Whale Wars - Page 14

On August 15 2010 02:10 wadadde wrote:

Your rebuttal (of a statement I made in response to someone other than you) is deeply flawed. First of all, you disregard the fact that a ban on whaling is not exclusively a "western" issue. Maybe it's primarily Western nations that have taken the lead on this issue, but Japan is among the few nations who insist on killing whales as a luxury or cultural affairt. Their position is quite simple : we kill whales because we think whales are good eating. Now, I'm not suggesting that they (their government) aren't willing to compromise to a degree, when under pressure, but the really big issue I have with the Japanese people is that these issues of sustainability and animal rights are not compatible with their current mainstream cultural framework. This is troubling, especially where sustainability is concerned, precisely because they 1.don't have exclusive ownership of the world or the creatures that live in/on it. and 2. because the extinction, or the overfishing of a species of whale has serious consequences for entire ecosystems. It's really important to stress that they 1. do NOT depend on whale meat for food.. it's not a major market and 2. as I previously mentioned, they do not own the whales they kill. If everything on this earth belongs to someone, then the whales in international waters (for instance around Antrctica) belong to me as much as they belong to a random Japanese person. Do you understand that their actions can reasonably be equated to theft? I hope that you can at least see some truth in this.
I am not necessairily interested in battling freely adopted modes of living. It only becomes an issue when the behaviour infringes on my rights/interests and arguably those of the vast majority of the world.
In a way I couldn't care less about what they believe to be just. On the other hand, their attitude betrays something which simply isn't healthy for a society interested in enduring. Maybe the issue of whaling is just an isolated case, but this attitude of complete disinterest with regard to the issue at hand isn't sane. A society that is so focussed inwards that it doesn't see that its nature/culture is precisely the thing which will (if not curtailed) destroy that very way of life, is borderline insane. Japan is a fishing nation. It really does depend on the ocean for sustenance. Why are issues like the ones we're talking about not on the front burner there?

I share your opinion about our meat industries. We share an insanity with them and my position is not against the Japanese way of life per se. My position is one that rages against a deep seeded insanity. People keep pretending that global warming is controversial, however, the far less controversial issue of ocean acidification is hardly even discussed. The high level of CO2 is driving the acidification of the oceans and the only way we can mitigate the effects (until the situation becomes reversed) is by reducing the pressures on affected ecosystems. I can understand the economic drivers behind the unwillingness to take into account the science, but what we don't need is some silly dogmatic position to make battling the very real problems even more problematic. This isn't about double standards. Dogmatism should never be allowed to get in the way of survival. Many civilisations no longer exist because they refused to adapt to changing conditions.

I'm not interested in defending everything about these activists. I have my own reasons for being somewhat sympathetic to their struggle. I am not just a Westerner. I am a human and I would like the way humans organise my world to not unnecessairily damage me, my family, my community, my nation, or my world.. It's not impossible if we keep our eyes open.

(Pigs lack emotional characteristics we share with the whales, by the way. It's not too important, but we can't take the position that simply because drawing lines seems arbitrary, that we then have to proceed to draw the line where the least compassionate/idealistic people want the line to be drawn. I was merely expressing an observation. I was not attempting to construct a logic that inevitably leads to one particular conclusion.)
Peace

On August 16 2010 09:57 RedTerror wrote:
Commercial whaling is banned. What Japan is doing currently is a giant slap in the face.

On August 16 2010 09:09 andrewlt wrote:



The problem is that many whale species are not really endangered. The entire premise of your argument is based on a fallacy. Your argument is based on your mistaken assumption that the Japanese do not care about the environment at all and would just destroy everything.

Whales can be harvested sustainably. Stop thinking that the killing of even one whale will destroy entire ecosystems. There are enough whale species that are not endangered in the ocean that whaling that can be allowed with strict quotas. The problem the Japanese have is that many countries refuse to even consider a quota and would just like to completely ban whaling at all because of their cuteness. It's really not just the Japanese. I believe Finland also pulled out of the organization. Canada is having similar problems with regards to seals, another "cute" sea creature.

If you look at it holistically, the animals you eat are also important to their ecosystem. It's not just the cute animals that are important to their ecosystem, but the ugly ones as well. However, many Westerners seem to have no problem with sustainably eating the ugly animals. Hey, if it's sustainable, does it matter how cute the animal is?

Your last paragraph displays the "cuteness" bias perfectly. You believe there is something special about whales because they are cuter than pigs. At least you were willing to admit you're wrong, but that's precisely my problem with these types of discussion in the Western world. There is too much pseudo-scientific garbage floating around about the animals Westerners don't like to eat. The stuff about dogs, cats, horses and the like are just as scientific as the
Hindu belief that cows are sacred, which is to say, not at all. The entire argument about whaling is just completely tainted by Western cultural bias.

You have the wrong impression about Japanese attitude towards the environment. They are one of the cleanest, greenest countries in the world with the lowest emissions of greenhouse gases. If you've ever heard the warnings about undercooked pork and poultry, understand that that's just because of the disgusting way these animals are raised in the U.S. and many other Western countries. It's perfectly fine to eat raw chicken in Japan. There's no salmonella at all.

TOKYO (AP) -- Japan has temporarily suspended its annual Antarctic whaling after repeated harassment by a conservationist group, a government official said Wednesday.

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society ships have been chasing the Japanese whaling fleet for weeks in the icy seas off Antarctica, trying to block Japan's annual whale hunt, planned for up to 945 whales.

Japan has halted the hunt since Feb. 10 after persistent "violent" disruptions by the anti-whaling protesters, said fisheries agency official Tatsuya Nakaoku.

So far, the attacks have not caused any injuries or major damage to the vessels, he said, but the protesters are throwing rancid butter in bottles and once the protesters got a rope entangled in the propeller on a harpoon vessel, causing it to slow down.

On February 17 2011 05:21 bonifaceviii wrote:
Sea Shepherd are an excellent PR machine. Even when they use questionably violent and destructive tactics they still seem like the freedom fighters.