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On February 02 2015 09:24 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
I specifically said that im not a great player, but i don't suck, in fact, by playing premades local tourmnaments with the local players/streamers in my region (latin america) i can safely say that im one of the best players and one of the players who have more knowledge about the game in the region. I know how that sounds, but i'm really competitive and spend a great ammount of time trying to get better, i still have a long road ahead to become one of the greatest, but im positive that im not bad. I'm pretty sure if you ask anybody who has played with me that they will they you I don't suck, they'll tell you i'm good.
I made mistakes all the time, but my mistakes aren't chasing an enemy half the map when the mines are open then dying and forcing your team into a 4-5 or a 10 skull golem, but a lot of my team mates surely do that, then blame us we didn't follow in their suicide mission to secure a worthless kill.
As xDaunt said, there are times when you even warn them "retreat, they are coming to you" they don't listen, they die, and its frustrating. i agree that this game isn't as much about as pure skill, its more about thinking what you are doing and why and when, but most people don't do that. I don't ask to have symbiote gaming as my team mates, i ask for people who at least know what they're doing. I love the game, but sometimes i feel like theres a lot that isn't in my control when playing a match.
If you really want to prove you're not bad, then just play a game with some of the other good players from the thread. Then, they'll come tell us what they think and you'll get an honest critique about your skills.
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I think this is a case of the grass being greener on the other side.
While I imagine my 5 stack win-rate is similar to my 2-4 stack win-rate and I don't solo queue much, I will say that I find it much, much harder to actually win games as a 5 stack as opposed to other group sizes. Other people I talk to share this opinion.
In a 5 stack, you not only need to be pretty good individual players, you need good coordination and teamwork. I've been on teams where it was a bunch of high MMR players with no / poor shot calling and coordination and we've gotten wrecked by teams with much lower MMRs. My experiences with teams that didn't vocally call focus targets well and didn't call decisions to go for objectives well is significantly worse than queuing in a smaller group. It's not as easy as putting together a team of diamond MMR players and then face rolling the ladder.
As a 5 stack, you have a higher chance of matching up against other 5 stacks. This includes teams like TS, C9, EG, BB, and others. You also have a much higher chance of matching against "streamer" teams with a mix of pros / masters / diamond players that actually know what they're doing. I've found that if you queue while any of those people are searching and you have a decently high MMR 5 stack, you have an incredibly high chance of matching against them so we dodge them when we can. The ranked point system doesn't care if you lost against a top tier competitive team. It's still -60 (or -X if you are rank 1, or -60+ if you've played / lost enough games).
You also really need to know what you are drafting as a 5 stack and you need a game plan. It's not just as simple as drafting the highest "tier" heroes. Counter picks are real. Synergy is real. Comps with the combo element or comps that are strong on maps can destroy a team of Stitches, Tychus, Valla, Brightwing, and Tassadar. Nazeebo comps that actually play well will destroy a team without a reliable answer. A well played Gazlowe on Sky Temple is also a real threat. The same goes for Hammer comps on Sky Temple or Dragon Shire. In 2-3 queues, I've found that you often don't need to think about any of that. You just pick either strong heroes early in the draft and play them well or you round out a team in the later picks and your teams generally do okay.
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Brian I think that is straight out what the reasons there truly isn't a "tier" list for HotS. It works in games with 1 map, but there are multiple heroes that fluxuate greatly on their effectiveness between maps.
The other thing that needs to be considered is if X is strong on this map then X's compliments jump up in importance and X's counter picks also jump up in importance. This is obvious with things like Nova and Zeratul vs Tassadar but also I love Kerrigan or Stitches vs Hammer, etc. For me this gives the game a lot of depth and choices.
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Let me put it this way. When hitting a high rank, I would expect certain classes of errors and mistakes to not be made any more. Unfortunately, I have been woefully disappointed on this point -- especially recently.
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Except I do believe in the existence of tier lists. It's just that Blizzard' classification system is broad and just incorrect in some cases. Like Gazlowe is a legit specialist. He's specialized for certain map conditions. Hammer is also a legit specialist. She's specialized for certain map and comp conditions. People call Nazeebo an assassin but I actually agree he is a specialist because he is specialized for certain comp conditions / pick order conditions.
