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I'm almost ready to say that outside of miracle rogue, this card is worse than yeti. The risk of wiping your own board for an extra 1 attack leaves me inclined to pick a 4/5 that will consistently die without the gamble of losing my board.
On May 15 2014 18:06 Doc Daneeka wrote:
i'm thinking of it being sort of like Mad Bomber - good stats for the mana, with an uncontrollable battlecry that could gain you more of an advantage or alternatively set you behind.
in arena, saying "i'd rather just have a Yeti" is kind of meaningless because it only applies if two of the three cards you're choosing from are this and Yeti. more likely you're choosing between this and some other card, and there may or may not already be a Yeti in your deck. in a way this doubles the number of Yetis you have the opportunity to pick if you're running arena as rogue.
i also think it's kind of presumptuous to assume that the optimized decks will stay the same after 30 brand new cards are introduced, considering meta changes not insignificantly on a weekly basis using the same cards we've had for nine months.
It's only going to be 30 cards. How many of them are going to be class cards? Some of the neutrals we already know aren't game breaking yet, and the synergy they could have with other new cards we haven't found out. Most of our current decks probably are only going to see 2-3 cards swapped out (assuming the next cards to be released are amazing). Although the meta might change before naxx arrives, it's going to change based on the cards we have now. So unless someone figures out a rogue deck that relies on virtually no minions at all (even less than miracle), this card, as much as it appears on paper to be synergetic, is anti-synergetic to anything rogue that we currently know of.
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On May 15 2014 20:02 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 19:52 S1eth wrote:On May 15 2014 19:44 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On May 15 2014 19:32 S1eth wrote:On May 15 2014 18:37 JBright wrote:
I wonder how it will interact with Sylvanas and the order of the two deathrattles. The same way it does with 2 Sylvanas: completely bugged and random Isnt it the order of the cards being played ? You have Anub and 1 minion, he has sylvanas, sylvanas attacks into anub 1) Sylvanas was played before anub this means he takes your minion and you get nothing returned to your hand 2) aub was played before sylvanas your minion gets returned to your hand and sylvanas gets nothing There was a post on reddit about 2 people who made hundreds of tests with sylvanas vs sylvanas (with playing order: A before B, B before A, attacking or being attacked: A attacks B, B attacks A), sylvanas vs harvest golem and so on. And the results were not consistent at all. (except that Sylvanas can never take the Damaged Golem / Baine Bloodhoof ) does this also count for sylvanas vs other deathrattle or is it only random in the sylvanas mirror
Read here: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/4637-how-deathrattle-activation-order-works
On May 15 2014 20:08 rd wrote:
It's only going to be 30 cards. How many of them are going to be class cards?
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On May 15 2014 20:10 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 20:02 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On May 15 2014 19:52 S1eth wrote:On May 15 2014 19:44 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On May 15 2014 19:32 S1eth wrote:On May 15 2014 18:37 JBright wrote:
I wonder how it will interact with Sylvanas and the order of the two deathrattles. The same way it does with 2 Sylvanas: completely bugged and random Isnt it the order of the cards being played ? You have Anub and 1 minion, he has sylvanas, sylvanas attacks into anub 1) Sylvanas was played before anub this means he takes your minion and you get nothing returned to your hand 2) aub was played before sylvanas your minion gets returned to your hand and sylvanas gets nothing There was a post on reddit about 2 people who made hundreds of tests with sylvanas vs sylvanas (with playing order: A before B, B before A, attacking or being attacked: A attacks B, B attacks A), sylvanas vs harvest golem and so on. And the results were not consistent at all. (except that Sylvanas can never take the Damaged Golem / Baine Bloodhoof ) does this also count for sylvanas vs other deathrattle or is it only random in the sylvanas mirror Read here: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/4637-how-deathrattle-activation-order-works
Thanks, seems that what I have been seeing in play regarding deathrattle was just lucky coincidence
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I don't like how a spider is a Rogue card.
