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If you are making an assertion, please use the format from the OP.
Champion we're analyzing
Counters
~ Reasons
It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question.
Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc?
This thread should encourage all of you in LiquidParty to occasionally host some practice games and try out specific solo matchups. Then come back and report your findings. We can have players of various skill levels try out the matchups to get a better understanding. |
On July 30 2011 07:36 Khelevaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 07:06 Shikyo wrote:On July 30 2011 06:41 Khelevaster wrote:
I found that Cassiopeia is a soft-counter to some casters (malz, brand, anivia) due to the fact that they cannot trade spells with her, especially at low levels. The skillshots these guys have do comparable damage to her, but Cass is a lot more spammy, meaning that she gets a lot more tries at hitting her skills. And once the other caster misses a skillshot she can go in and push them around.
She also has an advantage over vlad due to the range difference. Cassiopeia is a good counter pick to multiple solo top sustain champions. Almost no melee can stand up to her QE spam and if they try to jump her, she just ults. Wonder why people don't do this more. She might be a bit too squishy for solo top. Champs like Jax or Xin would wreck her. But I haven't played her in that role much.
If she can get level 2 before taking too much damage then she beats Jax easily. At level 2, if Jax jumps you, you exhaust him immediately. It seems weird to blow a summoner on a full health champion, but he's forced to flash or die, and depending on where in the lane it happens you can still chase him down for a lot more damage and make him go b. Same idea with Xin, but you won't be able to chase him after he flashes because his E slows you, but you also won't eat as much harass before level 2.
edit: her midgame is also super beast, no one can tank her once she hits level 9 because her dps goes through the roof. She scales up a lot quicker than physical ranged carries while dealing just as much damage (although not as much once they get close to full item builds)
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Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Heimerdinger
Counters
Soft: Smite
While this isn't a champion, it does go with your champion's kit. I imagine there will be some debate after I post this but I play more games as heimer than any other champion and this is one of the most annoying things I have to go against. Smite kills his turrets, which severely hurts his ability to farm, and greatly reduces his safety net. If you start this early, heimer will have to waste a large amount of mana keeping his turrets up in lane, meaning he has less mana to harass you. On the other hand, if he forsakes keeping a turret up in lane to maintain his mana pool, then his ability to farm, push, and safety take fairly large hits (and you can still smite minions so the summoner isn't useless, with the mastery you even get bonus gold). Additionally, without his turrets helping him to clear a lane, his harass potential is much weaker, since it becomes much harder to get a rocket to hit you than a minion since in general there are more minions around.
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On July 27 2011 02:44 Haemonculus wrote:
Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
AP Master Yi rapes alot of lanes IMO, though the key to countering him is attacking him after he Q's you, not letting him benefit from the trade.
Though a smart AP Yi will Q minions so it bounces onto you, while it is not as reliable if there is alot of minions nearby, it's safer.
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Don't know if this is the right thread, but when drafting (SoloQ or Arranged 5's)
Shouldn't Jungle + Support be your first two picks? Picks which are very hard to counter and Last pick should be your Top lane?
Reasoning is that Top lane usually gets a lot of time to sit there and farm so you want to make sure you have a good matchup on top so that you maximize your farming.
This assumes you pick second.
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On August 06 2011 05:10 STS17 wrote:
Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
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On July 27 2011 02:44 Haemonculus wrote:
Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
Why would you Q him if you know he's going to Alpha? But if you know he's going to do that, max E leaving Q at lvl 1, Q him and when he alphas, W yourself, then E E E Q E E dead
EDIT: GOD I really tried to edit this in but nope, I'm just bad
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Cassiopeia I feel is a pretty solid soft counter to Morde in lane as a cause of her sustained damage and the ability to burst him down at long ranges.
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Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
I hope you're fucking kidding lol. Have you ever played this matchup? You're saying that at level 2, morde's 120damage shield is going to buffer against Zil's iirc 180damage burst? Or that at level 5 you can out shield his 400 damage burst? What if this Zil runs Flat AP quints or seals and blues? Are you really saying this? My mind is beyond boggled - I've lurked TL for quite a bit, but every post you make irks me to no end. Please stop assuming your theorycraft and logic are superior without prior experience.
Edit: Also let me add, did you even read the original post by STS? Do you not know the cast range of Zilean's bombs? Do you REALLY expect to be even able to reach the creeps? My god my mind is blown.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2011 09:25 rwrzr wrote:
Don't know if this is the right thread, but when drafting (SoloQ or Arranged 5's)
Shouldn't Jungle + Support be your first two picks? Picks which are very hard to counter and Last pick should be your Top lane?
Reasoning is that Top lane usually gets a lot of time to sit there and farm so you want to make sure you have a good matchup on top so that you maximize your farming.
This assumes you pick second.
What makes you assume support and jungle are harder to counterpick than AD/AP carries?
It depends on the champion. Orianna and Caitlyn are arguably harder to counterpick than, say, Nocturne and Soraka.
On August 06 2011 09:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 05:10 STS17 wrote:
Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
You don't bomb your creeps. You bomb one of his low HP creeps and do like 350 burst damage at level 3.
Zilean has higher level 3 burst than the vast majority of AP carries simply because he has effectively 2 level 2 nukes when they'll have 1 level 2 and 1 level 1.
