EPT[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 29
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:16 Kaniol wrote: Isn't it because supports don't have other reliable sources of income? And since they are doing awesomely well without any items they can just grab gp/10 items to have any income without interrupting carry's farm. You delay aura items like aegis, has nothing to do with using gp10 seals though. No one even mentioned gp10 items on the last page before spine did. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:24 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: well g/10 items provide other stats in addition to the gold income. If they are useful to you, you build them. If you're sacrificing other important items/wards for building g/10 then ur playing bad. People don't build g/10 just because of the gold they provide. It's why philo is great, gives hp/5, mp5, gp10 and builds into reverie. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:18 JackDino wrote: You delay aura items like aegis, has nothing to do with using gp10 seals though. No one even mentioned gp10 items on the last page before spine did. Well, sorry if I caused a slight change in topic duh. On January 01 2012 21:16 Kaniol wrote: Isn't it because supports don't have other reliable sources of income? And since they are doing awesomely well without any items they can just grab gp/10 items to have any income without interrupting carry's farm. Sure they do well without items, but they do even better with items. So if it is worth delaying your Reverie (an amazing item that has a HUGE impact in fights) by building a HoG, it must be worth delaying an item on your AD/AP for a HoG, Kage, or Avarice, because the AD/AP can get the gold/10 WAY earlier than the support. On January 01 2012 21:26 JackDino wrote: It's why philo is great, gives hp/5, mp5, gp10 and builds into reverie. Yes, Philo is great. If you plan to get Reverie SOON. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:35 spinesheath wrote: Well, sorry if I caused a slight change in topic duh. Sure they do well without items, but they do even better with items. So if it is worth delaying your Reverie (an amazing item that has a HUGE impact in fights) by building a HoG, it must be worth delaying an item on your AD/AP for a HoG, Kage, or Avarice, because the AD/AP can get the gold/10 WAY earlier than the support. Yes, Philo is great. If you plan to get Reverie SOON. Philo is great whenever, mp5 to let you do more things, hp5 to let you take more harass and it makes your reverie cheaper, if the first teamfight breaks out and the enemy support has an aegis while all you have is a philo you're either playing wrong or the enemy support had no wards. Besides, having an aegis(or any other item) doesn't automatically win you the teamfight, so if you win it with philo you should be way more ahead than you would be if you skipped the philo(assuming it wasn't superlate). Not to mention the stats on gp10 are useless for an ad(philo and avarice are debatable) and they don't build into anything usefull for them. It's why I don't get gp10 on supports other than philo, it's the only item that builds into something useful. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
Edit: also supports also benefit from the stats on gp10 but ad don't. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:49 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: supports build gp10 because they rely on them for their income, while ad rely on farm for income. So the ad won't accomplish anything by delaying their damage item for gp10s. Edit: also supports also benefit from the stats on gp10 but ad don't. If it was just for the gold, it would take AGES until gold/10 items pay off on a support. Supports don't benefit any more from HP, HP5 and usually MP5 than any AD. ADs do take damage and they also do cast spells. APs benefit from the AP on Kage's. ADs benefit from the crit on Avarice, especially when they are getting IE. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:18 JackDino wrote: You delay aura items like aegis, has nothing to do with using gp10 seals though. No one even mentioned gp10 items on the last page before spine did. I was referring to spines, sorry for not quoting him On January 01 2012 21:35 spinesheath wrote: Well, sorry if I caused a slight change in topic duh. Sure they do well without items, but they do even better with items. So if it is worth delaying your Reverie (an amazing item that has a HUGE impact in fights) by building a HoG, it must be worth delaying an item on your AD/AP for a HoG, Kage, or Avarice, because the AD/AP can get the gold/10 WAY earlier than the support. Yes, Philo is great. If you plan to get Reverie SOON. IMO it's better to grab kindlegem first if your main goal is to get reverie. Maybe people don't buy gp/10 items on ad/ap carries because cata/lantern/dorans are too important for damage trades and winning the lane with them. I guess the same could be said about supports, especially since i liked doran stacking on taric and soraka, havent played them post nerfs though (actually i haven't played supports in a loong time because i always play arranged 5s and we always have the support) | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
