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If you are making an assertion, please use the format from the OP.
Champion we're analyzing
Counters
~ Reasons
It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question.
Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc?
This thread should encourage all of you in LiquidParty to occasionally host some practice games and try out specific solo matchups. Then come back and report your findings. We can have players of various skill levels try out the matchups to get a better understanding. |
United States37500 Posts
Unlike most other gaming genres, winning a game in MOBAs (specifically League of Legends in this case) is rarely an effort of a singular individual. Even in solo queue, 5 players need to play at a cohesive level to increase the likelihood of victory.
There are several roles in LoL and playing these roles successfully puts your team at an advantage, eventually enough to seal the game as a win. The role that allows for the greatest team impact, without depending on the team itself, is obviously the solo top and solo mid lanes.
The purpose of this thread is to talk about the various matchups in solo lanes. Knowing what heroes are good/bad against champions the enemy has already picked will put you ahead of the game. Some games, even at the highest level, boils down to team comp.
Should we somehow exhaust all the possibilities of solo lane champions, we can delve into jungles and/or bot lane later. I'm choosing to focus more on the solo lanes first because they have the least variables.
Things to consider:
- Hard counter, matchups that are heavily favored for one champion over the other. Examples are Rumble vs Jax and Nidalee vs Kassadin. In both situations, the former champion has a distinct advantage over the latter.
- Soft counter, matchups that are slightly favored for one champion due to their kits. However, player skill and ability can easily balance the matchup or overturn the lane to favor the better player.
Cassiopeia has a minor advantage over Annie in lane. It's much easier for good Cass to zone the Annie with QE combo than vice versa. However, one could argue that a good Annie will focus on last hitting with her Q and long range auto, ignoring/avoiding Cass until level 6. Once Annie has Tibbers, the dynamics of the lane change greatly since Annie now has the potential to OHKO with Flash Tibber and dumping QW, Ignite.
- We are assessing champions for early game/laning phase/until the first tower is down. What happens during late game/team fights is slightly outside the scope of this argument.
Pantheon is amazing vs most Ranged DPS. However, it's rather difficult for Panth to translate his early game success into late game power and it's one of the main reasons he's not picked more often. But we don't care about Panth's awful scalability. What we want to know is that Panth pretty much dominates most Ranged DPS not named Corki.
- For the sake of argument, assume no ganks are coming. We have all played games where your team's jungler somehow manages to not gank your lane a single time in the first 15 minutes of the game. Assume it's that kind of situation.
- Lastly, we measure advantage and success in a champion's ability to zone and outfarm his enemy by a significant amount.
AD Carries
AP Carries
Cassiopeia
Hard Countered by:
~ Kassadin:
Void Stone passive makes Kass rather hardy against spell based harassment.
Null Sphere can counter Cass from maximizing her Twin Fang DPS.
At level 6, Kass with Rift Walk makes it nearly impossible for Cass to land both her poison AOEs
Soft Countered by:
Tanky DPS
Udyr
Hard Countered by:
~ Teemo:
Udyr relies on standing near the creep wave, shrugging off harass with Turtle and life stealing also with Turtle. However, Toxic shot DPS can whittle through early levels of Turtle very easily and make taking darts vs Turtle leech very unprofitable for Udyr. Up until level 3 Turtle stance and/or Wriggle's, Udyr will take more damage from poison than he can life steal back hp.
Very difficult to catch Teemo, even with Bear. Teemo can respond with Move Quick active and strategically stand behind shroom.
Blinding Shot can cause the initial Tiger Stance DPS to miss.
Soft Countered by:
~ Jax:
At best, Udyr can turn the lane into a farm war against Jax but he can't afford to go offensive. If Udyr attempts to 1v1 Jax, he has to deal with Dodge procs, Counterattack stun, and Relentless Assault makes Jax stronger by the second. A smart Jax will consistently jump on Udyr when there's a full creep wave. Jax will draw creep aggro and it will increase his Dodge procs a lot more. If he lands the Counterattack on Udyr, Jax can fit in another 1-2 auto attacks off.
Things only gets worse for Udyr once Jax finishes his Cutlass. Another burst harass every minute that also slows.
Cho > Yorick
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I can't really think of any one champion that hard counters another exact champion (mostly from my lack of experience), but I do know a few champions that get shut down by a type of champion (Melee, AP, Stealth etc).
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Vlad is hard countered by Caitlyn. He can't harass her without taking a few auto attacks and he heals for next to nothing early. If the Cait plays properly and just aggressively zones him say goodbye to gold much less xp. I once zoned a Vlad so hard in mid as Cait he hit 2 when I was 6.
I really don't see any plausible way to deal with that matchup. Even having a jungler help out isn't going to cut always since he can't hang out at the lane 24/7. Thankfully people have adopted the support/carry bottom lane and I haven't run into this in a while.
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^tbh, that just sounds like a combination of vlad vs. anybody and anybody vs. cait (which i guess you could call a hard counter, but i really wouldn't). i'm more interested if there's anybody that counters cait, because i can't really think of one. always a bitch to lane against one for me.
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Yorick could be atleast soft. With regrowth + pot spam ghouls to heal and then ghouls go after cait while you stay in safe distance and take less dmg per ghoul sent after cait.
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i disagree that jax is a soft-counter to udyr. we thought about it quite a bit last night, talking with ObamasLeftHand (1.9k Udyr and Jax player), and we decided that jax's mana costs were too high relative to the shield strength and low mana cost of turtle stance. even not factoring in the heal from turtle OR the mana regen from turtle, we don't see how jax can win the lane at all. he'll burn a ton of mana just breaking udyr's shield and drawing creep aggro, only to have udyr just auto attack a bit and get it back. jax will run dry of mana (or has to lose a lot of his rune power by speccing mp5) and then udyr just bosses the lane.
at best, jax will turn it into a farm-fest, which true, is favorable for jax. but there's no way jax ever beats udyr. a smart udyr will win the lane every time
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Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle.
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I guess I don't consider it a counter but I always pick Soraka against Karthus. 3 second silence destroys his dps and then soraka ult vs karthus ult rox my sox
Edit: it looks like you're looking more at lane counters t.t, #1 bad poster
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On July 27 2011 01:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle.
i don't think that's true though. udyr will likely have a level advantage going into jax's ult, which by the way deteriorates extremely quickly. if udyr stuns jax after his first or second hit with bear, and then turns around and walks away, jax is going to either (a)use leapstrike and precious mana to close the distance just to ult-hit a turtle-stanced udyr, or (b)lose his ult. if udyr is far enough ahead (possible, but not super likely if he stops for wriggles on the way to real items) then he's just going to stand and fight jax and crush him. yes, jax is the 1v1 king, but udyr is ALSO the 1v1 king and kicks in on his first hit, not his 10th. toss in the fact that udyr will likely run exhaust, and jax will likely run ignite, and i *still* don't see jax winning this at level 6+
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On July 27 2011 01:59 sRapers_ValkS wrote:
I guess I don't consider it a counter but I always pick Soraka against Karthus. 3 second silence destroys his dps and then soraka ult vs karthus ult rox my sox
Edit: it looks like you're looking more at lane counters t.t, #1 bad poster
Never thought of this, actually. Does silence work in his "dead but still fighting" state so that you can prevent the inevitable "ult and pick up 4 kills after teamfight?"
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he's untargettable during his post-death state, so no, you can't silence him then
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On July 27 2011 02:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:59 sRapers_ValkS wrote:
I guess I don't consider it a counter but I always pick Soraka against Karthus. 3 second silence destroys his dps and then soraka ult vs karthus ult rox my sox
Edit: it looks like you're looking more at lane counters t.t, #1 bad poster Never thought of this, actually. Does silence work in his "dead but still fighting" state so that you can prevent the inevitable "ult and pick up 4 kills after teamfight?"
Nah, that's why she has ult.
Also need confirmation on Sion>Yorick.
I admit I hit post before reading the OP through, I assume this is both referring to laning phase and teamfights, please appreciate the effort since I fucked up my masteries while writing this-.-
Teemo>Singed is a classic counterpick.
Janna/Brand>Annie/Amumu because of counterinitiation.
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Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
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Tanky DPS
Dr. Mundo
Hard Countered by:
~ Tristana:
Rocket Jump prevents Mundo from doing any reasonable damage to her unless she gets needlessly aggressive.
