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Whale Wars - Page 13

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VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
August 13 2010 14:28 GMT
#241
On August 13 2010 23:19 city42 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 23:13 VIB wrote:
On August 13 2010 23:01 city42 wrote:
On August 13 2010 22:53 VIB wrote:
On August 13 2010 22:23 ProFail wrote:
Love the programme, but I dont think I can get it in England, despite having sky i've never seen it? Watched it all online (illegally) but now the website has been taken down and im left without whale wars, Inspirational programme, love what they're doing.
tvunderground org ru

I watched 3 episodes and didn't like it. It's funny how they're so unorganized that the biggest threat against them is their own incompetence.

But some people here got it all wrong. The most harmful thing they do is throwing stink bombs. They're not endangering anyone's life. Labeling them as "terrorists" is completely ignorant. They're not trying to cause terror neither are they inflicting any direct damage. They're main and most powerful weapons are the cameras and they're main goal is to move the public opinion.

Did you miss the part where they rammed into one of the whaling ships? That's a very interesting definition of "direct damage" you have.
Errr.... their boat who "rammed" them was stopped :S Just... floating still.. and they rammed the other ship? There's video evidence everywhere. Among the world's media there's reports blaming one side, reports blaming another and reports blaming both.
You're just blindly quoting the whaler's version of the story. While I didn't watch those episodes I did read about it and saw the collision videos on youtube.

A quick google search came up with this:



It kinda looks to be in motion, but then again I'm just blindly quoting the whaler's version of the story.
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about when they crashed that little speed boat the Earthrace. Even though I see no damage done on that video. I don't know nothing about the crash that you just showed so I'll shut my mouth up.
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
Gnabgib
Profile Joined July 2009
United States381 Posts
August 13 2010 14:43 GMT
#242
On August 15 2009 13:58 peidongyang wrote:
You should have seen the new movie about dolphins, what is it called? something cove..


google..: the cove LOL


FYI. The people that made the Cove are also The Sea Shepards, same group doing the whaling stuff in the first post.
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
August 13 2010 15:51 GMT
#243
On August 13 2010 23:06 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2010 15:27 kzn wrote:
Its stupid as fuck.

I don't have any issue with arguments along the lines of "whaling at X level is unsustainable", but when Greenpeace starts saying "whaling is unsustainable at any level" you know you're dealing with fanatic douchebags.

It is quite simple. There exists a population, lets call it X, at which whales can grow their population by Y each year. This is a sustainable population. The fact that such a population exists is a necessary mathematical truth.

If you have problems with sustainability, fine - push for laws that put a quota on whaling takes every year, or whatever makes sure that whale populations don't fall below X. But there is nothing special about whales that makes them any different from deer or bison or any other fish, for that matter. If people want to eat whale, and they're willing to pay what it costs to get whale at a given level of scarcity, there is no reason they should not be allowed to do so.

Every time the fat fuck starts saying shit like "we want to put the fear into them that they put into whales" I rage.

Whales aren't fish. Moreover, the argument that there's nothing special about them is ludicrous. They're highly intelligent mammals, comparable in many ways, including emotionally, to humans. Whales, like other animals with which we have much in common, should arguably be treated in a manner distinct from the way we treat biological drones like bees plankton, (most) fish... There's also the fact that whales perform a vital function in their ecosystem. I'm no expert on marine ecosystems so I won't pretend to know to what degree it is defensible to interfere from that point of view. Point being that there is more than one factor to be considered. This is something you'd better pound into that head of yours before making blanket statements.



Who the fuck are Westerners to decide which animal is defensible to eat or not? Where do you draw the line between which animal is smart enough not to be eaten or not? The pig is one of the smartest mammals in the planet, up there with apes and dolphins. Just admit that it's really the "cuteness" factor to Westerners that drives these decisions, not anything scientific.

I'm all for protecting endangered species, but it is questionable whether the whales the Japanese hunt are even endangered anymore. The International Whaling Commission was actually established to set sustainable limits on whaling. The guy got it right that they became fanatic douchebags who want an all out ban no matter what.

If you want to be environmentally friendly, raising beef is the most environmentally destructive of them all.
Vile Animus
Profile Joined June 2010
United States34 Posts
August 13 2010 21:54 GMT
#244
Someone forwarded one of Sea Sheppards' emails to a department wide address a couple years ago. Its so full of overwrought hyperbole I found it hilarious.

