EPTI call for a laneswitch, honestly, because I feel helpless against her with j4.
[Discussion] Picks and Counterpicks - Page 3
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If you are making an assertion, please use the format from the OP. Champion we're analyzing Counters ~ Reasons It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question. Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc? This thread should encourage all of you in LiquidParty to occasionally host some practice games and try out specific solo matchups. Then come back and report your findings. We can have players of various skill levels try out the matchups to get a better understanding. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
I call for a laneswitch, honestly, because I feel helpless against her with j4. | ||
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BlackHat
United States264 Posts
On July 26 2011 22:54 goldenkrnboi wrote: ^tbh, that just sounds like a combination of vlad vs. anybody and anybody vs. cait (which i guess you could call a hard counter, but i really wouldn't). i'm more interested if there's anybody that counters cait, because i can't really think of one. always a bitch to lane against one for me. This is kinda late, but the reason I say Cait specifically is her auto range, passive, and traps. It is impossible to do anything to her. With Vlad's terrible range you can't hit her with any spells, so the answer would be to play passive and farm. However once she sets up some zone control with traps your movement is severely limited and her range allows her to even attack you under your tower unless you hide all the way behind it, out of farm range. I know Vlad is really weak in lane, but Cait is definitely the worst matchup I've ever experienced, outshining Zil and Kass. I would put out there that in my experience, Zilean fares really well against Caitlyn. Bombs have more range than her auto and he can speed boost away from her harass. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Champion we're analyzing Counters ~ Reasons It'll be easier to read and we can tell the difference between someone making a statement and someone asking a question. Providing reasoning/evidence is important. It's borderline pointless to just say "X counters Y". You're not explaining your stance at all. What skills are you using, how are you laning/positioning yourself, etc. | ||
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Morzas
United States387 Posts
Udyr Hard Countered by: ~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him. I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him. In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr. | ||
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Tadzio
3340 Posts
Lanewick Hard-Counters Maokai- Reasons~ EW rapes me and my Q (occasionally W) feeds his passive. Either I shoulda been more passive or more aggressive at level 1-5. And I have no clue which. Definitely I shoulda stayed away from creeps (doubles the usefulness of his E) and rushed chalice. If you have successful experience with this matchup, speak up. I'm listening. On July 27 2011 09:31 NeoIllusions wrote: A side note, if you are making an assertion, please put it in the format that I've used in the OP. Champion we're analyzing Counters ~ Reasons | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 27 2011 09:42 exo6yte wrote: Tanky DPS Udyr Hard Countered by: ~ Garen: I ran into solo top Udyr while Lantern was still bugged and decided to try playing Garen against him. my reasoning was that if Udyr tries to hit me with his Tiger Stance, I counter with Judgment (a.k.a. E a.k.a. Spin). If he tries to Bear Stance me, I Courage (a.k.a. W a.k.a. DEMACIA!!111) and Judgment on reaction so that he takes about the same amount of damage from me that I'm taking from him, then follow up with Decisive Strike (Q). If he tries to last hit something in Turtle Stance, I auto-attack, Decisive Strike and Judgment him. I was able to keep him off of his lantern for a long time by doing this and managed to kill him twice. Once he got his lantern the laning phase was over, so it wasn't too good for him. In general, Garen is strong against other melee heroes, so I think he's a strong pick against Udyr. What if he just sits and hits creep while in turtle stance? You're not going to kill an Udyr that plays passively and just farms. At most, Garen ties v. Udyr. If you try to take the initiative, he should have enough time to bear stun you. Then move away. Then he just turtles and heals up all damage taken. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