people seem to think that the only way to get more farm is to get more damage, but if you are in certain match ups early sustain stats are just as useful. people i think get blinded by the gp10, as if its the only stat on the item, i think its more of an icing on the cake, even for supports. i doubt so many supports would get heart of gold if it didnt build in to anything. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:59 spinesheath wrote: If it was just for the gold, it would take AGES until gold/10 items pay off on a support. Supports don't benefit any more from HP, HP5 and usually MP5 than any AD. ADs do take damage and they also do cast spells. APs benefit from the AP on Kage's. ADs benefit from the crit on Avarice, especially when they are getting IE. They may benefit from the stats on philo but in the case of AD carries building damage is more of a priority than getting gp10. They can get the sustain they need from lifesteal which is a part of their build anyways. Most AD carries are not as mana intensive as supports. No ranged AD builds youmu's ghostblade in their core so the investment in an avarice blade is isn't worth it since its pretty expensive just for the crit it gives which you can get anyways from IE+PD. In the case of kage's for AP, again unless u want a DFG its not worth to delay your rhabadon/RoA for the cost ineffective stats on a kage's if ur gonna sell it later anyways. Basically 1) ADs and APs need to focus on damage output while supports usually provide ultility (cc, heals etc) so u don't want to delay ur damage items on carries. 2) Since carries are farming, the benefits of gp10 are comparatively minuscule compared to the sacrifice you make in delaying ur main items. This is in contrasts to supports who don't farm so the gold benefits to them are far more significant. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 01 2012 21:59 spinesheath wrote: If it was just for the gold, it would take AGES until gold/10 items pay off on a support. Supports don't benefit any more from HP, HP5 and usually MP5 than any AD. ADs do take damage and they also do cast spells. APs benefit from the AP on Kage's. ADs benefit from the crit on Avarice, especially when they are getting IE. Supports benefit more from hp5 and mp5 because they tend to use abilities more, and ads dont need hp5 because they have lifesteal. APs benefit from the AP on kage's, it doesn't build into anything they tend to use though. AD's benefit from crit on avarice, it's useless if you don't get a ghostblade. Your entire argument is basically, if it's bad on ad/ap it's bad on support without even thinking about it. Why not just run double AD bot, Auras on ADs are just as usefull as on a support and depending on the AD(ashe for example) you can be usefull aswell, aoe slow, ult, hawkshot. Someone like cait has a good poke and traps, even without items. I'd run double AD all day if it wasn't for the shitty attitude players have. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 01 2012 22:09 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: ... HoG doesn't provide utility. Reverie does. Aegis does. Stark's does. On January 01 2012 22:10 JackDino wrote: ... You think a Cait, Sivir, Ashe, Ezreal, Trist, Vayne woudn't benefit from MP5 as much? Each of these can EASILY run their manapool empty for good results. They just hold back on spells because they can't afford it. Sure AD has lifesteal. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from HP5. APs don't build DFG? Well, when was the last time you saw a DFG or Randuin's on a support? Those items aren't even particularly good on most supports (DFG needs MPen and AP to make sense, Randuin's needs Armor/MR and is best used in the middle of the enemy team where most supports should not be). Yet I still see plenty of HoGs and Picks on supports. You don't run double AD bot because (in general) ADs are weak in lane. Supports are strong in lane. It's not the AD that decides the lane, it's the support (go ask all the tourney level AD players). Some double AD lanes ARE good against some lanes, however. My argument is that there is no point in getting HoG when you could get a Kindlegem instead. IF there is a point, however, it must be because of the gold/10 stat. IF that stat is so good, it must also be good on champs who could get it even earlier. | ||
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On January 01 2012 22:32 spinesheath wrote: HoG doesn't provide utility. Reverie does. Aegis does. Stark's does. You think a Cait, Sivir, Ashe, Ezreal, Trist, Vayne woudn't benefit from MP5 as much? Each of these can EASILY run their manapool empty for good results. They just hold back on spells because they can't afford it. Sure AD has lifesteal. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from HP5. APs don't build DFG? Well, when was the last time you saw a DFG or Randuin's on a support? Those items aren't even particularly good on most supports (DFG needs MPen and AP to make sense, Randuin's needs Armor/MR and is best used in the middle of the enemy team where most supports should not be). Yet I still see plenty of HoGs and Picks on supports. You don't run double AD bot because (in general) ADs are weak in lane. Supports are strong in lane. It's not the AD that decides the lane, it's the support (go ask all the tourney level AD players). Some double AD lanes ARE good against some lanes, however. My argument is that there is no point in getting HoG when you could get a Kindlegem instead. IF there is a point, however, it must be because of the gold/10 stat. IF that stat is so good, it must also be good on champs who could get it even earlier. Maybe the answer should be rephrased. Not x is bad, but why is y better then x. Obviously all characters benefit from gold, so an item that gives gold is always "good" but the question is which items do you delay for it and how will that affect your lane. For example lets assume that you have a bot lane that is about even. One AD builds BF, the other HoG and Philo. I'm quite sure that the team with BF will do better in the long run because they can put up a lot more pressure and will be able to deny the other team, which in turn lowers their income. