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If you are making an assertion, please use the format from the OP.
Champion we're analyzing
Counters
~ Reasons
It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question.
Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc?
This thread should encourage all of you in LiquidParty to occasionally host some practice games and try out specific solo matchups. Then come back and report your findings. We can have players of various skill levels try out the matchups to get a better understanding. |
On July 28 2011 01:05 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 21:12 Shikyo wrote:
Can't help but disagree, Wukong shouldn't be able to clear the shield if Morde plays it out correctly, and is going to take a lot of damage from Mordekaisers skills whenever he gets close. Wukong also has 0 natural sustainability. Key to beating morde in lane is the ability to constantly harrass, health pots take care of wukongs lack of sustainability early game. Repeated E,Q,W combo attacks occur so quickly that there is little time to react to them, morde may get of one of his attacks if he is lucky and his auto attack animation is painfully slow. Wukongs strength is his speed. Granted I only played against 2 mordes last night but I was surprised at his ability to push morde around.
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones.
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On July 28 2011 02:44 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +
Soft countered by: Meaning you cannot kill them whatever they do almost and although they might not be able to kill you they can farm freely and pretty much ignore you.
Lanewick, nothing to do vs that lifesteal
Udyr, shield and lifesteal
There are some other chars that almost falls into this category as well but they are nothing special really, like morde, cho-gath etc and nocturne, basically characters with shields and life steal.
Rumble Excels at handling sustain characters I have virtually no problem with all those you listed. His flame spitter is near constant damage on them and your W allows for quick escapes while its on cooldown. If they attack E and W out then return with Q. I find sustains the easiest to push around on rumble and collect kills from. I will agree on garen he hard counters me and I can't really explain why. If you play a safe game I can survive but severely under farmed.
That is not true, you just have not played vs good enough players I've played rumble now 300+ games and laned 1v1 vs almost anyone more than a couple of times. They can never kill you if you don't make a big mistake but an udyr not commiting to killing you but just playing carefully and consitent you just can't kill him. Had a game yesterday where we both were 0-0-0 on lvl 16, I couldn't damage him and he couldn't trap me. Lanewick is just impossible as well if he's good, don't know why but I was amazed at it, he's even better at it than udyr at least before the patch, not sure about now.
The thing with rumble, he is pretty much uncounterable except by brand. You most often can't kill him if he doesn't fuck up or get ganked by jungle, the way to counter him is to deny him kills and he will fade away as the game progresses as his lategame is not that great.
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Speaking of garen, I laned against him top with lee-sin and we broke about even with constant aggression, that was a fun lane.
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On July 27 2011 22:33 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:50 Flakes wrote:On July 27 2011 02:03 gtrsrs wrote:On July 27 2011 01:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle. i don't think that's true though. udyr will likely have a level advantage going into jax's ult, which by the way deteriorates extremely quickly. if udyr stuns jax after his first or second hit with bear, and then turns around and walks away, jax is going to either (a)use leapstrike and precious mana to close the distance just to ult-hit a turtle-stanced udyr, or (b)lose his ult. if udyr is far enough ahead (possible, but not super likely if he stops for wriggles on the way to real items) then he's just going to stand and fight jax and crush him. yes, jax is the 1v1 king, but udyr is ALSO the 1v1 king and kicks in on his first hit, not his 10th. toss in the fact that udyr will likely run exhaust, and jax will likely run ignite, and i *still* don't see jax winning this at level 6+ Jax can win melee-sustain lanes (Udyr, Jarman, Irelia, Xin) by ranking up empower past 1, or even maxing it while leaving leap strike at 1, as auto-attack+empower for an instant second hit is a hefty burst for only 20(!) mana, plus benefits from the AD runes that all Jaxs have. It doesn't get much more efficient than that, unless you're level 6 and you hit a creep first, then run/jump to udyr, auto+empower for the third ult hit. Leveling up empower makes Jax more vulnerable to ganks, however I think that with the nerf to leapstrike base damage, early empower is the way to win some lanes. Not enough to beat yorick pre-patch, haven't tried vs. him post-patch. how do you plan on landing the second (or even first) hit without leapstrike though? and if you don't level leapstrike then it's CD is 13s. that's like 4 turtle stances for udyr to regen through
How do I land hits on melee champions? O.o
If they run away, then you farm...
If you want to try it out message me in game, I like practicing my Jax and I'd rather be proven wrong in a practice game than in a ranked game.
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On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan.
Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right?
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On July 28 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones.
Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone  . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam.
On July 28 2011 03:57 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan. Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right?
So there is no hard counter for Garen then?
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ranged champion who wards the brush in the lane rapes garen.
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On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones. Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:57 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan. Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right? So there is no hard counter for Garen then?
Speaking from the experience of nothing, vayne? Or does she not penetrate the shield well enough?
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam.
You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps.
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On July 28 2011 05:34 Mogwai wrote:
ranged champion who wards the brush in the lane rapes garen.
which brush do you personally ward, j/w? the one closer to your tower or theirs? i assume yours but i just wanna get dat confirmation
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On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps.
Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
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depends on the balance of the lane. Preferably my side though.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2011 06:00 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps. Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
1) Morde's going to W something at the start of the wave. That's going to give him pretty constant shield generation until the wave clears. If that something is himself, it'll also buffer his mitigation stats.
2) Why would Morde stick around after clearing creeps unless he knows he has enough shield to trade with you, or knows he can win a fight with you tanking the 6+ enemy creeps that are also there, given that he just cleared all your creeps?
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i stick by the assertion that i made months and months ago when i was advising shen as a solo top, which now holds true for any other strong level 1 champ. if you're aggressive from level 1 you'll beat mordekaiser. if you wait til level 2 or 3 to start your harass you've already lost the lane. it's pretty much that simple
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On July 28 2011 06:00 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps. Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
Your idea of punishing is taking a non-deflecting Q smash to the face?
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good mordes seem to not take any chances at early levels vs. strong early level laners in my experience.
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Hmm. I have sorta wondered what are the counters (if any) to Brand. I have a very tough time laning against him on a bunch of my characters.
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On July 28 2011 06:11 gtrsrs wrote:
i stick by the assertion that i made months and months ago when i was advising shen as a solo top, which now holds true for any other strong level 1 champ. if you're aggressive from level 1 you'll beat mordekaiser. if you wait til level 2 or 3 to start your harass you've already lost the lane. it's pretty much that simple
Annie beats morde really horribly, imo(from my limited experience vs mordes). Whenever you have a stun you just combo him and it's going to chip away at his health. Got first blood vs both mordes at lvl 3-4 but yeah morde only gets strong after like lvl 3 and there definitely is a window of opportunity
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Morde is weak from levels like 1-3 when his shield has like no hp. But past that, he can just sit in the goddam creep wave and QWE you every time you attempt to harass or last hit. There's no rule saying he has to use his spells on creep. Only bad Mordes or in matchups where it's a farmfest do that.
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EPT