Her level 6 burst (especially with the Explosive Shot active) is enough to reliably kill Mundo.
~ Pantheon:
In the harass war, Spear Shot is much easier to hit than Cleaver, and does comparable damage.
In a straight up fight, Pantheon's passive will block like 2/3 of Mundo's attacks.
If someone ganks the lane, Pantheon has a stun and Mundo doesn't.
~ LeBlanc:
Mundo simply cannot get close to her, between her blink and her snare.
Mundo cannot cleaverspam while silenced.
Her burst and mobility make level 2 aggression impossible and trades past that unworthwhile.
AP Carries (or tanky AP if that's a separate category now)
Swain
Soft Countered by:
~ Garen: (this may even be a hard counter)
If Swain uses Laserbird, Garen can DEMACIA! and spin2win, clearing the slow and boosting his speed sufficiently to catch up to Swain.
The silence prevents Swain from using Laserbird/Torment after Garen pops Judgment.
Garen's passive gives him better regeneration pre-6.
Swain is forced to level Nevermove, which has an atrocious 18 second cooldown at level 1. Garen can bait a Nevermove, or even absorb it, and zone Swain until it's back up.
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Jarvan is hardcountered by brand and garen. Yi is hardcountered by mordekaiser. Teemo/Singed counter jax. Cho counters malz and WW.
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Vladimir:
Hard Countered by:
Swain (with blue)
Zones out vlad pretty hard, great sustain with a blue buff... There was a DH game where Fnatic picked Swain to counter Regi playing vlad iirc, and it worked in such an epic fashion that it amazed me.
Confirm/Deny that this can work in non-pro games?
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On July 27 2011 03:12 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Vladimir:
Hard Countered by:
Swain (with blue)
Zones out vlad pretty hard, great sustain with a blue buff... There was a DH game where Fnatic picked Swain to counter Regi playing vlad iirc, and it worked in such an epic fashion that it amazed me.
Confirm/Deny that this can work in non-pro games?
Nah its all on player skill. At least it used to be so at DH, since then swain got nerfed and vlad fell out of favor so it should still be even.
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Mordechowder rapes Yorick 6-ways from Tuesday. Always minions around you say? Yes please!
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Ashe soft counters mordekaiser, rammus also good against malz/ww.
Do malz creeps even give gold anymore?
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Yeah, they still give +12 on kill. Orianna kind of destroys most ranged AD mids like ashe/cait, but good players don't put ranged AD in mid like idiots do at my elo.
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On July 27 2011 03:41 r33k wrote:
Ashe soft counters mordekaiser
I'd really like to know how.
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On July 27 2011 03:55 spinesheath wrote:I'd really like to know how.
He pushes the wave, as he walks back you autoattack him with slow and get him low.
Heimer is pretty good vs Vayne if he's laning with a babysitter like taric or janna. Both his rockets and his grenade punish any sort of aggression.
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On July 27 2011 03:45 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Yeah, they still give +12 on kill. Orianna kind of destroys most ranged AD mids like ashe/cait, but good players don't put ranged AD in mid like idiots do at my elo.
what elo do you consider mid? I play at what I consider mid elo (<1200 = low, to gold = mid and gold + plat = high) and I havent seen a ranged AD mid in a long time. Im on US server fwiw.
btw I have to know, does cassiopea counter jarvan iv? I find this THE most frustrating matchup in the world. it's the only time I ever feel at risk trying to kill creeps with jarvan. or maybe Im just turrible
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There is no way Ashe counters Morde. The amount of autoattacks it takes Ashe to break Morde's shield means she's trading lasthits for minimal harassment damage. In fact one of the worst things you can do as Ashe vs Morde is to try to impress the Morde with your awesome kite micro then suddenly find yourself 50 cs behind and get two shotted at lv6.
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On July 27 2011 04:00 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:45 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Yeah, they still give +12 on kill. Orianna kind of destroys most ranged AD mids like ashe/cait, but good players don't put ranged AD in mid like idiots do at my elo. what elo do you consider mid? I play at what I consider mid elo (<1200 = low, to gold = mid and gold + plat = high) and I havent seen a ranged AD mid in a long time. Im on US server fwiw. btw I have to know, does cassiopea counter jarvan iv? I find this THE most frustrating matchup in the world. it's the only time I ever feel at risk trying to kill creeps with jarvan. or maybe Im just turrible
When I say mids I meant AD characters in the mid lane, not at mid ELO. People still do that at my elo, since 99% of people don't know anything. My elo is 1150 right now, dipped below bronze today cause I ended up raging at a bunch of scrubs and making them ragequit.
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On July 27 2011 03:11 r33k wrote:
Jarvan is hardcountered by brand and garen. Yi is hardcountered by mordekaiser. Teemo/Singed counter jax. Cho counters malz and WW.
How does Cho counter Malz? Malz is just going to farm 24/7 and can easily push the wave before Cho can reliably insta clear it. What is Cho going to do? It's not like you're just going to eat a Rupture or get in range of Scream when you can farm from long range.
Can we please stick to NeoIllusions' format? People throwing around "X counters Y" doesn't really mean anything. At the very least, give a slightly detailed explanation on how the lane is supposed to go and why, so that we can start a useful discussion.
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Is it my imagination combined with bad play, or does Maokai hard counter Lanewick? I experienced this lane for the first time over the weekend and got rocked. Not sure how I was supposed to handle it, but shrugging off the EW burst damage wasn't working lol.
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Maokai is definitely not mana efficient enough to beat Lanewick IMHO, though I haven't played the matchup. He probably does really well if he gets ganks because he's so boss at supporting ganks, but I don't see how he could succeed 1v1 vs. Lanewick's sustainability.
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On July 27 2011 03:41 r33k wrote:
Ashe soft counters mordekaiser, rammus also good against malz/ww.
Do malz creeps even give gold anymore?
??
I would shit on rammus so hard as malz.
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On July 27 2011 03:45 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Yeah, they still give +12 on kill. Orianna kind of destroys most ranged AD mids like ashe/cait, but good players don't put ranged AD in mid like idiots do at my elo.
Good players don't do what everybody else does just because other people do it then rage at others for not doing what everyone else does.
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On July 27 2011 04:40 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:41 r33k wrote:
Ashe soft counters mordekaiser, rammus also good against malz/ww.
Do malz creeps even give gold anymore? ?? I would shit on rammus so hard as malz.
I wasn't referring to lanes. Who the fuck solo lanes rammus to begin with.
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On July 27 2011 04:56 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:40 Craton wrote:On July 27 2011 03:41 r33k wrote:
Ashe soft counters mordekaiser, rammus also good against malz/ww.
Do malz creeps even give gold anymore? ?? I would shit on rammus so hard as malz. I wasn't referring to lanes. Who the fuck solo lanes rammus to begin with.
then don't put it in this thread. this is a laning counterpick thread. read the OP
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On July 27 2011 04:34 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is definitely not mana efficient enough to beat Lanewick IMHO, though I haven't played the matchup. He probably does really well if he gets ganks because he's so boss at supporting ganks, but I don't see how he could succeed 1v1 vs. Lanewick's sustainability.
That's what I thought, too! I kept waiting for him to run outta mana (tbh I'm not sure where his mana was coming from. I didn't pay attention to his summoners... maybe he had clarity), and kept thinking my Q is keeping me alive. But his EW hit much harder than my Q and he was the one shrugging off my damage. Maybe if I'd rushed null-magic mantle and never Q'd creeps so his passive would be less effective?
All I know is that my "I'mma rely on WW's sustainability!!!" ended with me 0-2-0 at top with my turret down and me cursing myself for buying Philostone before Chalice. My team wasn't too pleased either, lol.
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On July 27 2011 05:05 Tadzio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 04:34 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is definitely not mana efficient enough to beat Lanewick IMHO, though I haven't played the matchup. He probably does really well if he gets ganks because he's so boss at supporting ganks, but I don't see how he could succeed 1v1 vs. Lanewick's sustainability. That's what I thought, too! I kept waiting for him to run outta mana (tbh I'm not sure where his mana was coming from. I didn't pay attention to his summoners... maybe he had clarity), and kept thinking my Q is keeping me alive. But his EW hit much harder than my Q and he was the one shrugging off my damage. Maybe if I'd rushed null-magic mantle and never Q'd creeps so his passive would be less effective? All I know is that my "I'mma rely on WW's sustainability!!!" ended with me 0-2-0 at top with my turret down and me cursing myself for buying Philostone before Chalice. My team wasn't too pleased either, lol.
