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On May 15 2014 07:45 the`postman wrote:
I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played a tuned tempo rogue. This deathrattle absolutely kills your tempo, people are talking about it bouncing back SI:7 like that's a good thing, spending 3 mana for 2 directed damage is not a benefit, especially since it kills the curve you had prepared, and your tempo. Maybe if it was a 4/6 I could see that stat point being worth it but trading the consistency of a yeti for one more attack power, and a random tempo killing downside does not seem worth the risk. For every time you might get value (while losing tempo) from an si:7 getting bounced, you're just straight losing tempo by having a harvest golem returned.
What if you have this+another minion on the board and you want to play a defender, there's a 50/50 chance that it trades and you lose not only the tempo but also the defender buff on your other minion. While there might be a spot for this card in the future tempo rogue is already not seeing play, and this card certainly wouldn't change that.
It's got interesting potential, and could lead to some fun plays, but there's no way its an instant add to any decks we've already seen.
I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played miracle rogue. I've never talked about tempo rogue, I said in my very first post miracle rogue. What would miracle rogue possibly have on their board turn 4? Either a loot hoarder or si agent. I suggested replacing the loot hoarders with novice engineers so that in this deck there is no downside to playing this turn 4.
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On May 15 2014 08:02 serum321 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 07:45 the`postman wrote:
I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played a tuned tempo rogue. This deathrattle absolutely kills your tempo, people are talking about it bouncing back SI:7 like that's a good thing, spending 3 mana for 2 directed damage is not a benefit, especially since it kills the curve you had prepared, and your tempo. Maybe if it was a 4/6 I could see that stat point being worth it but trading the consistency of a yeti for one more attack power, and a random tempo killing downside does not seem worth the risk. For every time you might get value (while losing tempo) from an si:7 getting bounced, you're just straight losing tempo by having a harvest golem returned.
What if you have this+another minion on the board and you want to play a defender, there's a 50/50 chance that it trades and you lose not only the tempo but also the defender buff on your other minion. While there might be a spot for this card in the future tempo rogue is already not seeing play, and this card certainly wouldn't change that.
It's got interesting potential, and could lead to some fun plays, but there's no way its an instant add to any decks we've already seen. I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played miracle rogue. I've never talked about tempo rogue, I said in my very first post miracle rogue. What would miracle rogue possibly have on their board turn 4? Either a loot hoarder or si agent. I suggested replacing the loot hoarders with novice engineers so that in this deck there is no downside to playing this turn 4.
For a miracle specifically, the novice engineer is not as bad, but to bounce something like an SI is still as unjustifiable as it would be in tempo. Granted, this card is pretty good in miracle rogue decks. The 5/5 for 4 on an empty board is good alone, and the dream of getting an extra shadow step for a leeroy is there, but that doesnt change the fact that its deathrattle is a detriment in any other circumstance. Having an ambusher on the board while you contemplate playing auctioneer/van cleef; If you intended to shadow step them (which is pretty drastic) then it works out for you if you're able to get the ambusher deathrattle to go your way. Otherwise, its deathrattle is nothing but a downside in every other case.
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On May 15 2014 07:55 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 06:58 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 05:49 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 05:40 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 05:13 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 05:03 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 04:16 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 04:04 serum321 wrote:
For a card to have higher stats than it should for its mana cost there needs to be a downside, I see no downside to this card in many situations. This card in miracle rogue? Replace loot hoarders with novice engineers and now the "downside" is returning an engineer or si agent to your hand, essentially giving you a free card. 5 toughness is hard enough to remove on its own at that stage of the game and now suddenly you also need to deal with that 1/1 before you can even remove the 5/5. So now miracle has this serious threat you have to deal with and it also means you have less removal for auctioneer later.