However I like the deathrattle.
It may be too strong though with those stats. 5/5 for 4mana with built-in random panda is a lot!
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I find it interesting that it's called an ambusher. Do you think it's called that because it allows you to replay the card that got returned to finish the opponent? I'm thinking Leeroy or SI7 Agent.
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On May 15 2014 21:43 LastAergerer wrote:
I find it interesting that it's called an ambusher. Do you think it's called that because it allows you to replay the card that got returned to finish the opponent? I'm thinking Leeroy or SI7 Agent.
I think its mostly design wise so that it fits in the Rogue theme
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I think Argus is going to be the most realistically used combo, unless of course there are some other Naxx cards that pair well with it.
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But they tailor the card abilities to match the fluff; rather interesting conceptually. I was wondering who it is ambushing and how.
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On May 15 2014 08:10 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 08:02 serum321 wrote:On May 15 2014 07:45 the`postman wrote:
I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played a tuned tempo rogue. This deathrattle absolutely kills your tempo, people are talking about it bouncing back SI:7 like that's a good thing, spending 3 mana for 2 directed damage is not a benefit, especially since it kills the curve you had prepared, and your tempo. Maybe if it was a 4/6 I could see that stat point being worth it but trading the consistency of a yeti for one more attack power, and a random tempo killing downside does not seem worth the risk. For every time you might get value (while losing tempo) from an si:7 getting bounced, you're just straight losing tempo by having a harvest golem returned.
What if you have this+another minion on the board and you want to play a defender, there's a 50/50 chance that it trades and you lose not only the tempo but also the defender buff on your other minion. While there might be a spot for this card in the future tempo rogue is already not seeing play, and this card certainly wouldn't change that.
It's got interesting potential, and could lead to some fun plays, but there's no way its an instant add to any decks we've already seen. I feel like the people commenting on this have never actually played miracle rogue. I've never talked about tempo rogue, I said in my very first post miracle rogue. What would miracle rogue possibly have on their board turn 4? Either a loot hoarder or si agent. I suggested replacing the loot hoarders with novice engineers so that in this deck there is no downside to playing this turn 4. Why would you want to play this in miracle? What are you replacing? Seems that if miracle rogue wanted something like this you'd run yeti already, which you don't.
You already have a spot where people sub in earthen or bgh or some other meta choice card, this card would be more versatile in all matchups rather than a niche in one matchup.
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I think this card is gonna be great in a miracle deck.It comes one turn earlier than Azure Drake / Gadgetzan Auctioneer and it will bait removal.5 attack is a lot and with 5 health there are very few minions that can kill it that turn.
If you played SI:7 Agent the previous turn and the opponent for whatever reason did not kill it you will be in a very good spot.You won't lose tempo.I mean what could you possibly play on turns 1-3 that won't die and will be bad if it goes back in your hand?
Since this card only costs 4 mana you can do some pretty cool stuff later in the game and of course we haven't seen all the Naxraamas cards yet,i'm sure there will be cards that will have some synergy with this spider.
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On May 15 2014 22:24 DifuntO wrote:
I think this card is gonna be great in a miracle deck.It comes one turn earlier than Azure Drake / Gadgetzan Auctioneer and it will bait removal.5 attack is a lot and with 5 health there are very few minions that can kill it that turn.
If you played SI:7 Agent the previous turn and the opponent for whatever reason did not kill it you will be in a very good spot.You won't lose tempo.I mean what could you possibly play on turns 1-3 that won't die and will be bad if it goes back in your hand?
Since this card only costs 4 mana you can do some pretty cool stuff later in the game and of course we haven't seen all the Naxraamas cards yet,i'm sure there will be cards that will have some synergy with this spider.