I know that when I play Yorick v. Maokai, Maokai is one of the very few champs I can't completely boss around in lane. The reason is simply because of dat passive. 7% max hp heal is just so goddam strong when it's up pretty much 99% of the time.
I have a feeling that's probably the same deal with WW v. Maokai. Every time WW Q's you, Mao can retaliate with EW, that's 3 stacks right there. This means the majority of exchanges will proc Mao's passive and he'll just heal up in tandem with WW. Of course, you'll need the mp/5 as Mao to keep up, but I'm guessing if you run lots of mp/5 runes and stack 2-3 Dorans you should be able to do pretty well...
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I'm hugely struggling to find someone other then annie to play but as her I really struggle against Ranged AD heros plus brand. I'm perfectly fine with all mele and I'm 100% sure that annie alongside someone with another stun (taric fiddle alistar) will welp any mele hero. Her nuke just puts down so much damage that all she needs is another buddie to finish off whats left or draw them down a little more to where I can just take the kill myself.
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On July 27 2011 04:00 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:55 spinesheath wrote:On July 27 2011 03:41 r33k wrote:
Ashe soft counters mordekaiser I'd really like to know how. He pushes the wave, as he walks back you autoattack him with slow and get him low.
He pushes the wave, you autoattack him 3 times just to break his shield. During that time you have 6 minions attacking you for well over 100 damage, and at this point Morde just turns around and unloads all his spells that are now off cooldown. His AoE has enough range to hit Ashe even when she is kiting perfectly. There's no way you're gonna beat a Morde like that.
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On July 27 2011 02:44 Haemonculus wrote:
Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
If you take an early level in W you can drop that after he comes out of alpha, then chase him with Es and Q once it comes off cd. I haven't played vs a Yi though (but I do a similar thing vs Jax), so if he beats you before level 4 you probably have to not use Q to harass and save it to punish alpha. It should be pretty easy to land since it shows where he's going to pop out. After 6 if he tries that I think you can just ult and kill him, since I believe (not sure) Yi comes out of alpha facing his target.
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Rumble:
Hard countered by:
Maokai. His passive negates any harass you attempt and he can harass you back freely while shrugging off any damage with the passive. The best you can really do is wait til you see his passive is up and spam skills until he hits something.
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Hmm... you guys make me re-think that tree...
So, I'm asking: which common solo top champ hard counters Maokai and why?
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On July 27 2011 05:50 r.Evo wrote:
Hmm... you guys make me re-think that tree...
So, I'm asking: which common solo top champ hard counters Maokai and why?
Probably Teemo.
He doesn't spam spells, so he won't power Mao's passive. His autoattack harass can start at lvl 1 and attempt to gain a large edge immediately. The only weakness I can see is the fact that he's so damn squishy. If Mao can land several E+Ws Teemo's pretty much dead. So I guess it'd be more of a soft counter than anything, and it'll really depend on runing and player skill.
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mogwai the next time you stop by can you let me know your thoughts on jarvan vs cass?
I call for a laneswitch, honestly, because I feel helpless against her with j4.
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On July 26 2011 22:54 goldenkrnboi wrote:
^tbh, that just sounds like a combination of vlad vs. anybody and anybody vs. cait (which i guess you could call a hard counter, but i really wouldn't). i'm more interested if there's anybody that counters cait, because i can't really think of one. always a bitch to lane against one for me.
This is kinda late, but the reason I say Cait specifically is her auto range, passive, and traps. It is impossible to do anything to her. With Vlad's terrible range you can't hit her with any spells, so the answer would be to play passive and farm. However once she sets up some zone control with traps your movement is severely limited and her range allows her to even attack you under your tower unless you hide all the way behind it, out of farm range.
I know Vlad is really weak in lane, but Cait is definitely the worst matchup I've ever experienced, outshining Zil and Kass.
I would put out there that in my experience, Zilean fares really well against Caitlyn. Bombs have more range than her auto and he can speed boost away from her harass.
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United States37500 Posts
A side note, if you are making an assertion, please put it in the format that I've used in the OP.
Champion we're analyzing
Counters
~ Reasons
It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question.
Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc.
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Tanky DPS
Udyr
Hard Countered by:
~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him.
I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him.
In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr.
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Disclaimer. I suck. At my best I was 1430. I was never less than 1390, but take that shit into account.
Lanewick
Hard-Counters
Maokai-
Reasons~ EW rapes me and my Q (occasionally W) feeds his passive. Either I shoulda been more passive or more aggressive at level 1-5. And I have no clue which. Definitely I shoulda stayed away from creeps (doubles the usefulness of his E) and rushed chalice. If you have successful experience with this matchup, speak up. I'm listening.
On July 27 2011 09:31 NeoIllusions wrote:
A side note, if you are making an assertion, please put it in the format that I've used in the OP.
Champion we're analyzing
Counters
~ Reasons
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On July 27 2011 09:42 exo6yte wrote:
Tanky DPS
Udyr
Hard Countered by:
~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him.
I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him.
In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr.
What if he just sits and hits creep while in turtle stance? You're not going to kill an Udyr that plays passively and just farms. At most, Garen ties v. Udyr. If you try to take the initiative, he should have enough time to bear stun you. Then move away. Then he just turtles and heals up all damage taken.
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does malz get hard countered by anything? there's a couple of lanes he can't win, but nothing so serious that he'd get zoned. puddle and voidlings make it so you can't trade autos with him, and his harass is just as good as most others.
even urgot and leblanc can be dealt with cause you can punish missed E pretty hard, and your silences outranges leblanc, so it turns into a guessing game thing. not easy, but not impossible either.
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United States37500 Posts
On July 27 2011 10:02 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 09:42 exo6yte wrote:
Tanky DPS
Udyr
Hard Countered by:
~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him.
I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him.
In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr. What if he just sits and hits creep while in turtle stance? You're not going to kill an Udyr that plays passively and just farms. At most, Garen ties v. Udyr. If you try to take the initiative, he should have enough time to bear stun you. Then move away. Then he just turtles and heals up all damage taken.
It's hard to say. If Garen lands Decisive Strike first, Udyr is going to eat a near full Judgment, without getting to Bear, stun, run away. And he can't Turtle to mitigate the spin. It is highly dependent on the Udyr player's reaction skills but all in all, I would say it's easier for the Garen to stand near the creep wave and surprise Q whenever.
Udyr can't afford to go offensive with Bear either. After stun, Garen can QE and it'll most likely do more damage to Udyr than Udyr did in return. Not to mention to be offensive, Udyr needs all 3 Stances. Any two won't be enough.
Garen's greatest strength however is that his skills have no cost. He can harass Udyr as soon as his CD is up. Udyr has to heal up with Turtle and all his stances take mana to activate.
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On July 27 2011 10:15 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 10:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 27 2011 09:42 exo6yte wrote:
Tanky DPS
Udyr
Hard Countered by:
~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him.
I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him.
In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr. What if he just sits and hits creep while in turtle stance? You're not going to kill an Udyr that plays passively and just farms. At most, Garen ties v. Udyr. If you try to take the initiative, he should have enough time to bear stun you. Then move away. Then he just turtles and heals up all damage taken. It's hard to say. If Garen lands Decisive Strike first, Udyr is going to eat a near full Judgment, without getting to Bear, stun, run away. And he can't Turtle to mitigate the spin. It is highly dependent on the Udyr player's reaction skills but all in all, I would say it's easier for the Garen to stand near the creep wave and surprise Q whenever. Udyr can't afford to go offensive with Bear either. After stun, Garen can QE and it'll most likely do more damage to Udyr than Udyr did in return. Not to mention to be offensive, Udyr needs all 3 Stances. Any two won't be enough. Garen's greatest strength however is that his skills have no cost. He can harass Udyr as soon as his CD is up. Udyr has to heal up with Turtle and all his stances take mana to activate.
Well Udyr could just play super passive. Sit in turtle all the time and never stance change unless Garen activates Q. You should have enough time to switch to bear stance before you get hit by the silence. The 1 second stun should be enough for turtle to get off cooldown and give you enough distance from garen such that you can turtle before you take too much damage from the follow up.
You'd definitely want to stay away from the bushes tho if Garen is controlling them.
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Sorry Neo, I'll try to condense and support my points in the framework provided.