Succinctly put, it is a better yeti, already one of the most valuable cards, and its "downside" will more often than not be beneficial. In such a case, it's not a free card. When counting card advantage you include both cards on board and hand. All it has done is weakened your board state with the upside of replaying the battle cry (and thus a detriment to tempo by "removing" your next play). The upside is completely in the card's stats and its ability to draw that removal in the first place. Replacing ambusher with yeti and simply playing a different card the turn after ambusher would have died is strictly better in the event that the ambusher is removed and gets to proc its deathrattle, even if it bounces the best card conceiveable (minus leeroy, which is sooo situational). I love it when you say something is essentially something and someone says its not that thing. I didn't say it was a free card, I said it was essentially a free card in that the 1/1 or 3/3 body they leave behind isn't as important as the battlecry itself. The battlecry effect is the free card, a free 0 mana draw a card or a free backstab. In cases such as sending back a damaged golem or bandit it absolutely gives you a free card because it just added a 31st card to your deck and now you have a new 1 mana spell to combo with. If I said essentially (which I didn't) then it was in error, it's not essentially anything. It's strictly neutral in card gain. Its transferring a card from your board to your hand, which is a net gain of 0 cards to your deck. And it is NOT a free backstab, it is a backstab and a 3/3 body at the EXPENSE of a 3/3 body, a card draw, and a 4/4 body -- aka, the azure drake (or really any additional card) you COULD have played but are now replaying the SI agent instead. tl/dr keeping the SI agent on the board and playing another minion is more valuable than losing that additional minion to replay the SI agent (or any battle cry effect card) for another 2 damage. I don't know if this is a language barrier problem or what because this isn't the first time I've had this problem. No you never said essentially I don't know where that is coming from. From my part of the world when someone says something is essentially something they are not saying it is literally something. I said it was essentially giving you a card in that the only reason why people play those cards are their battlecry effect so you ESSENTIALLY get a 3rd engineer or si agent in your deck. No you do not LITERALLY get a 3rd engineer or si agent, I didn't know anyone could possibly take my post that way, it should be pretty clear, unless as I said there is a language barrier. Ok, lets just ignore the essentially part. If backstab was deal 2 damage for 3 mana no one would play it. People play SI agent because it's a backstab ontop of a 3/3 body, which is both card and mana efficient. By bouncing it back to your hand you're negating the first 3/3 body, in effect turning your "original" SI agent play into a 3 mana for 2 damage spell. When you replay it, that lone SI agent is not a 6/6 for 4 damage, it is 3/3 for 4 damage, for a total of 6 mana. So again, tl;dr, you might have dealt 3-6 damage directly if that SI was allowed to live that long before it was bounced back, maybe even killed a minion for free with it, but the moment it is bounced back you've "lost" the opportunity to play an additional minion ontop of the 3/3 body, and the 3/3 body is more valuable than another 2 direct damage outside of very rare circumstances. The ambusher deathrattle, even in the best case scenario (minus leeroy), is both tempo and board loss. I agree lets drop the essentially part. I never said it was another card, we agree it isn't another card. I don't know that it is a "very rare circumstance" for a free 2 direct damage to be more valuable than a 3/3 body, particularly in the miracle rogue deck. Playing against zoo? well that 2 damage can kill almost any of their minions, especially ones behind void walkers and shield bearers and you just saved your 3/3 body. Do you have a deadly poisoned dagger and blade furry in your hand while your opponent has any number of the 5 toughness minions on the board? again you just saved the life of a 3/3 minion. Your opponent have a 4/1 yeti left behind a 4/6 taunt?, is it more valuable to have a 3/3 body on the board or a si:agent in your hand? These are circumstances that happen nearly every game, hardly "very rare circumstances". And as far as the card is concerned you have that double threat with this card. Its a fucking bigger yeti for the same cost AND if you have something like a engineer or si agent on the board well not only does your opponent have to consider well how do I deal with this big threat at this stage of the game? Now they must also consider, do I really want to kill this big threat AND give him another card draw or free arcane shot? As opposed to dealing 2 extra direct damage you could have simply attacked for 3. The body of an SI agent is not as important if it's going to cost 1 extra turn playing other cards which probably could have more impact on the game than just an SI agent. The situations you quote with the SI having to get around a taunt are ideal to abuse a replaying the SI agent for, but given the 4/6 taunt, how do you plan to kill your own ambusher? Also, it's a yeti with 1 more attack. It's a great body but it's not double the threat. Your opponent should be very happy if hes considering removing your ambusher with an engineer or an SI agent. He's effectively gotten a 2 for 1 value on removing minions from the board, and now knows that he has (possibly) subtracted 3 attack damage from his opponents' next play. His alternative would be to leave the SI agent on board and take 3 damage THAT turn rather than 2 damage the following turn with the opportunity to play another creature that the SI can't reactively attack because it has summoning sickness -- ontop of the lost opportunity to play something more threatening than an SI.