I'd rather they just get rid of the labels because it honestly depends on the state of balance and the meta but I guess it helps new players.
So of course things vary depending on map and comps. Like Brightwing I would generally consider better than Uther but Uther is better when you need burst healing (if your team has a Kerrigan, Illidan, Thrall). Brightwing's sustain healing has better synergy with a comp that can poke and her CC is better / more versatile. But, the two are generally better than Malfurion, Lili, and Rehgar.
The same goes for Warriors. Anub'arak, Sonya, and Diablo are garbage compared to Stitches, Arthas, Tyrael, Muradin and ETC is even rising up the ranks. Just looking at Anub'arak vs. Stitches for example. One needs to dive to initiate and is too squishy to pull it off. The other can initiate from half a screen away. Both single-handedly spoon feed your team an engagement except one doesn't require a hard commitment.
Thrall is generally just better than Illidan. There are some very obvious differences in hero strength.
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On February 02 2015 11:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let me put it this way. When hitting a high rank, I would expect certain classes of errors and mistakes to not be made any more. Unfortunately, I have been woefully disappointed on this point -- especially recently.
Like what?
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On February 02 2015 11:59 Brian333 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2015 11:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let me put it this way. When hitting a high rank, I would expect certain classes of errors and mistakes to not be made any more. Unfortunately, I have been woefully disappointed on this point -- especially recently. Like what?
Players trying to prevent a boss cap when they are badly outnumbered.
Players trying to turn in coins when they have low health and there are unaccounted for enemy players about.
Players failing to properly rotate or otherwise play correctly on Dragonshire.
Players facechecking shrouded areas when the enemy team is obviously there.
Any time players fail to hold back and wait for teammates to res, resulting in their needless death and snowballing enemy victory.
My favorite one recently was a Valla sitting in a bush but on enemy Zagara's creep, thinking that she was hidden. Needless to say, she died.
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On February 02 2015 11:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let me put it this way. When hitting a high rank, I would expect certain classes of errors and mistakes to not be made any more. Unfortunately, I have been woefully disappointed on this point -- especially recently.
Oh come on, how many times have I heard in dota forums that "5k+ mmr players are trash" by other 5k+ players even when they represent the top 1% of players in the game? I highly doubt this game is any different and players will make all sorts of mistakes, including noob ones. I really think you guys need to tone down your expectations of pubs and then you'll enjoy the game more. Dick sucking theory applies here as well. My experience solo queuing, albeit limited is still more or less the same in dota. You get trash, you get cooperatives, stomps and close games. Everyone is always selective in their memories and always focused on the negatives. Think positively in dire situations and you might win an extra game or so. People seem to forget that this game is about teamwork, and team mentality plays a big part in getting your silver level player playing at your level.
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On February 02 2015 12:37 sushiko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2015 11:24 xDaunt wrote:
Let me put it this way. When hitting a high rank, I would expect certain classes of errors and mistakes to not be made any more. Unfortunately, I have been woefully disappointed on this point -- especially recently. Oh come on, how many times have I heard in dota forums that "5k+ mmr players are trash" by other 5k+ players even when they represent the top 1% of players in the game? I highly doubt this game is any different and players will make all sorts of mistakes, including noob ones. I really think you guys need to tone down your expectations of pubs and then you'll enjoy the game more. Dick sucking theory applies here as well. My experience solo queuing, albeit limited is still more or less the same in dota. You get trash, you get cooperatives, stomps and close games. Everyone is always selective in their memories and always focused on the negatives. Think positively in dire situations and you might win an extra game or so. People seem to forget that this game is about teamwork, and team mentality plays a big part in getting your silver level player playing at your level.
Pre-beta, I climbed my way up to masters solo-queuing. The level of play that I saw during that last month before the beta was better than what I am seeing now solo-queuing at rank 4-5. I don't really know how to explain it, other than by saying that before the beta, I generally knew what my team was doing, and I didn't really have to worry about my teammates committing the kinds of errors that I am seeing regularly now. It could be that I am just on an incredibly long unlucky streak. It could also be that I am seeing some kind of biblical return to the mean. All I know is that the quality of games is demonstrably different than what I'm accustomed to.
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Are we talking quick match or hero league here?