Vladimir
Hard Counter
Caitlyn
Cait counters Vlad with her auto range, passive, and traps. It is impossible to do anything to her with Vlad's short range, you can't hit her with any spells without taking shots. Your q range is 600 which is 50 less than her auto range. E is also 30 short at 620. Your q heals for 15 at level one, while 1 auto from her will do ~60 (non headshot). Q then goes on a 12 second cooldown during which you have no answer to her harass.
So normally the answer would be to play passive and farm. However once she sets up some zone control with traps your movement is severely limited and her range allows her to even attack you under your tower unless you hide all the way behind it, out of farm range. With no way to win a trade Vlad has no chance to get to his later levels where this would even out.
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Karma
Personally, from my experience, I think Karma might be the most dominate solo laner in the game. With ganks in play, she becomes significantly less potent because she has very limited escape potential, but with no ganks, I don't really see her losing many lanes.
Counters
Caitlin?
Karma has a tough time with Caitlin due to Cait's imba early game auto attack harass.
Yorick?
Karma might have a few problems with Yorick, but after the most recent nerf I think she can generally outlast him. Also, if a Yorick does aggressively try to harass Karma, he leaves himself very open to a gank with little escape potential.
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On July 27 2011 10:09 Kaneh wrote:
does malz get hard countered by anything? there's a couple of lanes he can't win, but nothing so serious that he'd get zoned. puddle and voidlings make it so you can't trade autos with him, and his harass is just as good as most others.
even urgot and leblanc can be dealt with cause you can punish missed E pretty hard, and your silences outranges leblanc, so it turns into a guessing game thing. not easy, but not impossible either.
I don't know about hard counters but Annie and Alistar are kind of difficult to play against as Malz. Annie obviously has the threat of flash ult, and Alistar can wreck you in team fights since there's really no way to prevent him from disrupting your channeled supression ult.
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How do the likes of Ryze and Kennen fare against solotop sustain hero these days? Are their early game consistent harass enough to boss out the tanky DPS?
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I guess I have to go play more solo mid kogmaw, hes definitely a wrench in the gears to what a lot of champs you wouldn't think, but he's so skill based. Honestly, landing artillery each time it costs 45 mana destroys any enemy sustain, and maxing E then W makes it really difficult if hes playing well.
Though off days are fairly common for people who main kog'maw, and it just seems like you're just trying to land your death explosion well some games.
Taric+Kog OP!
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should be talking about concepts instead of specific heros imo
like longer range owns shorter range(DERP WE KNOW THAT ALREADY LOCO)
annie mid gets owned by champs with longer range such as brand,orinana,etc
a more outdated example is sivir mid getting owned by shit like trist and ashe
also champs unable to creep clear properly gets owned by pushers
ill use annie as an example again
annie vs morde in mid lane,morde can push the lane all the way up to tower from level 1 and ward both sides and can clear opposing side's wraith or gank other lanes w/o annie being able to call mia till late due to creeps being all the way up to her tower
another example anivia owns kayle in mid
dont exchange hits till 6 and once u hit 6 just clear waves and gank other lanes
heals own shield in lane
carry + soraka owns carry + janna in lane
due to infinitate sustain being able to outlast janna lane eventually
just some concepts to think about~
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On July 27 2011 12:46 locodoco wrote:
should be talking about concepts instead of specific heros imo
like longer range owns shorter range(DERP WE KNOW THAT ALREADY LOCO)
annie mid gets owned by champs with longer range such as brand,orinana,etc
a more outdated example is sivir mid getting owned by shit like trist and ashe
also champs unable to creep clear properly gets owned by pushers
ill use annie as an example again
annie vs morde in mid lane,morde can push the lane all the way up to tower from level 1 and ward both sides and can clear opposing side's wraith or gank other lanes w/o annie being able to call mia till late due to creeps being all the way up to her tower
another example anivia owns kayle in mid
dont exchange hits till 6 and once u hit 6 just clear waves and gank other lanes
heals own shield in lane
carry + soraka owns carry + janna in lane
due to infinitate sustain being able to outlast janna lane eventually
just some concepts to think about~
Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of traditional mid lanes get rolled over trololol style by pushers like morde even when they kind of shouldn't lose at all... I also agree with heals > shield in lane, I had teammates lose a janna+corki lane to TARIC+SORAKA since they just couldn't keep up with the sustain. Of course you should never lose to a dual support lane, but the concept is still valid, just as an extension of the trend to run incredibly sustainable laners in solo top...
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant.
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On July 27 2011 12:15 rob.au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 10:09 Kaneh wrote:
does malz get hard countered by anything? there's a couple of lanes he can't win, but nothing so serious that he'd get zoned. puddle and voidlings make it so you can't trade autos with him, and his harass is just as good as most others.
even urgot and leblanc can be dealt with cause you can punish missed E pretty hard, and your silences outranges leblanc, so it turns into a guessing game thing. not easy, but not impossible either. I don't know about hard counters but Annie and Alistar are kind of difficult to play against as Malz. Annie obviously has the threat of flash ult, and Alistar can wreck you in team fights since there's really no way to prevent him from disrupting your channeled supression ult.
This thread is about laning, not teamfighting.
Come on people.
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On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant.
I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing.
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Exchanging true damage with cloth armor?
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Irelia
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant.
lol no, not at all. Jarvan vs irelia is just a farm lane. Jarvan has more beefiness but irelia has more sustain. Plus vs jarvan you usually want to max w first = more sustain and more true damage. Armor is worthless vs true damage so basically it makes his passive armor and cloth armor null and void.
Irelia is countered by malzahar though. He can simply outharass her healing and can do it from a pretty decent range too. Although malzahar is like that in most lanes.
Mundo also actually can beat irelia, but it all depends on skill there. Basically, irelia needs to dodge the cleavers and use her e stun really well to be able to win. It's always very very close.
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Nothing really hard counters Irelia except maybe Yorick, or I just don't know how to lane vs Yorick.
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Jarvan can't really counter irelia, his EQ does a lot of burst damage but then you use E to stun, activate hiten style and do all the damage back while healing yourself. You also regen faster on creeps when you are both waiting for cooldowns, and jarvan can't keep attacking because hiten style gives you better sustain damage. The only thing is if you can harass irelia enough that you can EQ and she can't afford to fight back you will win.
Also you can dodge EQ with your own Q.
Yorick doesn't hard counter irelia you just max hiten style you noob. Sure you won't get full cs but he will run out of mana trying to kill you even with tears. Get philo+more pots on your first back. When he is oom you can just start raping him before he regens his mana back.
Yorick has free farm while harassing but irelia is stronger later anyway.
In fact the answer to any "X counters irelia" is "irelia just maxes hiten style and regens everything at tower". The exception being Garen because garen is fucking OP against melees with no harass. :D
Jarvan does fine against garen, irelia not so much because she needs to get in range and you just Q E and spam it non stop.
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On July 26 2011 22:54 goldenkrnboi wrote:
^tbh, that just sounds like a combination of vlad vs. anybody and anybody vs. cait (which i guess you could call a hard counter, but i really wouldn't). i'm more interested if there's anybody that counters cait, because i can't really think of one. always a bitch to lane against one for me.
Caitlyn
Counter Maoki
Ability to heal minor damage taken via passive
Safe harassment from outside of her range via sapling
Extreme burst punishment once she overextends even just a little
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Mordekasier
Wukong
Gap closer with inital damage
Strong single target attack couple with a few autos to take down shield and deal health damage
Quick escape to avoid excessive damage.
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On July 27 2011 02:03 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle. i don't think that's true though. udyr will likely have a level advantage going into jax's ult, which by the way deteriorates extremely quickly. if udyr stuns jax after his first or second hit with bear, and then turns around and walks away, jax is going to either (a)use leapstrike and precious mana to close the distance just to ult-hit a turtle-stanced udyr, or (b)lose his ult. if udyr is far enough ahead (possible, but not super likely if he stops for wriggles on the way to real items) then he's just going to stand and fight jax and crush him. yes, jax is the 1v1 king, but udyr is ALSO the 1v1 king and kicks in on his first hit, not his 10th. toss in the fact that udyr will likely run exhaust, and jax will likely run ignite, and i *still* don't see jax winning this at level 6+
Jax can win melee-sustain lanes (Udyr, Jarman, Irelia, Xin) by ranking up empower past 1, or even maxing it while leaving leap strike at 1, as auto-attack+empower for an instant second hit is a hefty burst for only 20(!) mana, plus benefits from the AD runes that all Jaxs have. It doesn't get much more efficient than that, unless you're level 6 and you hit a creep first, then run/jump to udyr, auto+empower for the third ult hit.