Yes he could have attacked for 3 and possibly sacrifice his life, undoubtedly there are many cases where a 3/3 > arcane shot, but there are also many cases where arcane shot would give you a lot more benefit than if you had a 3/3 on the board, like I said basically any time you've said to yourself, "if I only had 1 more damage I could save this card/minion." I would never feel good about giving my opponent a free card draw rather than him having a 1/1 on the board.
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On May 15 2014 08:02 serum321 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 07:45 the`postman wrote:
I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played a tuned tempo rogue. This deathrattle absolutely kills your tempo, people are talking about it bouncing back SI:7 like that's a good thing, spending 3 mana for 2 directed damage is not a benefit, especially since it kills the curve you had prepared, and your tempo. Maybe if it was a 4/6 I could see that stat point being worth it but trading the consistency of a yeti for one more attack power, and a random tempo killing downside does not seem worth the risk. For every time you might get value (while losing tempo) from an si:7 getting bounced, you're just straight losing tempo by having a harvest golem returned.
What if you have this+another minion on the board and you want to play a defender, there's a 50/50 chance that it trades and you lose not only the tempo but also the defender buff on your other minion. While there might be a spot for this card in the future tempo rogue is already not seeing play, and this card certainly wouldn't change that.
It's got interesting potential, and could lead to some fun plays, but there's no way its an instant add to any decks we've already seen. I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played miracle rogue. I've never talked about tempo rogue, I said in my very first post miracle rogue. What would miracle rogue possibly have on their board turn 4? Either a loot hoarder or si agent. I suggested replacing the loot hoarders with novice engineers so that in this deck there is no downside to playing this turn 4.
Why would you want to play this in miracle? What are you replacing? Seems that if miracle rogue wanted something like this you'd run yeti already, which you don't.
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On May 15 2014 08:09 serum321 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 07:55 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 06:58 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 05:49 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 05:40 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 05:13 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 05:03 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 04:16 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 04:04 serum321 wrote:
For a card to have higher stats than it should for its mana cost there needs to be a downside, I see no downside to this card in many situations. This card in miracle rogue? Replace loot hoarders with novice engineers and now the "downside" is returning an engineer or si agent to your hand, essentially giving you a free card. 5 toughness is hard enough to remove on its own at that stage of the game and now suddenly you also need to deal with that 1/1 before you can even remove the 5/5. So now miracle has this serious threat you have to deal with and it also means you have less removal for auctioneer later.