You're in a good spot if the SI7 lives, a bad spot if you play the ambusher and the ambusher sends the SI back to your hand. Had the ambusher been a yeti, you'd still have an SI7 which is more valuable on the board than in your hand. The definition of tempo starts with putting threats from your hand to the board, not the other way around.
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On May 16 2014 01:25 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2014 22:24 DifuntO wrote:
I think this card is gonna be great in a miracle deck.It comes one turn earlier than Azure Drake / Gadgetzan Auctioneer and it will bait removal.5 attack is a lot and with 5 health there are very few minions that can kill it that turn.
If you played SI:7 Agent the previous turn and the opponent for whatever reason did not kill it you will be in a very good spot.You won't lose tempo.I mean what could you possibly play on turns 1-3 that won't die and will be bad if it goes back in your hand?
Since this card only costs 4 mana you can do some pretty cool stuff later in the game and of course we haven't seen all the Naxraamas cards yet,i'm sure there will be cards that will have some synergy with this spider. You're in a good spot if the SI7 lives, a bad spot if you play the ambusher and the ambusher sends the SI back to your hand. Had the ambusher been a yeti, you'd still have an SI7 which is more valuable on the board than in your hand. The definition of tempo starts with putting threats from your hand to the board, not the other way around.
I played the SI:7 Agent and probably did 2 dmg.He stays alive.I can attack something the opponent played or do 3dmg to him and play the spider.
The opponent probably spends a lot or resources/mana to kill the spider so i get the SI:7 Agent back,i am the one who puts stuff on the board and i can use SI:7 Agent's battlecry again whenever i want.
Yeah,i could have a 3/3 on the board instead but it's not really a big difference in this case.Of course there will be some situations where you would prefer to have a yeti but the spider is a 5/5 which makes it amazing with so many popular 4/4 and 4/5 minions.
We'll have to wait and see it in action.To me it looks like a very good card.
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well lets say you trade a 4/4 with your 5/5 Ambusher(5/1 then) in your opponents turn he can trade the spider easily and may get a free bounce which is obv horrible
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On May 16 2014 02:10 DifuntO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2014 01:25 rd wrote:On May 15 2014 22:24 DifuntO wrote:
I think this card is gonna be great in a miracle deck.It comes one turn earlier than Azure Drake / Gadgetzan Auctioneer and it will bait removal.5 attack is a lot and with 5 health there are very few minions that can kill it that turn.
If you played SI:7 Agent the previous turn and the opponent for whatever reason did not kill it you will be in a very good spot.You won't lose tempo.I mean what could you possibly play on turns 1-3 that won't die and will be bad if it goes back in your hand?
Since this card only costs 4 mana you can do some pretty cool stuff later in the game and of course we haven't seen all the Naxraamas cards yet,i'm sure there will be cards that will have some synergy with this spider. You're in a good spot if the SI7 lives, a bad spot if you play the ambusher and the ambusher sends the SI back to your hand. Had the ambusher been a yeti, you'd still have an SI7 which is more valuable on the board than in your hand. The definition of tempo starts with putting threats from your hand to the board, not the other way around. I played the SI:7 Agent and probably did 2 dmg.He stays alive.I can attack something the opponent played or do 3dmg to him and play the spider. The opponent probably spends a lot or resources/mana to kill the spider so i get the SI:7 Agent back,i am the one who puts stuff on the board and i can use SI:7 Agent's battlecry again whenever i want. Yeah,i could have a 3/3 on the board instead but it's not really a big difference in this case.Of course there will be some situations where you would prefer to have a yeti but the spider is a 5/5 which makes it amazing with so many popular 4/4 and 4/5 minions. We'll have to wait and see it in action.To me it looks like a very good card.
Your opponent would have had to use the same resources to kill a yeti, and with a yeti the turn would conclude with you having the additional 3/3 on board, which is better than 2 more direct damage. Not to mention, if your goal was to be on the play (playing minions first), you have a much stronger board presence with the SI7 agent on board to play an additional minion, rather than just a lone SI7 agent.