Leveling up empower makes Jax more vulnerable to ganks, however I think that with the nerf to leapstrike base damage, early empower is the way to win some lanes. Not enough to beat yorick pre-patch, haven't tried vs. him post-patch.
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On July 27 2011 18:59 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Nothing really hard counters Irelia except maybe Yorick, or I just don't know how to lane vs Yorick.
Only played that matchup once, and yes, Yorick harrassed me really hard from lvl 1-3 or so. However, after I got lvl 6 and my philo, I was able to clearly outharrass Yorick and pick up 2 kills on him as well, so I'm not sure if he beats Irelia all the way. If he attacks with just one ghoul, you can attack it and the W procs should outheal the damage it deals
On July 27 2011 20:38 Prisoner wrote:
Mordekasier
Wukong
Gap closer with inital damage
Strong single target attack couple with a few autos to take down shield and deal health damage
Quick escape to avoid excessive damage.
Can't help but disagree, Wukong shouldn't be able to clear the shield if Morde plays it out correctly, and is going to take a lot of damage from Mordekaisers skills whenever he gets close. Wukong also has 0 natural sustainability.
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On July 27 2011 20:50 Flakes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:03 gtrsrs wrote:On July 27 2011 01:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle. i don't think that's true though. udyr will likely have a level advantage going into jax's ult, which by the way deteriorates extremely quickly. if udyr stuns jax after his first or second hit with bear, and then turns around and walks away, jax is going to either (a)use leapstrike and precious mana to close the distance just to ult-hit a turtle-stanced udyr, or (b)lose his ult. if udyr is far enough ahead (possible, but not super likely if he stops for wriggles on the way to real items) then he's just going to stand and fight jax and crush him. yes, jax is the 1v1 king, but udyr is ALSO the 1v1 king and kicks in on his first hit, not his 10th. toss in the fact that udyr will likely run exhaust, and jax will likely run ignite, and i *still* don't see jax winning this at level 6+ Jax can win melee-sustain lanes (Udyr, Jarman, Irelia, Xin) by ranking up empower past 1, or even maxing it while leaving leap strike at 1, as auto-attack+empower for an instant second hit is a hefty burst for only 20(!) mana, plus benefits from the AD runes that all Jaxs have. It doesn't get much more efficient than that, unless you're level 6 and you hit a creep first, then run/jump to udyr, auto+empower for the third ult hit. Leveling up empower makes Jax more vulnerable to ganks, however I think that with the nerf to leapstrike base damage, early empower is the way to win some lanes. Not enough to beat yorick pre-patch, haven't tried vs. him post-patch.
how do you plan on landing the second (or even first) hit without leapstrike though? and if you don't level leapstrike then it's CD is 13s. that's like 4 turtle stances for udyr to regen through
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On July 27 2011 16:05 RetZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing.
Yes, Hiten Style is a passive+active ability. Activating true damage gives you no healing for those attacks.
Passive: Health restoration per attack.
Active: True damage on attack.
I guess you could consider it more of a soft counter than a hard counter, but Irelia simply can't trade hits with Jarvan since his EQ+autoattack combo will proc his % of current hp passive plus reduce Irelias armor for that attack. If irelia opens cloth+5, that's an excess amount of money dropped on potions for a super-sustainable laner, where you've opened regrowth and can build that into philo which is immediately useful for you. Essentially you've put her behind in itemization since opening cloth does not build into something useful to her past the initial few levels.
After you've taken lane dominance through trading hits, you can out last hit her with jarvan's beautiful attack animation and proceed to win the lane....
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On July 27 2011 22:37 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 16:05 RetZ wrote:On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing. Yes, Hiten Style is a passive+active ability. Activating true damage gives you no healing for those attacks. Passive: Health restoration per attack. Active: True damage on attack.
You do heal even when the ability is active.
Insert comment about actually trying it before you attempt to correct someone.
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On July 27 2011 22:40 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 22:37 HyperionDreamer wrote:On July 27 2011 16:05 RetZ wrote:On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing. Yes, Hiten Style is a passive+active ability. Activating true damage gives you no healing for those attacks. Passive: Health restoration per attack. Active: True damage on attack. You do heal even when the ability is active. Insert comment about actually trying it before you attempt to correct someone.
I've played a hundred plus games with irelia, and I've never noticed the healing getting applied on true damage attacks. Strange, does that happen for every passive/active ability in the whole game?
Even stipulating that healing does apply on true damage, I still don't see irelia being able to trade combos with Jarvan. An EW combo only stuns for 1 second at level 1, and also costs 90 or 100 mana IIRC, which is one third of her mana pool at early levels. One second of stun is only enough for one autoattack which will apply true damage, and irelia loses the damage trade.
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On July 27 2011 23:37 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 22:40 Shikyo wrote:On July 27 2011 22:37 HyperionDreamer wrote:On July 27 2011 16:05 RetZ wrote:On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Irelia
Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV
~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence.
Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing. Yes, Hiten Style is a passive+active ability. Activating true damage gives you no healing for those attacks. Passive: Health restoration per attack. Active: True damage on attack. You do heal even when the ability is active. Insert comment about actually trying it before you attempt to correct someone. I've played a hundred plus games with irelia, and I've never noticed the healing getting applied on true damage attacks. Strange, does that happen for every passive/active ability in the whole game?
no, it doesn't
many skills turn off the passive when the active is activated
just check the tooltip to see which do what (like xin's passive which used to go down when the active was on cooldown, etc)
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Javran wins before 6. Irelia recovers/wins after 6. The end.
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Jarman wins before 6, then snowballs hard enough that Irelia can't catch up.
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On July 27 2011 21:12 Shikyo wrote:
Can't help but disagree, Wukong shouldn't be able to clear the shield if Morde plays it out correctly, and is going to take a lot of damage from Mordekaisers skills whenever he gets close. Wukong also has 0 natural sustainability.
Key to beating morde in lane is the ability to constantly harrass, health pots take care of wukongs lack of sustainability early game. Repeated E,Q,W combo attacks occur so quickly that there is little time to react to them, morde may get of one of his attacks if he is lucky and his auto attack animation is painfully slow. Wukongs strength is his speed.
Granted I only played against 2 mordes last night but I was surprised at his ability to push morde around.
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If morde buys health pots and starts with armor, you will run oom pretty fast without getting anywhere.
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On July 27 2011 05:32 unsoundlogic wrote:
Rumble:
Hard countered by:
Maokai. His passive negates any harass you attempt and he can harass you back freely while shrugging off any damage with the passive. The best you can really do is wait til you see his passive is up and spam skills until he hits something.
Not true imho, he is soft countered if anything if that tbh, meaning if played well they both will survive but rumble won't get killed if played ok. He's annoying to play vs but rumble can still gank you at certain times. So here is my experience instead.
Rumble
Hard countered by:
Brand. His dmg and stun makes it impossible for you to gank or chase him if he's good, you can never engage and do any good damage while he can stun and zone you however much he wants if played well.
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why.
Soft countered by: Meaning you cannot kill them whatever they do almost and although they might not be able to kill you they can farm freely and pretty much ignore you.
Lanewick, nothing to do vs that lifesteal
Udyr, shield and lifesteal
There are some other chars that almost falls into this category as well but they are nothing special really, like morde, cho-gath etc and nocturne, basically characters with shields and life steal.
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On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why.
Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that.
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Soft countered by: Meaning you cannot kill them whatever they do almost and although they might not be able to kill you they can farm freely and pretty much ignore you.
Lanewick, nothing to do vs that lifesteal
Udyr, shield and lifesteal
There are some other chars that almost falls into this category as well but they are nothing special really, like morde, cho-gath etc and nocturne, basically characters with shields and life steal.
Rumble Excels at handling sustain characters I have virtually no problem with all those you listed. His flame spitter is near constant damage on them and your W allows for quick escapes while its on cooldown. If they attack E and W out then return with Q. I find sustains the easiest to push around on rumble and collect kills from.
I will agree on garen he hard counters me and I can't really explain why. If you play a safe game I can survive but severely under farmed.
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On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that.
Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan.