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 01 2012 22:32 spinesheath wrote: HoG doesn't provide utility. Reverie does. Aegis does. Stark's does. You think a Cait, Sivir, Ashe, Ezreal, Trist, Vayne woudn't benefit from MP5 as much? Each of these can EASILY run their manapool empty for good results. They just hold back on spells because they can't afford it. Sure AD has lifesteal. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't benefit from HP5. APs don't build DFG? Well, when was the last time you saw a DFG or Randuin's on a support? Those items aren't even particularly good on most supports (DFG needs MPen and AP to make sense, Randuin's needs Armor/MR and is best used in the middle of the enemy team where most supports should not be). Yet I still see plenty of HoGs and Picks on supports. You don't run double AD bot because (in general) ADs are weak in lane. Supports are strong in lane. It's not the AD that decides the lane, it's the support (go ask all the tourney level AD players). Some double AD lanes ARE good against some lanes, however. My argument is that there is no point in getting HoG when you could get a Kindlegem instead. IF there is a point, however, it must be because of the gold/10 stat. IF that stat is so good, it must also be good on champs who could get it even earlier. I didn't say hp5 on ads was useless, you said hp5 was equally good on supports as on ADs which simply isn't true. ADs get their "hp5" from just lasthitting, they don't need really need more hp5 unless they're bad. They don't need mp5 to farm either. I never advocated hog, kage or avarice on supports. Randuins is actually decent on a support to keep bruisers off your carry, it's just way too expensive. Double AD is actually strong in lane, it's just that you'll either have 1 weak AD(can still buy aura items, depending on the champ you can still somewhat support), or 2 half farmed ADs aren't as good as 1 farmed ad. You can't really trade very well with 2 ads if they're smart, if they fail, a support without items is better than an ad carry without items. (go ask all the tourney level AD players) You are too funny, if it helps your argument we should go ask tourney lvl players, but if you disagree you simply say "because X does so isn't a good argument. From now on all I need to do is respond with "ask any tourney level support players" and I'll be automatically right. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On January 01 2012 22:41 BlueSpace wrote: Maybe the answer should be rephrased. Not x is bad, but why is y better then x. Obviously all characters benefit from gold, so an item that gives gold is always "good" but the question is which items do you delay for it and how will that affect your lane. For example lets assume that you have a bot lane that is about even. One AD builds BF, the other HoG and Philo. I'm quite sure that the team with BF will do better in the long run because they can put up a lot more pressure and will be able to deny the other team, which in turn lowers their income. Yet at the same time it makes no difference if one support builds useful items while the other support stacks gold/10? On January 01 2012 22:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: @spinesheath I didn't mean utility from items. I meant utility from spells like alistair's combo, taric stun and stuff like that. Also, you didn't address the rest of my post so Im gonna assume that you admit that I 'm right. I didn't because it overlapped with JackDino's post. On January 01 2012 22:47 JackDino wrote: I didn't say hp5 on ads was useless, you said hp5 was equally good on supports as on ADs which simply isn't true. ADs get their "hp5" from just lasthitting, they don't need really need more hp5 unless they're bad. They don't need mp5 to farm either. I never advocated hog, kage or avarice on supports. Randuins is actually decent on a support to keep bruisers off your carry, it's just way too expensive. Double AD is actually strong in lane, it's just that you'll either have 1 weak AD(can still buy aura items, depending on the champ you can still somewhat support), or 2 half farmed ADs aren't as good as 1 farmed ad. You can't really trade very well with 2 ads if they're smart, if they fail, a support without items is better than an ad carry without items. (go ask all the tourney level AD players) You are too funny, if it helps your argument we should go ask tourney lvl players, but if you disagree you simply say "because X does so isn't a good argument. From now on all I need to do is respond with "ask any tourney level support players" and I'll be automatically right. The more HP5 you have the more you can trade. It's equally good on AD and support, no matter how high your regen already is. If Ezreal had more mana to spam Q on his enemies, he would, and he would be a stronger presence in lane. You seem to assume I'm specifically arguing with you - I'm not. I know you don't build triple gold/10, you said that plenty of times by now, and I never said anything against getting a Philo as long as you build a Reverie in a reasonable time. Randuin's is kinda ok, but not great on supports. But that's beside the point: If you go Philo HoG Reverie Boots2 Randuins while spamming wards, you won't get that Randuin's before 40 minutes. All you did was delay your Reverie. SOME double ADs are fine. But if you run any double AD but Cait Ashe against a Sona lane you're gonna cry. You CAN trade with them. The real difference between a good support and a bad support is a strong laning phase. You pair a support with an AD because the AD has a weak laning phase and the support is supposed to mitigate that. So if support > AD during laning, then support + AD > AD + AD during laning. If not, you just picked the wrong support or are not playing it correctly. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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