On August 06 2011 12:23 Truez wrote:
I hope you're fucking kidding lol. Have you ever played this matchup? You're saying that at level 2, morde's 120damage shield is going to buffer against Zil's iirc 180damage burst? Or that at level 5 you can out shield his 400 damage burst? What if this Zil runs Flat AP quints or seals and blues? Are you really saying this? My mind is beyond boggled - I've lurked TL for quite a bit, but every post you make irks me to no end. Please stop assuming your theorycraft and logic are superior without prior experience.
To be fair, you should never double bomb into Mordekaiser's full shield. Zilean is super mana-limited pre-Cata, and while it'll push damage, if you're not making sure to burst him when he's low on shield, you're going to run out of mana before you force him out of lane
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I'm a baddie, so I'm more or less just bringing this up as a discussion point to get some real people to comment on
Annie
Counters
Soft: Fiddlesticks
Reasoning:
Early on fiddle can harrass annie pretty well, he can Dark wind on a minion and if it bounces on Annie, he walk up and Terrify --> Drain for max damage. Or alternatively, Fiddle can wait for a Dark Wind bounce and while she's silenced start drain, then stop it in the middle and Terrify to keep from taking any harass back. The caveat here is that if annie has tibbers, she can WTF pwn you in the face and likely burst you down, but you can also kill her outright if you surprise her with crowstorm.
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Morde
Countered by
Garen
Silence + spin. The Q on garen allows him to either zone or hurt morde a lot of his shield is not up. And after the Q, garen can stick to mordes with the spin and do some terrible damage unless he has boots. Regardless, he'll take a lot of damage. ( I basically got massacred by a garen as morde haha)
Anyone else think this matchup is one-sided?
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Garen shits and pisses on melee heroes then mixes his excrement in their wounds so that they'll get bacterial infections and die.
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Oh man just played lee sin solo mid against a kassadin. I felt so bad, if that isn't how to hard counter a lane I dont know what is. He will never get a last hit because you can W to any he tries, his silence is laughable after you shield and auto attack, and landing a Q makes his ult useless, along with your E make actually fighting lee sin really stupid. even funnier udyr tried to gank me 5 times, and I had no wards but i just leap all around him.
Poor kassadin 
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I think Galio is a hard counter to Morde his Q hits for a ton and it is so easy for him to zone almost anyone with his Q and quick escape on his E along with W for sustainability
We ever gonna get the list updated on the OP?.
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On August 08 2011 17:39 exo6yte wrote:
Garen shits and pisses on melee heroes then mixes his excrement in their wounds so that they'll get bacterial infections and die.
Thank you for making me spew my morning coffee all over my monitor. I appreciate that.
Srsly though I'm already terrified of Garen. i don't even know what to think of him after this patch
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Since there's been a bit of discussion on Garen I thought I'd add at least 1 more matchup to the mix.
Garen
Countered By:
~ Darius
Having played this from both sides, I think Darius can pretty easily counter Garen.
- If Garen tries to farm and ignore Darius - Darius harasses with outer-edge Q repeatedly, until Garen is low enough to pull in for the kill.
- Anytime Garen tries to run at him with Q - Darius hits with Q, this immediately gives Darius speed boost. He runs back behind minions. You should be able to see if Garen will reach you with his Q or not; if he will, turn on W right as he hits you. Passive speed boost + W slow on Garen easily lets you run away from Judgment. After judgment wears off, pull Garen back in for another 1-2 atuos + a 2nd Q hit, R for the kill if level 6+.
As garen against Darius, the only way I know to kill him is to let him push the wave with Q, let your passive heal up any harass damage, then kill minions at tower and get a gank.
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Cho'Gath
Countered By:
~ Wukong
Gap close lets you hit cho whenever he gets near creeps and doge his q if necessary.
His decoy/stealth lets you get into position to either bait out q/w or to move into position to force cho back with the trat of attack.
Tanky enough to easily survive full burst from Cho.
Able to stay on cho if he attempts to disengage.
~ Xin Zhao
Armor ignore negates much of Cho's initial tankiness.
High damage gap close helps to avoid/negate cho's abilities.
Knock up ability while silenced negates any chance of cho escaping, and disrupts any potential combing of abilities.
Able to knock cho around with ultimate to force fights in open area.
Only way I've found as Cho to survive these matchups is to tower hug and long range q/w farm, and don't leave tower range. Against xin, always keep q and hug the tower. Q will force him off you long enough to get closer to the tower to discourage him from continuing his attacks. In both cases do not lead off with q, as you need that to have any hope of escaping when you are engaged on. Best advice is to avoid this matchup completely.
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United States37500 Posts
Surprised to see this thread revived. :O
I'm not too sure about Xin countering Cho. A good Cho can Rupture when Xin dashes in, preventing Xin from getting a full Three Talon in.
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From what happens to me is that the dash and 2/3 of the talon is enough to really push me off the lane. The third attack will stay beyond the duration, so you MUST back off or eat the knockup. Your scream won't stop it as the skill is already active. Rupture alone won't help you trade at all, because the damage has already been done and you can't auto attack trade since you have armor reduction on you. Also I feel like you must count the possibility of rupture missing/dodged, and at this point cho is in real trouble. Let alone the possiblity of Xin moving in right after a rupture cast where he could be immune to silence as his talon strike and charge could both be active/used at the border of ferral scream (600 dash range vs 700 scream with cast time of .5s)
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cho'gath is like the 3rd hardest lane for wukong after lee/riven, and wukong in no way counters cho
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EPT