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I actually found Jarman vs. Garen impossible. You can't jump on him or you lose the burst trade and he seems to outlast you otherwise. Free farm fest at best IMO.
In theory Teemo should eat Garen up, but I honestly haven't had to lane vs. Garen very much recently.
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On July 28 2011 01:05 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 21:12 Shikyo wrote:
Can't help but disagree, Wukong shouldn't be able to clear the shield if Morde plays it out correctly, and is going to take a lot of damage from Mordekaisers skills whenever he gets close. Wukong also has 0 natural sustainability. Key to beating morde in lane is the ability to constantly harrass, health pots take care of wukongs lack of sustainability early game. Repeated E,Q,W combo attacks occur so quickly that there is little time to react to them, morde may get of one of his attacks if he is lucky and his auto attack animation is painfully slow. Wukongs strength is his speed. Granted I only played against 2 mordes last night but I was surprised at his ability to push morde around.
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones.
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On July 28 2011 02:44 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +
Soft countered by: Meaning you cannot kill them whatever they do almost and although they might not be able to kill you they can farm freely and pretty much ignore you.
Lanewick, nothing to do vs that lifesteal
Udyr, shield and lifesteal
There are some other chars that almost falls into this category as well but they are nothing special really, like morde, cho-gath etc and nocturne, basically characters with shields and life steal.
Rumble Excels at handling sustain characters I have virtually no problem with all those you listed. His flame spitter is near constant damage on them and your W allows for quick escapes while its on cooldown. If they attack E and W out then return with Q. I find sustains the easiest to push around on rumble and collect kills from. I will agree on garen he hard counters me and I can't really explain why. If you play a safe game I can survive but severely under farmed.
That is not true, you just have not played vs good enough players I've played rumble now 300+ games and laned 1v1 vs almost anyone more than a couple of times. They can never kill you if you don't make a big mistake but an udyr not commiting to killing you but just playing carefully and consitent you just can't kill him. Had a game yesterday where we both were 0-0-0 on lvl 16, I couldn't damage him and he couldn't trap me. Lanewick is just impossible as well if he's good, don't know why but I was amazed at it, he's even better at it than udyr at least before the patch, not sure about now.
The thing with rumble, he is pretty much uncounterable except by brand. You most often can't kill him if he doesn't fuck up or get ganked by jungle, the way to counter him is to deny him kills and he will fade away as the game progresses as his lategame is not that great.
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Speaking of garen, I laned against him top with lee-sin and we broke about even with constant aggression, that was a fun lane.
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On July 27 2011 22:33 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:50 Flakes wrote:On July 27 2011 02:03 gtrsrs wrote:On July 27 2011 01:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jax wins once he hits 6. His ultimate simply does more damage than udyr can handle. i don't think that's true though. udyr will likely have a level advantage going into jax's ult, which by the way deteriorates extremely quickly. if udyr stuns jax after his first or second hit with bear, and then turns around and walks away, jax is going to either (a)use leapstrike and precious mana to close the distance just to ult-hit a turtle-stanced udyr, or (b)lose his ult. if udyr is far enough ahead (possible, but not super likely if he stops for wriggles on the way to real items) then he's just going to stand and fight jax and crush him. yes, jax is the 1v1 king, but udyr is ALSO the 1v1 king and kicks in on his first hit, not his 10th. toss in the fact that udyr will likely run exhaust, and jax will likely run ignite, and i *still* don't see jax winning this at level 6+ Jax can win melee-sustain lanes (Udyr, Jarman, Irelia, Xin) by ranking up empower past 1, or even maxing it while leaving leap strike at 1, as auto-attack+empower for an instant second hit is a hefty burst for only 20(!) mana, plus benefits from the AD runes that all Jaxs have. It doesn't get much more efficient than that, unless you're level 6 and you hit a creep first, then run/jump to udyr, auto+empower for the third ult hit. Leveling up empower makes Jax more vulnerable to ganks, however I think that with the nerf to leapstrike base damage, early empower is the way to win some lanes. Not enough to beat yorick pre-patch, haven't tried vs. him post-patch. how do you plan on landing the second (or even first) hit without leapstrike though? and if you don't level leapstrike then it's CD is 13s. that's like 4 turtle stances for udyr to regen through
How do I land hits on melee champions? O.o
If they run away, then you farm...
If you want to try it out message me in game, I like practicing my Jax and I'd rather be proven wrong in a practice game than in a ranked game.
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On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan.
Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right?
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On July 28 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones.
Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone  . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam.
On July 28 2011 03:57 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan. Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right?
So there is no hard counter for Garen then?
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ranged champion who wards the brush in the lane rapes garen.
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On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones. Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:57 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan. Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right? So there is no hard counter for Garen then?
Speaking from the experience of nothing, vayne? Or does she not penetrate the shield well enough?
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam.
You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps.
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On July 28 2011 05:34 Mogwai wrote:
ranged champion who wards the brush in the lane rapes garen.
which brush do you personally ward, j/w? the one closer to your tower or theirs? i assume yours but i just wanna get dat confirmation
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On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps.
Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
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depends on the balance of the lane. Preferably my side though.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 28 2011 06:00 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps. Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
1) Morde's going to W something at the start of the wave. That's going to give him pretty constant shield generation until the wave clears. If that something is himself, it'll also buffer his mitigation stats.
2) Why would Morde stick around after clearing creeps unless he knows he has enough shield to trade with you, or knows he can win a fight with you tanking the 6+ enemy creeps that are also there, given that he just cleared all your creeps?
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i stick by the assertion that i made months and months ago when i was advising shen as a solo top, which now holds true for any other strong level 1 champ. if you're aggressive from level 1 you'll beat mordekaiser. if you wait til level 2 or 3 to start your harass you've already lost the lane. it's pretty much that simple
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On July 28 2011 06:00 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:51 TheYango wrote:On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. You're suggesting a melee champ vs Morde. Generally lasthitting and harassing with melee champs involves being close to creeps. Well I generally wait until he casts it then rush in take down the shield and a small chunk of his health then move back out. Also you have that small window where morde will be with out enemy creeps in which you can punish him.
Your idea of punishing is taking a non-deflecting Q smash to the face?
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good mordes seem to not take any chances at early levels vs. strong early level laners in my experience.
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Hmm. I have sorta wondered what are the counters (if any) to Brand. I have a very tough time laning against him on a bunch of my characters.
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On July 28 2011 06:11 gtrsrs wrote:
i stick by the assertion that i made months and months ago when i was advising shen as a solo top, which now holds true for any other strong level 1 champ. if you're aggressive from level 1 you'll beat mordekaiser. if you wait til level 2 or 3 to start your harass you've already lost the lane. it's pretty much that simple
Annie beats morde really horribly, imo(from my limited experience vs mordes). Whenever you have a stun you just combo him and it's going to chip away at his health. Got first blood vs both mordes at lvl 3-4 but yeah morde only gets strong after like lvl 3 and there definitely is a window of opportunity
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Morde is weak from levels like 1-3 when his shield has like no hp. But past that, he can just sit in the goddam creep wave and QWE you every time you attempt to harass or last hit. There's no rule saying he has to use his spells on creep. Only bad Mordes or in matchups where it's a farmfest do that.
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Yep. Wrong thread. Frustration made me do it.
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On July 28 2011 10:16 Aurdon wrote:
own3d.tv is such a piece of shit. I really hate that the general LoL community has adopted it for their streaming purposes.
Wrong thread?
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On July 28 2011 05:25 Prisoner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
False. Boots first morde with 3 pots will destroy virtually anyone without innate sustain. Even if you do cut the shield the damage you have to take as he stands in a creep wave with his shield up and e-ing you whenever its up is WAY more than you can do to him. Especially since he can sustain with pots. And it only gets worse as he levels since morde gains defensive stats faster than you can gain offensive ones. Wait you stand near your creeps when your laning vs morde? Yeah that would lead to morde raping anyone . I always stand far enough behind or to the side of them so I don't take the constant E spam. Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:57 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 02:45 Prisoner wrote:On July 28 2011 01:58 Sponkz wrote:On July 28 2011 01:35 Yttrasil wrote:
Possibly also Garen though I cannot really explain why. Garen is a hard counter to everything but Jarvan, we all know that. Is Jarvan the best counter for him can you list some more? I have had hella problems laning against him lately. Or at least explain how to counter him with Jarvan. Well Garen is the leader of the Demacian Millitary thus making him invurnable to deaths against everyone except Jarvan IV, as he is the Demacian king's son. Makes sense right? So there is no hard counter for Garen then?