I think people confuse why battle cry cards like SI7 agent and dark iron are so good. They're ultra mana efficient, giving you effects that impact the board immediately ontop of the vanilla body. The entire point is to play a minion on the board and have it do more work than a vanilla 3/3 or 4/4. Replaying the same card makes it extremely mana inefficient, and reduces your board.
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I don't get this card. So far we've seen cards in naxx give some beneficial effect to each class. Paladins love playing around with minions so Avenge makes sense. Druids lack hard removal and don't have too much trouble dealing with tokens or abusing tokens so Poison Seeds make sense. Warrior can play around with massively dealing damage to his own minions (Whirlwind yo!) so Death's Bite makes sense.
What does this card give to a rogue? Pretty much the reason why Shadowstep is viable is because it's target not random, it reduces the cost and probably most importantly - its a 0 mana spell. This card's effect makes no sense. The only good Battlecry minion a rogue has is SI:7 Agent. The Ambusher's effect is random so it doesn't allow for reliable combo. Trying to combo it with Scrub is also unreliable as you might get the Defias Bandit returned and that does nothing for you. I don't see this card being viable in Tempo Rogue as it will just slow you down that works against the deck.
In the end the only reason for this card to be powerful is that it's a 4 mana 5/5. I don't see its effect being strong in rogue decks in any way - this type of effect is a lot more useful for paladin or priest who are probably the only classes that ever consider running Youthful Brewmaster. So i see this card ending up only in Miracle Rogue as a 4 mana 5/5 with no drawback as Miracle Rogue doesn't play much with minions. That's stupid. You can create the same type of card for almost any class. It just doesn't really add anything new to the rogue IMO. Seems really dumb to me...
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On May 15 2014 22:24 DifuntO wrote:
I think this card is gonna be great in a miracle deck.It comes one turn earlier than Azure Drake / Gadgetzan Auctioneer and it will bait removal.5 attack is a lot and with 5 health there are very few minions that can kill it that turn.
If you played SI:7 Agent the previous turn and the opponent for whatever reason did not kill it you will be in a very good spot.You won't lose tempo.I mean what could you possibly play on turns 1-3 that won't die and will be bad if it goes back in your hand?
Since this card only costs 4 mana you can do some pretty cool stuff later in the game and of course we haven't seen all the Naxraamas cards yet,i'm sure there will be cards that will have some synergy with this spider.
I doubt this will see much play in miracle rogue for the same reason Yeti doesn't, it doesn't really support what the deck is trying to do. Pretty much all the minions in normal miracle decks bring either card draw, spell power, or both. This card has none of those, and is just a big body with a potentially significant downside.
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Id just like to remind everybody this is a single card out of the new rogue cards.
we might not even have miracle rogue anymore in the meta after the new pack.
trying to shoe-horn this card into the current meta isnt going to be particularly effective imo.
i rather speculate on what kind of cards might be coming into synnergize with this.
although the new cards seem to have an emphasis on deathrattle.
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I think they're crypt lords, not spiders. Don't they even have 6 legs?
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On May 16 2014 06:05 gostunv wrote:
Id just like to remind everybody this is a single card out of the new rogue cards.
There's only one new card per class.
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On May 16 2014 06:05 gostunv wrote:
Id just like to remind everybody this is a single card out of the new rogue cards.
we might not even have miracle rogue anymore in the meta after the new pack.
trying to shoe-horn this card into the current meta isnt going to be particularly effective imo.
i rather speculate on what kind of cards might be coming into synnergize with this.
although the new cards seem to have an emphasis on deathrattle.
Ironically, if there were multiple class cards in naxx, there'd be almost half as many new cards for rogue to work with compared to the current reality where theres only 1 class card and 21 other neutrals for rogue to play with. Nonetheless, it's only 30 cards. The metagame is going to be heavily influenced most by the current 300+ cards that exist now.
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EPT