Succinctly put, it is a better yeti, already one of the most valuable cards, and its "downside" will more often than not be beneficial. In such a case, it's not a free card. When counting card advantage you include both cards on board and hand. All it has done is weakened your board state with the upside of replaying the battle cry (and thus a detriment to tempo by "removing" your next play). The upside is completely in the card's stats and its ability to draw that removal in the first place. Replacing ambusher with yeti and simply playing a different card the turn after ambusher would have died is strictly better in the event that the ambusher is removed and gets to proc its deathrattle, even if it bounces the best card conceiveable (minus leeroy, which is sooo situational). I love it when you say something is essentially something and someone says its not that thing. I didn't say it was a free card, I said it was essentially a free card in that the 1/1 or 3/3 body they leave behind isn't as important as the battlecry itself. The battlecry effect is the free card, a free 0 mana draw a card or a free backstab. In cases such as sending back a damaged golem or bandit it absolutely gives you a free card because it just added a 31st card to your deck and now you have a new 1 mana spell to combo with. If I said essentially (which I didn't) then it was in error, it's not essentially anything. It's strictly neutral in card gain. Its transferring a card from your board to your hand, which is a net gain of 0 cards to your deck. And it is NOT a free backstab, it is a backstab and a 3/3 body at the EXPENSE of a 3/3 body, a card draw, and a 4/4 body -- aka, the azure drake (or really any additional card) you COULD have played but are now replaying the SI agent instead. tl/dr keeping the SI agent on the board and playing another minion is more valuable than losing that additional minion to replay the SI agent (or any battle cry effect card) for another 2 damage. I don't know if this is a language barrier problem or what because this isn't the first time I've had this problem. No you never said essentially I don't know where that is coming from. From my part of the world when someone says something is essentially something they are not saying it is literally something. I said it was essentially giving you a card in that the only reason why people play those cards are their battlecry effect so you ESSENTIALLY get a 3rd engineer or si agent in your deck. No you do not LITERALLY get a 3rd engineer or si agent, I didn't know anyone could possibly take my post that way, it should be pretty clear, unless as I said there is a language barrier. Ok, lets just ignore the essentially part. If backstab was deal 2 damage for 3 mana no one would play it. People play SI agent because it's a backstab ontop of a 3/3 body, which is both card and mana efficient. By bouncing it back to your hand you're negating the first 3/3 body, in effect turning your "original" SI agent play into a 3 mana for 2 damage spell. When you replay it, that lone SI agent is not a 6/6 for 4 damage, it is 3/3 for 4 damage, for a total of 6 mana. So again, tl;dr, you might have dealt 3-6 damage directly if that SI was allowed to live that long before it was bounced back, maybe even killed a minion for free with it, but the moment it is bounced back you've "lost" the opportunity to play an additional minion ontop of the 3/3 body, and the 3/3 body is more valuable than another 2 direct damage outside of very rare circumstances. The ambusher deathrattle, even in the best case scenario (minus leeroy), is both tempo and board loss. I agree lets drop the essentially part. I never said it was another card, we agree it isn't another card. I don't know that it is a "very rare circumstance" for a free 2 direct damage to be more valuable than a 3/3 body, particularly in the miracle rogue deck. Playing against zoo? well that 2 damage can kill almost any of their minions, especially ones behind void walkers and shield bearers and you just saved your 3/3 body. Do you have a deadly poisoned dagger and blade furry in your hand while your opponent has any number of the 5 toughness minions on the board? again you just saved the life of a 3/3 minion. Your opponent have a 4/1 yeti left behind a 4/6 taunt?, is it more valuable to have a 3/3 body on the board or a si:agent in your hand? These are circumstances that happen nearly every game, hardly "very rare circumstances". And as far as the card is concerned you have that double threat with this card. Its a fucking bigger yeti for the same cost AND if you have something like a engineer or si agent on the board well not only does your opponent have to consider well how do I deal with this big threat at this stage of the game? Now they must also consider, do I really want to kill this big threat AND give him another card draw or free arcane shot? As opposed to dealing 2 extra direct damage you could have simply attacked for 3. The body of an SI agent is not as important if it's going to cost 1 extra turn playing other cards which probably could have more impact on the game than just an SI agent. The situations you quote with the SI having to get around a taunt are ideal to abuse a replaying the SI agent for, but given the 4/6 taunt, how do you plan to kill your own ambusher? Also, it's a yeti with 1 more attack. It's a great body but it's not double the threat. Your opponent should be very happy if hes considering removing your ambusher with an engineer or an SI agent. He's effectively gotten a 2 for 1 value on removing minions from the board, and now knows that he has (possibly) subtracted 3 attack damage from his opponents' next play. His alternative would be to leave the SI agent on board and take 3 damage THAT turn rather than 2 damage the following turn with the opportunity to play another creature that the SI can't reactively attack because it has summoning sickness -- ontop of the lost opportunity to play something more threatening than an SI. Yes he could have attacked for 3 and possibly sacrifice his life, undoubtedly there are many cases where a 3/3 > arcane shot, but there are also many cases where arcane shot would give you a lot more benefit than if you had a 3/3 on the board, like I said basically any time you've said to yourself, "if I only had 1 more damage I could save this card/minion." I would never feel good about giving my opponent a free card draw rather than him having a 1/1 on the board.