Jarvan is a hard counter to Garen?
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Trolling aside garen tends to beat most melees because his base burst damage is obscene and unless you can trade even with him he can keep doing it. Most ranged can kill him, though.
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He beats many AP carries aswell, if they're running Double AP.
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In a duolane Janna works nicely
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On July 29 2011 00:07 rwrzr wrote:
In a duolane Janna works nicely
As long as the lane doesn't get denied or outfarmed, but she's the weakest botlane support imho
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On July 29 2011 01:46 Shikyo wrote:As long as the lane doesn't get denied or outfarmed, but she's the weakest botlane support imho
I think this highly depends on what you lane with and against her. If your opponents have a healing reduction (mf, trist) then janna suddenly becomes super interesting. Also if you have AD scalings on your carry like ashe/cait.
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I feel like Janna pantheon might be a pretty legit pseudo-counter to the EU bot lane meta. Pan is pretty strong against ad as it is, and dat shield is awesome when you're jumping on people and being Pantheon and stuff.
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On July 29 2011 04:16 Odds wrote:
I feel like Janna pantheon might be a pretty legit pseudo-counter to the EU bot lane meta. Pan is pretty strong against ad as it is, and dat shield is awesome when you're jumping on people and being Pantheon and stuff.
oh hey, that's the lane utah and I were stomping with a couple weeks ago, herpdederp
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Sorry streams don't work on my shitty computer so I had no idea smashturkey 
Any insights to offer? I just got panth and love him dearly but IDK what kind of lanes to put him in or how to itemize or anything and IDK if anything in the old thread still applies.
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you have to ward early and often in the lane since you need to force aggression and you're vulnerable to jungle ganks. Pantheon needs to open boots so that both characters have health potions to work with. each matchup plays differently, typically depending on the support. Against soraka, you try to harass the soraka so that she has to heal herself and then you unload on the carry so that you can do so without having to eat through astra blessing's armor buff. Against sona, you just pick 1 (doesn't matter who) and harass them so that she can't stay efficient with her heal). Against taric you need to bait his stun without using yours and then go for a stun combo while he waits for the CD. Taric is the hardest because he also has an efficient low level heal and a passive armor buff.
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Just for the record I've had great success with janna/leona and I also imagine leona/pantheon would work great. You need a good janna though. Most people seem clueless as how to play her.
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Just saw this thread on reddit, thought it was relevant.
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United States37500 Posts
On July 29 2011 20:43 ManBearPig wrote:Just saw this thread on reddit, thought it was relevant.
haha, definitely very relevant but a lot of troll posts too though.
Been a bit busy this week. I'll shape up the OP this weekend.
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I found that Cassiopeia is a soft-counter to some casters (malz, brand, anivia) due to the fact that they cannot trade spells with her, especially at low levels. The skillshots these guys have do comparable damage to her, but Cass is a lot more spammy, meaning that she gets a lot more tries at hitting her skills. And once the other caster misses a skillshot she can go in and push them around.
She also has an advantage over vlad due to the range difference.
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On July 30 2011 06:41 Khelevaster wrote:
I found that Cassiopeia is a soft-counter to some casters (malz, brand, anivia) due to the fact that they cannot trade spells with her, especially at low levels. The skillshots these guys have do comparable damage to her, but Cass is a lot more spammy, meaning that she gets a lot more tries at hitting her skills. And once the other caster misses a skillshot she can go in and push them around.
She also has an advantage over vlad due to the range difference.
Cassiopeia is a good counter pick to multiple solo top sustain champions. Almost no melee can stand up to her QE spam and if they try to jump her, she just ults. Wonder why people don't do this more.
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On July 30 2011 07:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 06:41 Khelevaster wrote:
I found that Cassiopeia is a soft-counter to some casters (malz, brand, anivia) due to the fact that they cannot trade spells with her, especially at low levels. The skillshots these guys have do comparable damage to her, but Cass is a lot more spammy, meaning that she gets a lot more tries at hitting her skills. And once the other caster misses a skillshot she can go in and push them around.
She also has an advantage over vlad due to the range difference. Cassiopeia is a good counter pick to multiple solo top sustain champions. Almost no melee can stand up to her QE spam and if they try to jump her, she just ults. Wonder why people don't do this more.
She might be a bit too squishy for solo top. Champs like Jax or Xin would wreck her. But I haven't played her in that role much.
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Cass's level 2 is probably the strongest in the game
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She's a good pubstomp champion, anyone who doesn't open boots+3 is at an immediate disadvantage and will likely lose the early stages of the lane.
IDK if I like her as much in the mid-late game....
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On July 30 2011 07:36 Khelevaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 07:06 Shikyo wrote:On July 30 2011 06:41 Khelevaster wrote:
I found that Cassiopeia is a soft-counter to some casters (malz, brand, anivia) due to the fact that they cannot trade spells with her, especially at low levels. The skillshots these guys have do comparable damage to her, but Cass is a lot more spammy, meaning that she gets a lot more tries at hitting her skills. And once the other caster misses a skillshot she can go in and push them around.
She also has an advantage over vlad due to the range difference. Cassiopeia is a good counter pick to multiple solo top sustain champions. Almost no melee can stand up to her QE spam and if they try to jump her, she just ults. Wonder why people don't do this more. She might be a bit too squishy for solo top. Champs like Jax or Xin would wreck her. But I haven't played her in that role much.
If she can get level 2 before taking too much damage then she beats Jax easily. At level 2, if Jax jumps you, you exhaust him immediately. It seems weird to blow a summoner on a full health champion, but he's forced to flash or die, and depending on where in the lane it happens you can still chase him down for a lot more damage and make him go b. Same idea with Xin, but you won't be able to chase him after he flashes because his E slows you, but you also won't eat as much harass before level 2.
edit: her midgame is also super beast, no one can tank her once she hits level 9 because her dps goes through the roof. She scales up a lot quicker than physical ranged carries while dealing just as much damage (although not as much once they get close to full item builds)
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Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Heimerdinger
Counters
Soft: Smite
While this isn't a champion, it does go with your champion's kit. I imagine there will be some debate after I post this but I play more games as heimer than any other champion and this is one of the most annoying things I have to go against. Smite kills his turrets, which severely hurts his ability to farm, and greatly reduces his safety net. If you start this early, heimer will have to waste a large amount of mana keeping his turrets up in lane, meaning he has less mana to harass you. On the other hand, if he forsakes keeping a turret up in lane to maintain his mana pool, then his ability to farm, push, and safety take fairly large hits (and you can still smite minions so the summoner isn't useless, with the mastery you even get bonus gold). Additionally, without his turrets helping him to clear a lane, his harass potential is much weaker, since it becomes much harder to get a rocket to hit you than a minion since in general there are more minions around.
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On July 27 2011 02:44 Haemonculus wrote:
Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
AP Master Yi rapes alot of lanes IMO, though the key to countering him is attacking him after he Q's you, not letting him benefit from the trade.
Though a smart AP Yi will Q minions so it bounces onto you, while it is not as reliable if there is alot of minions nearby, it's safer.
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Don't know if this is the right thread, but when drafting (SoloQ or Arranged 5's)
Shouldn't Jungle + Support be your first two picks? Picks which are very hard to counter and Last pick should be your Top lane?
Reasoning is that Top lane usually gets a lot of time to sit there and farm so you want to make sure you have a good matchup on top so that you maximize your farming.
This assumes you pick second.
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On August 06 2011 05:10 STS17 wrote:
Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
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On July 27 2011 02:44 Haemonculus wrote:
Not sure if this is a real counter, but I've gotten my ass completely handed to me as cass by sololane yi.
You go up to Q them. They alpha, (so your thingy misses), alpha hits you for like a million damage, then he trollfaces away and maybe you land one E in his back as he backs up a tidbit. Repeat twice or 3 times and you've got to b or he can go for the kill.
But yi's such a strange hero that he's probably not ever worth banning.
Why would you Q him if you know he's going to Alpha? But if you know he's going to do that, max E leaving Q at lvl 1, Q him and when he alphas, W yourself, then E E E Q E E dead
EDIT: GOD I really tried to edit this in but nope, I'm just bad
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Cassiopeia I feel is a pretty solid soft counter to Morde in lane as a cause of her sustained damage and the ability to burst him down at long ranges.