even urgot and leblanc can be dealt with cause you can punish missed E pretty hard, and your silences outranges leblanc, so it turns into a guessing game thing. not easy, but not impossible either. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On July 27 2011 10:02 Ryuu314 wrote: What if he just sits and hits creep while in turtle stance? You're not going to kill an Udyr that plays passively and just farms. At most, Garen ties v. Udyr. If you try to take the initiative, he should have enough time to bear stun you. Then move away. Then he just turtles and heals up all damage taken. It's hard to say. If Garen lands Decisive Strike first, Udyr is going to eat a near full Judgment, without getting to Bear, stun, run away. And he can't Turtle to mitigate the spin. It is highly dependent on the Udyr player's reaction skills but all in all, I would say it's easier for the Garen to stand near the creep wave and surprise Q whenever. Udyr can't afford to go offensive with Bear either. After stun, Garen can QE and it'll most likely do more damage to Udyr than Udyr did in return. Not to mention to be offensive, Udyr needs all 3 Stances. Any two won't be enough. Garen's greatest strength however is that his skills have no cost. He can harass Udyr as soon as his CD is up. Udyr has to heal up with Turtle and all his stances take mana to activate. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 27 2011 10:15 NeoIllusions wrote: It's hard to say. If Garen lands Decisive Strike first, Udyr is going to eat a near full Judgment, without getting to Bear, stun, run away. And he can't Turtle to mitigate the spin. It is highly dependent on the Udyr player's reaction skills but all in all, I would say it's easier for the Garen to stand near the creep wave and surprise Q whenever. Udyr can't afford to go offensive with Bear either. After stun, Garen can QE and it'll most likely do more damage to Udyr than Udyr did in return. Not to mention to be offensive, Udyr needs all 3 Stances. Any two won't be enough. Garen's greatest strength however is that his skills have no cost. He can harass Udyr as soon as his CD is up. Udyr has to heal up with Turtle and all his stances take mana to activate. Well Udyr could just play super passive. Sit in turtle all the time and never stance change unless Garen activates Q. You should have enough time to switch to bear stance before you get hit by the silence. The 1 second stun should be enough for turtle to get off cooldown and give you enough distance from garen such that you can turtle before you take too much damage from the follow up. You'd definitely want to stay away from the bushes tho if Garen is controlling them. | ||
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BlackHat
United States264 Posts
Vladimir Hard Counter Caitlyn Cait counters Vlad with her auto range, passive, and traps. It is impossible to do anything to her with Vlad's short range, you can't hit her with any spells without taking shots. Your q range is 600 which is 50 less than her auto range. E is also 30 short at 620. Your q heals for 15 at level one, while 1 auto from her will do ~60 (non headshot). Q then goes on a 12 second cooldown during which you have no answer to her harass. So normally the answer would be to play passive and farm. However once she sets up some zone control with traps your movement is severely limited and her range allows her to even attack you under your tower unless you hide all the way behind it, out of farm range. With no way to win a trade Vlad has no chance to get to his later levels where this would even out. | ||
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ShoreT
United States489 Posts
Personally, from my experience, I think Karma might be the most dominate solo laner in the game. With ganks in play, she becomes significantly less potent because she has very limited escape potential, but with no ganks, I don't really see her losing many lanes. Counters Caitlin? Karma has a tough time with Caitlin due to Cait's imba early game auto attack harass. Yorick? Karma might have a few problems with Yorick, but after the most recent nerf I think she can generally outlast him. Also, if a Yorick does aggressively try to harass Karma, he leaves himself very open to a gank with little escape potential. | ||
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rob.au
1087 Posts
On July 27 2011 10:09 Kaneh wrote: does malz get hard countered by anything? there's a couple of lanes he can't win, but nothing so serious that he'd get zoned. puddle and voidlings make it so you can't trade autos with him, and his harass is just as good as most others. even urgot and leblanc can be dealt with cause you can punish missed E pretty hard, and your silences outranges leblanc, so it turns into a guessing game thing. not easy, but not impossible either. I don't know about hard counters but Annie and Alistar are kind of difficult to play against as Malz. Annie obviously has the threat of flash ult, and Alistar can wreck you in team fights since there's really no way to prevent him from disrupting your channeled supression ult. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
Though off days are fairly common for people who main kog'maw, and it just seems like you're just trying to land your death explosion well some games. Taric+Kog OP! | ||
