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On March 18 2011 13:20 mrgerry wrote:
they still scale the best damage wise (melee have to tank for the most part)
oh em gee casters burst
when you attack from range you can hit better targets and more shots seems more sustained to me
you mean a team with good amounts of cc makes a carry job easier... mind blown
Sounds like you had some bad games and just took it out on the forums but i responded anyway~
Locodoco is right. You're wrong. I learned this the hard way, but ranged carries need CC and protection to get full potential out. Ranged dps take longer than tanky dps to get better scaling also. Tanky dps have higher base dmg output and survivability than ranged carries. All ranged carries have going for them is range, meaning they constantly need to get better positioning and protection. Tanky dps scale better because all they need to build for is sufficient dmg to dmg, and then build tanky not to die. One example, IE lw costs 6K and can't even break sunfires and 1 hog which cost like 3K+, that fast. IE can't break through sunfires. What I mean by break through is kill them at a reasonably fast rate that would make sense in a fight. What therefore happens is for mediocre cost, you can get protection for tons of physical carry dmg, and use the extra gold to fund small dmg items like sheen and still be able to shut down a carry in fights.
Another theory I have is that I'm pretty sure that in most games you don't even have to build for mr past negatron, you can just build for armor + hp and be an unkillable tanky dps because you can shut down enemy ranged carry which is pretty much imminent in every game, and just live through ap burst. And if ap burst is used on you, you protect other teammates.
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Well, of course melee DPS beats ranged DPS 1v1, but melee DPS has to deal with all the random AoE and the magic burst. Ask a Jax or Olaf etc player what he's most worried about? it's some mage who can burst down half his health before he can get anywhere near the carry.
All carries have going for them is range, but range is a pretty big deal.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 18 2011 13:28 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:20 mrgerry wrote:
they still scale the best damage wise (melee have to tank for the most part)
oh em gee casters burst
when you attack from range you can hit better targets and more shots seems more sustained to me
you mean a team with good amounts of cc makes a carry job easier... mind blown
Sounds like you had some bad games and just took it out on the forums but i responded anyway~ All ranged carries have going for them is range, meaning they constantly need to get better positioning
just have to jump in to tell you this makes no sense at all~
now i'm going afk so i automatically win, i'm right, #1 high elo player fakesteve
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On March 18 2011 13:42 Tooplark wrote:
Well, of course melee DPS beats ranged DPS 1v1, but melee DPS has to deal with all the random AoE and the magic burst. Ask a Jax or Olaf etc player what he's most worried about? it's some mage who can burst down half his health before he can get anywhere near the carry.
All carries have going for them is range, but range is a pretty big deal.
half ur health?
carrys have to worry about getting 1 comboed
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On March 18 2011 13:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 13:28 0123456789 wrote:On March 18 2011 13:20 mrgerry wrote:
they still scale the best damage wise (melee have to tank for the most part)
oh em gee casters burst
when you attack from range you can hit better targets and more shots seems more sustained to me
you mean a team with good amounts of cc makes a carry job easier... mind blown
Sounds like you had some bad games and just took it out on the forums but i responded anyway~ All ranged carries have going for them is range, meaning they constantly need to get better positioning just have to jump in to tell you this makes no sense at all~ now i'm going afk so i automatically win, i'm right, #1 high elo player fakesteve
Steve, think of it as how we need to micro M&M back against lurkerling. All M&M has is range and mobility, so they need to constantly kite and get position for them to auto with. Tanky dps on the other hand be ultras, you just a click a location and that's that.
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On March 18 2011 12:59 locodoco wrote:
carrys no longer carry
thier now just range dps's
they dont scale the best with items(bruisers and tanks do)
they dont bring the most burst(mages do)
they dont bring the most sustained damage(bruisers and tanks do due to carrys not being able to attack 100% of the time in teamfights)
what they do bring
decent damage from afar and escape mechanisms
so they only work if ur team has the cc to get the other team on lockdown
im probably gonna switch to ap and junglers if their isnt a big upset in the foodchain~
But they are 100% still the only reliable way to chip at towers in a siege.
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What was I wrong about? I pointed out painfully obvious rules of LoL that been around awhile. Ranged carries needing protection isn't like some new concept and CC is good. I really don't know what you are trying to tell me other than common sense things that have been established in mobas.
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Melee's can get pwned pretty hard by AoE though, maybe thats just positioing, but it feels like carries like vladimir just rape melee comps.