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Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
I hope you're fucking kidding lol. Have you ever played this matchup? You're saying that at level 2, morde's 120damage shield is going to buffer against Zil's iirc 180damage burst? Or that at level 5 you can out shield his 400 damage burst? What if this Zil runs Flat AP quints or seals and blues? Are you really saying this? My mind is beyond boggled - I've lurked TL for quite a bit, but every post you make irks me to no end. Please stop assuming your theorycraft and logic are superior without prior experience.
Edit: Also let me add, did you even read the original post by STS? Do you not know the cast range of Zilean's bombs? Do you REALLY expect to be even able to reach the creeps? My god my mind is blown.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2011 09:25 rwrzr wrote:
Don't know if this is the right thread, but when drafting (SoloQ or Arranged 5's)
Shouldn't Jungle + Support be your first two picks? Picks which are very hard to counter and Last pick should be your Top lane?
Reasoning is that Top lane usually gets a lot of time to sit there and farm so you want to make sure you have a good matchup on top so that you maximize your farming.
This assumes you pick second.
What makes you assume support and jungle are harder to counterpick than AD/AP carries?
It depends on the champion. Orianna and Caitlyn are arguably harder to counterpick than, say, Nocturne and Soraka.
On August 06 2011 09:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 05:10 STS17 wrote:
Mordekaiser
Counters
Hard: Zilean
Zilean can deal with mordekaiser quire easily. Because of how Time Bombs work, you can keep Morde from maintaining a full shield by setting the bombs on your own minions, so he takes the explosion if he tries to farm them, then rewind and either hit him or finish off the wave to farm yourself. Past level three, your ability to push lanes are roughly equal, so you can stay on par farm-wise with him and your range keeps you safe from his harass.
While this is slightly less on topic: Your ult completely shuts down Morde's primary function in a team fight: turning a 5v5 into a 6v4. Just ult the same target he does and your resurrect prevents his ult from spawning a ghost, making him significantly less of a threat in teamfights and later in the game.
Disagree strongly, you need burst vs Mordekaiser when he doesn't have shield and vs Zilean he can just go "oh he time bombed, let me fill my shield up" and hence you end up doing nothing to him. I think your logic's pretty backwards, as you should remember that if you indeed do time bomb your own creeps, Morde can just tank that dmg with his shield and then fill the shield up again while your second bomb is ticking.
You don't bomb your creeps. You bomb one of his low HP creeps and do like 350 burst damage at level 3.
Zilean has higher level 3 burst than the vast majority of AP carries simply because he has effectively 2 level 2 nukes when they'll have 1 level 2 and 1 level 1.
On August 06 2011 12:23 Truez wrote:
I hope you're fucking kidding lol. Have you ever played this matchup? You're saying that at level 2, morde's 120damage shield is going to buffer against Zil's iirc 180damage burst? Or that at level 5 you can out shield his 400 damage burst? What if this Zil runs Flat AP quints or seals and blues? Are you really saying this? My mind is beyond boggled - I've lurked TL for quite a bit, but every post you make irks me to no end. Please stop assuming your theorycraft and logic are superior without prior experience.
To be fair, you should never double bomb into Mordekaiser's full shield. Zilean is super mana-limited pre-Cata, and while it'll push damage, if you're not making sure to burst him when he's low on shield, you're going to run out of mana before you force him out of lane
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I'm a baddie, so I'm more or less just bringing this up as a discussion point to get some real people to comment on
Annie
Counters
Soft: Fiddlesticks
Reasoning:
Early on fiddle can harrass annie pretty well, he can Dark wind on a minion and if it bounces on Annie, he walk up and Terrify --> Drain for max damage. Or alternatively, Fiddle can wait for a Dark Wind bounce and while she's silenced start drain, then stop it in the middle and Terrify to keep from taking any harass back. The caveat here is that if annie has tibbers, she can WTF pwn you in the face and likely burst you down, but you can also kill her outright if you surprise her with crowstorm.
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Morde
Countered by
Garen
Silence + spin. The Q on garen allows him to either zone or hurt morde a lot of his shield is not up. And after the Q, garen can stick to mordes with the spin and do some terrible damage unless he has boots. Regardless, he'll take a lot of damage. ( I basically got massacred by a garen as morde haha)
Anyone else think this matchup is one-sided?
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Garen shits and pisses on melee heroes then mixes his excrement in their wounds so that they'll get bacterial infections and die.
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Oh man just played lee sin solo mid against a kassadin. I felt so bad, if that isn't how to hard counter a lane I dont know what is. He will never get a last hit because you can W to any he tries, his silence is laughable after you shield and auto attack, and landing a Q makes his ult useless, along with your E make actually fighting lee sin really stupid. even funnier udyr tried to gank me 5 times, and I had no wards but i just leap all around him.
Poor kassadin
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I think Galio is a hard counter to Morde his Q hits for a ton and it is so easy for him to zone almost anyone with his Q and quick escape on his E along with W for sustainability
We ever gonna get the list updated on the OP?.
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On August 08 2011 17:39 exo6yte wrote:
Garen shits and pisses on melee heroes then mixes his excrement in their wounds so that they'll get bacterial infections and die.
Thank you for making me spew my morning coffee all over my monitor. I appreciate that.
Srsly though I'm already terrified of Garen. i don't even know what to think of him after this patch
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Since there's been a bit of discussion on Garen I thought I'd add at least 1 more matchup to the mix.
Garen
Countered By:
~ Darius
Having played this from both sides, I think Darius can pretty easily counter Garen.
- If Garen tries to farm and ignore Darius - Darius harasses with outer-edge Q repeatedly, until Garen is low enough to pull in for the kill.
- Anytime Garen tries to run at him with Q - Darius hits with Q, this immediately gives Darius speed boost. He runs back behind minions. You should be able to see if Garen will reach you with his Q or not; if he will, turn on W right as he hits you. Passive speed boost + W slow on Garen easily lets you run away from Judgment. After judgment wears off, pull Garen back in for another 1-2 atuos + a 2nd Q hit, R for the kill if level 6+.
As garen against Darius, the only way I know to kill him is to let him push the wave with Q, let your passive heal up any harass damage, then kill minions at tower and get a gank.
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Cho'Gath
Countered By:
~ Wukong
Gap close lets you hit cho whenever he gets near creeps and doge his q if necessary.
His decoy/stealth lets you get into position to either bait out q/w or to move into position to force cho back with the trat of attack.
Tanky enough to easily survive full burst from Cho.
Able to stay on cho if he attempts to disengage.
~ Xin Zhao
Armor ignore negates much of Cho's initial tankiness.
High damage gap close helps to avoid/negate cho's abilities.
Knock up ability while silenced negates any chance of cho escaping, and disrupts any potential combing of abilities.
Able to knock cho around with ultimate to force fights in open area.
Only way I've found as Cho to survive these matchups is to tower hug and long range q/w farm, and don't leave tower range. Against xin, always keep q and hug the tower. Q will force him off you long enough to get closer to the tower to discourage him from continuing his attacks. In both cases do not lead off with q, as you need that to have any hope of escaping when you are engaged on. Best advice is to avoid this matchup completely.
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United States37500 Posts
Surprised to see this thread revived. :O
I'm not too sure about Xin countering Cho. A good Cho can Rupture when Xin dashes in, preventing Xin from getting a full Three Talon in.
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From what happens to me is that the dash and 2/3 of the talon is enough to really push me off the lane. The third attack will stay beyond the duration, so you MUST back off or eat the knockup. Your scream won't stop it as the skill is already active. Rupture alone won't help you trade at all, because the damage has already been done and you can't auto attack trade since you have armor reduction on you. Also I feel like you must count the possibility of rupture missing/dodged, and at this point cho is in real trouble. Let alone the possiblity of Xin moving in right after a rupture cast where he could be immune to silence as his talon strike and charge could both be active/used at the border of ferral scream (600 dash range vs 700 scream with cast time of .5s)
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cho'gath is like the 3rd hardest lane for wukong after lee/riven, and wukong in no way counters cho
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Wu no sustain, and too mana-hungry to shove Cho out of lane before he goes oom. Without mana he's prretty much useless, and he doesn't push as well as Cho with E either.
Also starting with chain vest in no way hinders Cho, while Wukong kinda hates it and Feast gives bonus HP to go along with it.
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EPT