The point isnt having the 3/3 on the board, it's having the 3/3 on the board AS WELL AS another minion that you could have played but lost the opportunity to by spending the mana on REPLAYING the SI7. From the perspective of a miracle rogue -- you're right, this isn't as relevant as theres few to no minions anyways. But everywhere else, especially in places like arena, it's going to be extremely relevant. Though my original intention wasn't to say the card is bad, just that the deathrattle is actually a downside a vast majority of the time -- even for a miracle rogue.
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Why do people say this combos with leeroy? It does 1 more damage for 4 more mana if you manage to double leeroy and kill this off in the same turn...
I mean, daggering up is 1 damage for 2 mana so the chances of this working well isn't very high. In situations of if your oppenent has a taunt, leeroy doesn't get to actually attack when its played first anyways.
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In arena, I would still prefer a Yeti. On turn 4, I play this/Yeti, and on turn 5 I want to play my 5drop. This new card would force me to play smaller minions instead, which may a) not benefit from the bounce or b) make my board weak to AoE effects.
It's worse against Priests, too.
I don't play constructed at all, but I can see this being incorporated in decks that most of the time only have 1 minion on the field, but I'd say it's a niche card.
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This card could easily be used late game when combo'd with something like Leeroy. It basically gives rogues 3 shadow steps with 1 of them returning the monster at a full cost of mana rather than -2 mana. or 4 if 2 of them are ran int he deck.
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On May 15 2014 08:26 Came Norrection wrote:
Why do people say this combos with leeroy? It does 1 more damage for 4 more mana if you manage to double leeroy and kill this off in the same turn...
I mean, daggering up is 1 damage for 2 mana so the chances of this working well isn't very high. In situations of if your oppenent has a taunt, leeroy doesn't get to actually attack when its played first anyways.
the big boon from comboing this with leroy is that the leroy doesn't have to remain on the board vulnerable and hopefully your spider traded with a minion that you would of wanted to remove in the first place. pop leroy hit face trade with minion that will kill your spider and suddenly leroy isn't strictly speaking just a finisher any more but something that can be used at the middle game as well. it's situational of course but it has it's uses.
of course i don;t think leroy is the best thing to try and get the death rattle of on.i think it would be better to use on agent of stormwind hit a minion with only 2 attack with your three/three kill your spider against a really big minion and than recast your three/three with the combo boost to hopefully finish of the big minion.
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On May 15 2014 09:39 Advantageous wrote:
This card could easily be used late game when combo'd with something like Leeroy. It basically gives rogues 3 shadow steps with 1 of them returning the monster at a full cost of mana rather than -2 mana. or 4 if 2 of them are ran int he deck.
if you wanted to do that you could use panda already, it's reliable and costs less mana.
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On May 15 2014 09:39 Advantageous wrote:
This card could easily be used late game when combo'd with something like Leeroy. It basically gives rogues 3 shadow steps with 1 of them returning the monster at a full cost of mana rather than -2 mana. or 4 if 2 of them are ran int he deck.
No, not that easily. It has to survive until the turn you play leeroy, and even then, your opponent has to have something with 5 attack or an effect which destroys minions, and it -cannot- have taunt if it doesnt have 5 or less health, otherwise leeroy would get no benefit. All of this to delay your turn for an extra 6 damage which miracle rogue is quite capable of putting out in that time span. The idea of comboing this with Leeroy is a pipe dream.
You'd be much better off playing the ambusher on turn 4 and getting an attack in for 5, so that the standard leeroy combo has lethal later on. Or not running it at all just concealing a mana addict and dealing 5 or more damage when you let your combo loose.
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On May 15 2014 03:08 Maand wrote:
Yeti in tempo rogue just got replaced?
Yep! This card looks great, and I like what Blizzard is sort of saying with it. I doubt this will see much play in a Miracle Rogue, but for things like tempo rogue, this card may see some play, and keep the two iterations of rogue on par with each other. It's awesome!
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The death rattle is the intended downside, but a lot of the times it's actually great to bounce minions that are low health or have a battlecry effect. Basically a better chillwind yeti version of youthful brewmaster.