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On March 18 2011 13:58 mrgerry wrote:
What was I wrong about? I pointed out painfully obvious rules of LoL that been around awhile. Ranged carries needing protection isn't like some new concept and CC is good. I really don't know what you are trying to tell me other than common sense things that have been established in mobas.
im saying their no longer "carrys"
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tbh i never really felt like they were, the last true carry i can remember is pre-nerf-post-buff-pre-renerf twitch and pre-nerf MF
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You corki/urgot/ashe?
You may carry.
You a range dps not on that list?
You a liability
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on a side note malady twitch + veigar is so win
event horizon stun / keepaway lines everyone up so pretty
then -24 MR and boom meteor+q+r
edit: +expunge lul
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On March 18 2011 14:39 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
on a side note malady twitch + veigar is so win
event horizon stun / keepaway lines everyone up so pretty
ur gold elo on usa btw lol
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Depends on your definition, all im gathering from this is you want ranged to do more than they are supposed to. LoL has always been a game where different roles could "carry" with excessive farm don't know what has changed about that to make ranged dps not carry anymore.
Other than that Riot listened to the community and released viable melee heroes which has created a greater variety in picking strategies and benefited the game compared to way back when where tanks and melee heroes were basically malphite/alistar rest suck and melee carries extinct. My only gripe really is they tried too hard to make melees viable in solo and created some unfun lane matchups.
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On March 18 2011 14:40 locodoco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 14:39 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
on a side note malady twitch + veigar is so win
event horizon stun / keepaway lines everyone up so pretty ur gold elo on usa btw lol
im gold on SEA too. 2easy
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On March 18 2011 14:56 mrgerry wrote:
Depends on your definition, all im gathering from this is you want ranged to do more than they are supposed to. LoL has always been a game where different roles could "carry" with excessive farm don't know what has changed about that to make ranged dps not carry anymore.
Other than that Riot listened to the community and released viable melee heroes which has created a greater variety in picking strategies and benefited the game compared to way back when where tanks and melee heroes were basically malphite/alistar rest suck and melee carries extinct. My only gripe really is they tried too hard to make melees viable in solo and created some unfun lane matchups.
im saying range carrys should scale best with items,and should pose the same kind of threat as other classes when farmed
champs like swain,malzahar,irelia,olaf,renek,annie,nocturn,singed,shen,ww threatens to wipe the whole team and survive while ranged carrys can't possess anywhere near that kinda threat even with more farm.
did i mention that their near useless w/o supports?
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So basically you are arguing for a survivability buff on all ranged carries or a damage nerf on everyone else.
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On March 18 2011 15:08 Two_DoWn wrote:
So basically you are arguing for a survivability buff on all ranged carries or a damage nerf on everyone else.
im okay with their survivability and being fragile long as they get good scaling.
things i want
-the final offense mastery to work from bonus damage from items,it currently doesnt
-give every ad carry ad scaling on everysingle one of their skills,trist ult and ashe ult are the 2 big ones.
-better end game itemization,for alot of carrys after their core items(ie + lw or cleaver + sheen + manamune for corki) its really iffy to buy anything else for damage,cleaver is shit if u already have lw,thirster is shit if their bruiser is strong,bloodrazor is shit if they have decent amount of mr. for bruisers and tanks and mages they never really reach a item cap until they get 6 items
thats all i can think of
tl dr:im okay with carrys being glass cannons,but if ur gonna make them glass cannons make sure they hit like cannons
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How long have you been thinking ranged DPS are weak and was it a shift in the meta or what?
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essentially it boils down to the fact that you can negate damage more effectively/goldefficiently than you can deal it, and this hurts ranged carries more than any other class/subclass/archetypewhatever because they are often the ones that are supposed to have the best scaling in exchange for worse defensive stats
also i think this is partly due to the fact that armour itemization is like a whole lot better than MR itemization.
think: physical heavy enemy team, what do i buy? (tabi,HoG,sunfire,randuins,thornmail,frozen heart, blablabla)
think: magic heavy enemy team, what do i buy? (merc treads (more expensive and negates less than ninja tabi), banshees (not so appealing for manaless), quicksilver sash (inefficient MR/gold), spirit visage (...pretty ok i guess but still not so efficient), FoN (prohibitively expensive, hp regen is a bad stat as a whole), abyssalscepter/lichbane/witsend (lol) )
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EPT
