. If streamers should set an example, riot streamers should set a really really good example.
He was not merely RPing, I don't know how you could even think that.
And from what I read she made a bad pick because she wasn't paying attention, her team gave her shit about it so she complained on stream. Like... big fucking deal?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 02 2012 00:55 starfries wrote:
He was not merely RPing, I don't know how you could even think that.
And from what I read she made a bad pick because she wasn't paying attention, her team gave her shit about it so she complained on stream. Like... big fucking deal?
I believe the argument is that if streamers are held to a "higher standard" because of their relative importance and visibility in the community, Riot streamers being held to an even higher standard than that is a logical extension of that, because, well, they WORK at Riot and are even more important to shaping community opinion than high level streamers.
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I'd rather we didn't get into another long heated drama discussion, so i'l ask this instead.
I don't know if I can really tell from one game, but does Renekton counter yorick toplane?
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If an official Rioter doesn't pay attention on stream, do you think other people will pay attention or just pick whatever they want simply because they weren't paying attention.
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This game needs a champion with ulti that drains 100% of enemy's primary resource (mana for casters, energy for ninjas/ls, heat for rumble - rumble op and hp for other champs - dealing true damage ofc).
In an AOE
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On January 02 2012 01:02 Kaniol wrote:
This game needs a champion with ulti that drains 100% of enemy's primary resource (mana for casters, energy for ninjas/ls, heat for rumble - rumble op and hp for other champs - dealing true damage ofc).
In an AOE
Nah, they should just make it an item or a lowcd summoner.
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On January 02 2012 00:58 JackDino wrote:
If an official Rioter doesn't pay attention on stream, do you think other people will pay attention or just pick whatever they want simply because they weren't paying attention.
Making a crappy pick is not even a bannable offense, SV wasn't banned for hard randoming jungle. Comparing that to SV and abusing ban power is ridiculous.
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On January 02 2012 01:05 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 00:58 JackDino wrote:
If an official Rioter doesn't pay attention on stream, do you think other people will pay attention or just pick whatever they want simply because they weren't paying attention. Making a crappy pick is not even a bannable offense, SV wasn't banned for hard randoming jungle. Comparing that to SV and abusing ban power is ridiculous.
I'm comparing it to the fact that streamers should set an example. She wasn't communicating, she made a bad pick, she acted pretty shitty in general. As a streaming Rioter she should pay some attention and have a happy attitude, or turn off the stream.
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EPT