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I think blizzard can't add another low cost spell to support miracle rogue, so this is the alternative.
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On May 15 2014 09:59 LunarDestiny wrote:
I think blizzard can't add another low cost spell to support miracle rogue, so this is the alternative.
If Blizzard really thinks "we cannot add more low cost spells", then that sounds like a good reason to change Gagdetzan Auctioneer.
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On May 15 2014 10:25 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 09:59 LunarDestiny wrote:
I think blizzard can't add another low cost spell to support miracle rogue, so this is the alternative. If Blizzard really thinks "we cannot add more low cost spells", then that sounds like a good reason to change Gagdetzan Auctioneer.
I doubt Gadgetzan will go unchanged for a year. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's OP, but I wouldn't recommend disenchanting extras.
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On May 15 2014 10:58 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 10:25 S1eth wrote:On May 15 2014 09:59 LunarDestiny wrote:
I think blizzard can't add another low cost spell to support miracle rogue, so this is the alternative. If Blizzard really thinks "we cannot add more low cost spells", then that sounds like a good reason to change Gagdetzan Auctioneer. I doubt Gadgetzan will go unchanged for a year. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's OP, but I wouldn't recommend disenchanting extras.
the card needs a change, same with leeroy. no questions asked. what that change should be is something I'm not sure of.
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Maybe I am completely off, but I feel like this card is too situational to be good. It synergizes rather poorly with rogue cards. This card is, by itself, solid. It is most likely going to be a 2 for 1 and is a yeti killer. It's deathrattle is so incredibly lackluster that I just cannot justify using it, though. My logic:
As tempo rogue:
It kills your tempo. The card will be cleared as quickly as possible, and your minion will return to your hand causing you to lose damage and a body on the board. The mana to replay it might be too much to justify this, and chances are this deathrattle will not be activated on your turn. Even if it was, your turn, you might have a few minions on the board and a bad one will be bounced back. If you have an onslaught of minions, chances are you are winning and this card wouldnt be great anyway. Also, I do not feel like SI is a justifiable bounce back to your hand since a) it will cost you 3 mana to put that body back on the board which will really hurt your early game, and b) it needs to be combo'd to get the 2 extra damage. Generally, this is done around turn or 4 or 5 when you'd want to play this card, maybe turn 3 or 2 depending on if you have coin/backstab. It being on the board before Anu'bar Ambusher means that SI will probably be dead before this were an opportunity anyway.
As miracle:
Maybe a little better but still pretty bad. Novice Engineer becomes better than Loot Horder. Earthen Ring might benefit from this. This synergizes poorly with Auctioneer or Azure Drake (their 5 mana costs to replay is too detrimental) and even worse with Vancleef.
Also, this really does not create an extra Leeroy shadowstep. What makes shadowstep good? It costs 0 mana, and reduces the cost of that cards replay by 2 mana. So for Anu'bar Ambusher to SS Leeroy, it a) cannot happen any earlier than turn 8 since Leeroy will cost 4 mana to replay b) would have to be be already be on the board alone to even gaurantee a Leeroy shadow step (12 mana to play Anu'bar Ambusher, Leeroy x2) c) you would have to run it into a minion to kill Anu'bar Ambusher to activate the deathrattle. If the board were clear, you would have to kill off your own Anu'bar Ambusher which will most likely be better used to burn down the opponent.
Until the patch comes out, I am a skeptic. I would argue that this is the weakest card released so far, and unless Blizzard has some other cool cards for rogues that help make this better than I do not see it being played at the pro level.
I really would like to hear someone's in depth analysis on why the card is good though.
tl;dr - Does not synergize with rogue... not great for miracle, even worse for tempo and is in no way a Shadowstep for Leeroy
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Doesnt sound like a card that can be consistently viable
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On May 15 2014 11:24 djtiii wrote:
tl;dr - Does not synergize with rogue... not great for miracle, even worse for tempo and is in no way a Shadowstep for Leeroy
Agreed. I don't see it working in either the miracle or tempo deck archetypes without some additional deathrattle-shenanigans card reveals. Maybe in some sort of weird rogue control deck.
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EPT
