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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote: IMO: Carry, Support, Initiator, Ganker/Anti-Carry I think initiation is more of a function though, and not a role. Ashe is a great initiator, while Udyr is a poor one. We have AD carries, supports, and casters that most people tend to agree on, and then "everything else" (90+% of which are melee and/or bruisers). | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:35 TheYango wrote: Asking about that without having done a search should be bannable IMO. IDK the last "what is a tank?" got pretty bad, but I think now people are prepared to agree to disagree | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:32 TheYango wrote: IMO: Carry, Support, Initiator, Ganker/Anti-Carry Going by the player's "role" in teamfights, this is somewhat more informative, because, for example "Caster" doesn't really tell you exactly what they're supposed to do in a fight. There are casters like Leblanc that are supposed to insta-burst high value targets (Anti-Carry), there are casters that have high-value initiating spells that get shit started (Annie), there are casters that having defensive/supportive mid-lategame teamfighting roles (Zilean), and there are casters that just do fked damage to everyone (Carry). And where do the (loosely defined) "bruiser/tanky-dps" fall in here? I suppose anti-carry or carry depending on their role? For example, which do you consider Udyr? Or Rammus? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:37 Sandster wrote: We have AD carries, supports, and casters that most people tend to agree on, and then "everything else" (90+% of which are melee and/or bruisers). I don't even agree on "casters" as a class, because pretty much every "caster" is classifiable as either a carry, a support, or a ganker that just happens to buy AP items. In terms of what their role is in fights, there's not enough common ground across all "casters" to dump them in a single category. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:26 Requizen wrote: We already talked about Yi as tanky-dps, and T_D's logic is sound in that regard. Rammus is Support, if we're going off his list. He's an offensive support since his damage is low, but CC (Powerball and Taunt), survival, and mobility put him there. His job is to support the team by getting in, disrupting the enemy, and CCing a specific target. I'm more interested as to where Talon goes. You could consider him tanky-dps as he sort of builds that way and has an invis for avoiding(reducing) damage, but he's more of an AD caster in his skillset. Yi sin't a tanky dps, what the fuck are you talking about ? Yi is a fighter, Rammus is a dedicated tank/initiator. What's wrong with the Riot way to class champions ? Support, Mage, Fighter, Bruiser, Ranged carry, and Tank/initiator ? | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:27 wei2coolman wrote: I think people are too obsessed with putting certain champions in very specific "roles". But how are we going to complain about Riot not releasing a "balanced" rooster? Role definitions are helpfull for beginners to get a decent Teamcomp but in "higher Elo" games the rolebased aproach is obsolete. There it´s about Team synergy and enemy matchups. The main reason that we don´t get "true" supports anymore is because Riot wants to get away from superpassive "babysitters". Champs like Soraka wouldn´t be released today. | ||
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:37 Flakes wrote: IDK the last "what is a tank?" got pretty bad, but I think now people are prepared to agree to disagree It's just that there's a lot of overlapping between rolls these days. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:41 Noocta wrote: What's wrong with the Riot way to class champions ? Support, Mage, Fighter, Bruiser, Ranged carry, and Tank/initiator ? Because Mage, Fighter, and Bruiser are completely uninformative terms about what your role is in fights. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
-Some form of cc/zone control -Poses a huge threat to their squishes if left unchecked -Ranged magic damage Of course target picks and playstyles differ greatly, but pretty much every AP carry is picked with the mindset of providing cc/utility + high damage output (whether sustained or burst). The exceptions are guys like Zilean, Janna, and Soraka, since their late game damage isn't much of a threat. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:41 Noocta wrote: Yi sin't a tanky dps, what the fuck are you talking about ? Yi is a fighter, Rammus is a dedicated tank/initiator. What's wrong with the Riot way to class champions ? Support, Mage, Fighter, Bruiser, Ranged carry, and Tank/initiator ? What in da world is the difference between a "tanky dps" and a "fighter". | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:41 Noocta wrote: Yi sin't a tanky dps, what the fuck are you talking about ? Yi is a fighter, Rammus is a dedicated tank/initiator. What's wrong with the Riot way to class champions ? Support, Mage, Fighter, Bruiser, Ranged carry, and Tank/initiator ? Look back seriously one page, T_D and I just talked about it: On January 14 2012 02:03 Two_DoWn wrote: Well, you have to think about both. Yi and Xin's kit point them in the direction of being tanky dps, simply because they have gap closers and enjoy hitting you in the face from right in front of you. And then if you look at how you want to build them optimally: enough health and resists to stay alive throughout the fight with 1, MAYBE 2 actual damage items. Thats a tanky dps mindset for both cases. And if it wanst clear for anyone when I made the ranged ad/caster distinction: Ranged ad can kill towers, casters and sustained casters cant. That is enough differentiation for a separation of the roles. Riot's way of classifying champions is nice, but very vague. Like, there are things like fighter/assassin (Panth, Poppy), when they themselves say assassin means squishy burst and fighter means survivable dps. You get the idea of a fighter/assassin, but that's a bad way to put it. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:43 TheYango wrote: Because Mage, Fighter, and Bruiser are completely uninformative terms about what your role is in fights. Since when this has to do with teamfighting ? A fighter is a melee damage dealer, who focus heavily into damage items and little survability. A bruiser is a melee damage dealer who focus into a fair mix of protection and hybrid damage items. A Mage is a magic damage aler who focus into ability power items to help his abilities. It's so simple.. why do people are arguying about that oO | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:46 Sandster wrote: Well, most casters have the following in common: -Some form of cc/zone control -Poses a huge threat to their squishes if left unchecked -Ranged magic damage Of course target picks and playstyles differ greatly, but pretty much every AP carry is picked with the mindset of providing cc/utility + high damage output (whether sustained or burst). The exceptions are guys like Zilean, Janna, and Soraka, since their late game damage isn't much of a threat. OK, and depending on their skew towards one of those three things, they play as a support, anti-carry, or carry. Utiliy-heavy casters play like supports. Burst-heavy casters play like anti-carries. Sustained damage casters play like carries. Again, why are they all lumped together? I still think classing Cassi as a carry, Morgana as a support, and Leblanc as an anti-carry is more informative than calling them all "casters" just because they all happen to cast a lot of spells. On January 14 2012 02:48 Noocta wrote: Since when this has to do with teamfighting ? A fighter is a melee damage dealer, who focus heavily into damage items and little survability. A bruiser is a melee damage dealer who focus into a fair mix of protection and hybrid damage items. A Mage is a magic damage aler who focus into ability power items to help his abilities. It's so simple.. why do people are arguying about that oO Because that's the purpose of defined "role" tags? To give people a general sense of what your goal is in fights? I could care less about what items I'm supposed to buy. That's not what the "role" tag is for. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:48 Noocta wrote: Since when this has to do with teamfighting ? A fighter is a melee damage dealer, who focus heavily into damage items and little survability. A bruiser is a melee damage dealer who focus into a fair mix of protection and hybrid damage items. A Mage is a magic damage aler who focus into ability power items to help his abilities. It's so simple.. why do people are arguying about that oO Your definitions are based on what items champs buy which is just wrong, most bruisers can build like a fighter and lots of fighters can build like a bruiser and get away with it. Then there's also AD mages like pantheon and Talon. Rammus perfectly fits into the bruiser category, you can build him like one, he'll be tanky(lol W) and he'll do shittons of dmg. Heck he can assassinate carries if he's not the one initiating(which he is amazing at). Also saying yi is a fighter and not a bruiser is weird, you can build atmogs on yi which is a bruiser build and he'll do fine, the definitions are just weird/champs roles overlap. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:37 mordek wrote: Maybe make a thread that copies all that info so it's easier to find? Just occured to me when you said that. From personal experience, searching through GD threads is difficult when you're looking for something specific. My quote finally has a purpose I think! | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:56 epoc wrote: Where do old jax and trynd belong to? They dont build tanky. Jax is a superstar and Trynd is a bitch. Trynd is what you could call a fighter I guess, jax doesn't build tanky(you buy some tanky items tho) but he is tanky so he's pretty much a bruiser. He can't tank as much as others though as you don't build full tank with like a triforce or w/e. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:56 epoc wrote: Where do old jax and trynd belong to? They dont build tanky. They're carries. This is really not that hard. Carry - my role is to kill anyone/everyone I can Anti-carry - my role is to kill a specific target on the enemy team Support - my role is to protect/set up my teammates Initiator - my role is to get the fight started, then do whatever | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 14 2012 02:56 epoc wrote: Where do old jax and trynd belong to? They dont build tanky. Well, Jax "builds" tanky, since he's getting health from damage. He's just getting health items for free, more or less. Trynd is just a bastard. | ||
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