I have no idea how hero league works, so if there's any reliable source telling me otherwise I am going to assume its a separate mmr from alpha quickmatch. So that may account for the skill variance in your team if you're talking about hero league. If its quickmatch, it might be players bringing in their new friends. Only way I can explain it I guess.
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I don't even think that list is very bad at all.
Only 2 of those are bad IMO. The standing in a bush on top of a creep tumor is bad but she might not be familiar with Zagara. You don't need a ton of games to reach a high rank. The other is face checking. Everyone, even pros, make that mistake sometimes.
The rest are all preventable by having a leader. In other words, if they're queuing with a group normally and aren't deaf, they might not make any of those mistakes. Even the two mistakes I called bad might not happen.
Nothing you listed really constitutes a clear lack of skill. Something like a Kerrigan not knowing to W before E or keeping track of her mana to make sure she has 110 to combo, a Zeratul not AAing before bombs and cleave, a Tassadar not dismounting before Ding and then remounting to maximize vision, pushing people in the wrong direction with cast aside as Tyrael, etc.
I've found that a lot of players are not bad players. It's just that bad teams are bad teams.
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On February 02 2015 12:59 Brian333 wrote:
I don't even think that list is very bad at all.
Only 2 of those are bad IMO. The standing in a bush on top of a creep tumor is bad but she might not be familiar with Zagara. You don't need a ton of games to reach a high rank. The other is face checking. Everyone, even pros, make that mistake sometimes.
The rest are all preventable by having a leader. In other words, if they're queuing with a group normally and aren't deaf, they might not make any of those mistakes. Even the two mistakes I called bad might not happen.
Nothing you listed really constitutes a clear lack of skill. Something like a Kerrigan not knowing to W before E or keeping track of her mana to make sure she has 110 to combo, a Zeratul not AAing before bombs and cleave, a Tassadar not dismounting before Ding and then remounting to maximize vision, pushing people in the wrong direction with cast aside as Tyrael, etc.
I've found that a lot of players are not bad players. It's just that bad teams are bad teams.
Well said.
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On February 02 2015 12:59 Brian333 wrote:
I don't even think that list is very bad at all.
Only 2 of those are bad IMO. The standing in a bush on top of a creep tumor is bad but she might not be familiar with Zagara. You don't need a ton of games to reach a high rank. The other is face checking. Everyone, even pros, make that mistake sometimes.
The rest are all preventable by having a leader. In other words, if they're queuing with a group normally and aren't deaf, they might not make any of those mistakes. Even the two mistakes I called bad might not happen.
Nothing you listed really constitutes a clear lack of skill. Something like a Kerrigan not knowing to W before E or keeping track of her mana to make sure she has 110 to combo, a Zeratul not AAing before bombs and cleave, a Tassadar not dismounting before Ding and then remounting to maximize vision, pushing people in the wrong direction with cast aside as Tyrael, etc.
I've found that a lot of players are not bad players. It's just that bad teams are bad teams.
I'm confused by this. The issues that you highlighted "demonstrating a lack of skill" are almost entirely innocuous compared to the things that I listed. I listed game-ending errors in judgment. You listed issues of poor mechanical execution. Zeratul failing to land his entire combo is not as devastating to a team as Zeratul getting picked off stupidly at the end of the game.
And sorry, but your solution of "having a leader" is nice in theory, but when it comes to solo-queuing, you're basically herding cats (and you've even admitted that you don't solo queue much). I already mentioned earlier in the thread that what frustrates me the most is that people are committing these stupid errors in the midst of "retreat" and "warning pings" flashing all around them. The sad truth is that, the matchmaker in hero league, even if you're at a high rank, is going to routinely match you with people who play like they're certifiably retarded. My whole point is that I expect players that I'm being matched with to have a certain degree of map and situational awareness, which is clearly lacking.
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On February 02 2015 12:51 sushiko wrote:
Are we talking quick match or hero league here?
I have no idea how hero league works, so if there's any reliable source telling me otherwise I am going to assume its a separate mmr from alpha quickmatch. So that may account for the skill variance in your team if you're talking about hero league. If its quickmatch, it might be players bringing in their new friends. Only way I can explain it I guess.