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locodoco
Korea (South)1615 Posts
like longer range owns shorter range(DERP WE KNOW THAT ALREADY LOCO) annie mid gets owned by champs with longer range such as brand,orinana,etc a more outdated example is sivir mid getting owned by shit like trist and ashe also champs unable to creep clear properly gets owned by pushers ill use annie as an example again annie vs morde in mid lane,morde can push the lane all the way up to tower from level 1 and ward both sides and can clear opposing side's wraith or gank other lanes w/o annie being able to call mia till late due to creeps being all the way up to her tower another example anivia owns kayle in mid dont exchange hits till 6 and once u hit 6 just clear waves and gank other lanes heals own shield in lane carry + soraka owns carry + janna in lane due to infinitate sustain being able to outlast janna lane eventually just some concepts to think about~ | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On July 27 2011 12:46 locodoco wrote: should be talking about concepts instead of specific heros imo like longer range owns shorter range(DERP WE KNOW THAT ALREADY LOCO) annie mid gets owned by champs with longer range such as brand,orinana,etc a more outdated example is sivir mid getting owned by shit like trist and ashe also champs unable to creep clear properly gets owned by pushers ill use annie as an example again annie vs morde in mid lane,morde can push the lane all the way up to tower from level 1 and ward both sides and can clear opposing side's wraith or gank other lanes w/o annie being able to call mia till late due to creeps being all the way up to her tower another example anivia owns kayle in mid dont exchange hits till 6 and once u hit 6 just clear waves and gank other lanes heals own shield in lane carry + soraka owns carry + janna in lane due to infinitate sustain being able to outlast janna lane eventually just some concepts to think about~ Yeah, I've been seeing a lot of traditional mid lanes get rolled over trololol style by pushers like morde even when they kind of shouldn't lose at all... I also agree with heals > shield in lane, I had teammates lose a janna+corki lane to TARIC+SORAKA since they just couldn't keep up with the sustain. Of course you should never lose to a dual support lane, but the concept is still valid, just as an extension of the trend to run incredibly sustainable laners in solo top... Irelia Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV ~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence. Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. | ||
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Lanzoma
Mexico813 Posts
On July 27 2011 12:15 rob.au wrote: I don't know about hard counters but Annie and Alistar are kind of difficult to play against as Malz. Annie obviously has the threat of flash ult, and Alistar can wreck you in team fights since there's really no way to prevent him from disrupting your channeled supression ult. This thread is about laning, not teamfighting. Come on people. | ||
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RetZ
Australia67 Posts
On July 27 2011 13:26 HyperionDreamer wrote: Irelia Hard Countered by: Jarvan IV ~ In solo top, the JarMan will roll over Irelia cause of his ability to trade damage combos with Irelia. You can open either regrowth or cloth+5 as Jarvan, and zone Irelia out with your EQ+autoattack combo, since that will probably do 1/4 of her HP from levels 2-8 due to the armor reduction on Q plus the % of max HP from martial cadence. Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. I can't agree with this, as long as you start doran's shield or cloth+5pot and max W first you'll either beat or be able to easily farm vs jarvan. Also, turning W on doesn't turn off the healing. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
Irelia Irelia needs to W+Q+E to do any kind of significant damage to Jarman, which is mana inefficient, plus it negates her main source of sustainability (lifesteal off her W), exchanging it for true damage which Jarvan can easily mitigate with cloth armor or regrowth pendant. lol no, not at all. Jarvan vs irelia is just a farm lane. Jarvan has more beefiness but irelia has more sustain. Plus vs jarvan you usually want to max w first = more sustain and more true damage. Armor is worthless vs true damage so basically it makes his passive armor and cloth armor null and void. Irelia is countered by malzahar though. He can simply outharass her healing and can do it from a pretty decent range too. Although malzahar is like that in most lanes. Mundo also actually can beat irelia, but it all depends on skill there. Basically, irelia needs to dodge the cleavers and use her e stun really well to be able to win. It's always very very close. | ||
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