I'm talking about hero league. I don't really know what the difference is between the matchmaking in hero league and quickmatch, other than 1) I see most of the same people in hero league that I saw pre-beta [plus all of the bad players that I'm now complaining about], and 2) quickmatch is almost unplayably bad for me following whatever changes were made to MMR/the matchmaking algorithm in beta.
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What I am saying is that these people could easily be better than you in an organized group queue of any size if they play with someone who can manage their lack of judgement. So, that they would be a high MMR or a high rank is not inconceivable. They might play with people who tell them what to do or groups that they can follow. If you pointed out clear deficiencies in skill, then I would find it more puzzling than clear deficiencies in judgement.
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On February 02 2015 14:27 Brian333 wrote:
What I am saying is that these people could easily be better than you in an organized group queue of any size if they play with someone who can manage their lack of judgement. So, that they would be a high MMR or a high rank is not inconceivable. They might play with people who tell them what to do or groups that they can follow. If you pointed out clear deficiencies in skill, then I would find it more puzzling than clear deficiencies in judgement.
Maybe. Generally speaking, though, I do not see micro and mechanics as the limiting factors to good or even professional play. Tactics and strategy are far more important. Even presuming that these individuals who are afflicting me were carried to high ranks by leaders who could completely negate their lack of judgment by calling all of the shots, I find it hard to believe that some of their leaders' wisdom would not rub off on them. For the most part, I am talking about very fundamental issues that are awry.
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man you guys are way too concerned about winning and losing
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I do see micro and mechanics as a limiting factor on professional play which is why I disagree this game has a low skill cap. Shot calling and strategy are obviously the more important things but having players that can make huge plays happen and outplay an opponent is also very important. You're going to be limited strategically bringing knives to a gun fight.
For example, recently I played a game where our team had Stitches vs. their Hammer. Should be an advantage, right? Nope. Uther cleansed every hook and we couldn't do jack shit. We were playing against EG's full team and KawaiiRice was on Uther. Our ability to initiate was basically shut down by player skill. We routinely see top Kerrigan and Zeratul players totally wreck teams and respect counter picks / bans due to their strong skill and mechanics on said heroes. Having to use your ban on those heroes instead of Tychus or Stitches dictates what strategical options you have. Another example is choosing to go with a strong roam comp with Arthas, Kerrigan, and Tyrande. The strategy is dependent on the three landing their lock-down in synergistic succession.
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On February 02 2015 15:10 Brian333 wrote:
I do see micro and mechanics as a limiting factor on professional play which is why I disagree this game has a low skill cap. Shot calling and strategy are obviously the more important things but having players that can make huge plays happen and outplay an opponent is also very important. You're going to be limited strategically bringing knives to a gun fight.
For example, recently I played a game where our team had Stitches vs. their Hammer. Should be an advantage, right? Nope. Uther cleansed every hook and we couldn't do jack shit. We were playing against EG's full team and KawaiiRice was on Uther. Our ability to initiate was basically shut down by player skill. We routinely see top Kerrigan and Zeratul players totally wreck teams and respect counter picks / bans due to their strong skill and mechanics on said heroes. Having to use your ban on those heroes instead of Tychus or Stitches dictates what strategical options you have. Another example is choosing to go with a strong roam comp with Arthas, Kerrigan, and Tyrande. The strategy is dependent on the three landing their lock-down in synergistic succession.
I don't disagree with any of this other than that I think that you're conflating mechanics and tactics. Mechanics is the ability to execute a certain action. Tactics is deciding what action to take. As a Zeratul player, I know all about playing around and beating my supposed counterpicks. Proper tactics are what allow me to do it. Yeah, you better be mechanically proficient with Zeratul in the first place, but attaining such proficiency isn't hard. The hard part is deciding when to go in, how to go in (blink or walk), where to go in (which angle), and who to attack. Those are all tactical considerations. The mechanics of blinking in, landing an AA, cleave, and double bombs, and then wormholing out within your second window aren't that hard. Having the creativity to decide to do it at the right time and place and on the right target is where things get interesting and what separates the good Zeratul players from the mediocre ones.
That said, cleansing hooks is pretty damned good and certainly one of the more difficult mechanics to reliably pull off.
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What's EG's current line-up? Anything recent that I can watch?
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EPT