>In December we will sail into history and into harm's way on a
>journey of mercy and intervention in an effort to remove the violent
>human stain that so befouls the Southern Oceans with the murderous
>massacre of the harmless Leviathans


its a bit long;

+ Show Spoiler +

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:53:11 -0800
>From: Paul Watson <paulwatson@earthlink.net>
>To: Paul Watson <paul@seashepherd.org>
>Subject: Sea Shepherd - Preparations for Departure for Antarctica -
> Message from Captain Paul Watson
>
>
>Project Leviathan
>Sea Shepherd Conservation Society
>Preparations for Departure
>
>
>
>To all Sea Shepherd Crew and loyal supporters.
>
>I just want to encourage all of you to be positive, strong and
>supportive as we struggle to move two ships, a helicopter and two
>different crews into position to tackle the greatest whale killing
>monsters on this planet.
>
>Success is taking each obstacle and dealing with it and moving on to
>the next one. Success is never surrendering and always keeping an
>eye on the target, never wavering, never flinching, never being
>discouraged or distracted.
>
>We have international bureaucrats and politicians working against
>us, from South Africa to Canada, from Australia to Japan, from
>Antigua to Norway. We have other supposendly allied organizations
>undermining us. We even have the Japanese Yakuza supporting the
>whalers. We have technical problems to overcome, not to mention we
>are 1.1 million dollars in debt and that we have barely enough funds
>to cover the fuel for this most ambitious, most dangerous and most
>expensive expedition we have ever undertaken.
>
>But am I stressed out? No. I know we will do the very best we can
>with the resources we have to defend and protect as many whales as
>we possibly can from the horrendous thundering hellpoons of the
>damned imperial Japanese pirate whaling fleet.
>
>We have the time to do this campaign right. The hurdles are awesome
>and we don't have the money that Greenpeace, IFAW and others have.
>But we have something better, and that is a steadfast determination
>to stop thsse whale killers. We have a band of sixty men and women
>from over a dozen nations united in determination to make a
>difference and driven by an iron will to save lives.
>
>We don't have expensive direct mail programs or paid television
>advertising to solicit funds for support. But we do have a 12 year
>old Australian boy who walked the beach with a can and delivered
>over $250 last sunday. If only we had a thousand more like him.
>
>We have hurdles to overcome with moving both ships into position but
>WE WILL get both these ships down to the Southern Ocean and this
>year and WE WILL confront those lethal obscene exploding harpoons
>and electric lances.
>
>If need be we will return to New Zealand to refuel. We will not fail
>this year because we have invested to much money, gone heavily into
>debt and invested to much energy to fail. Most importantly we cannot
>and must not fail because our clients are depending on us.
>
>Our clients are the defenseless Piked, Fin and Humpback whales these
>vicious whale molesting thugs are stalking and killing.
>
>We don't sail into the path of lethal harpoons and giant steel ships
>through kidney jarring hellish seas and the gut wrenching storms of
>the Roaring Forties, the Furious Fifties and the Sea Sickening
>Sixties because we want to hang some silly little protest banners
>before laughing sadistic whale serial killers. We don't go down to
>the Southern Oceans to be polite, to be proper and to be politically
>correct.
>
>We go down there as Samurai. The word means To Serve and we serve
>the cause of the whales and their right to life and freedom from
>lethal molestation. We serve in the spirit of Miyamoto Musashi,
>Japan's greatest hero and philosopher who truly understood what the
>word meant, unlike these greed merchants who now run the nation of
>Japan like some brutal feudalistic corporation devoid of compassion
>and respect for nature.
>
>The only hope these whales have is us. They won't be saved by the
>passive chit chat of posturing politicians. They won't be saved by
>the snuff flick producing ocean posers. They won't be saved by all
>those direct-mail-species-of-the-month-club-feel-good-organizations
>with their petitions and admonishments to us that we are extremists
>because we seek to stop such wholesale cruelty and slaughter.
>
>In my heart there burns an emotional extremism ideed, and it boils
>like quaking magma with a fiery indignant wrath at the senseless
>cruel stupidity of humanity. For three decades I have harnessed this
>wrath and tamed it to allow me to intervene effectively without
>lashing out violently and personally at those who inflict the most
>horrific of deaths upon gentle sentient beings.
>
>But real extremism is the hot blood that flows in scarlet steaming
>streams into the frigid Antarctic waters. It is the heart breaking
>screams of harpooned whales as they cry out and struggle to live
>while their organs are shattered with the slashing hellish shrapnel
>of the exposive harpoon heads. It is the perversely diabolical sight
>of whales convulsing in agony at the tip of electric lances, and it
>is the smirking sneer of human conceit on the faces of the hardened
>killers who actually take pride in their monstrous bloody depravity.
>
>We are the only defense for these armless large brained Buddha
>beings, and we will overcome any and all obstacles from bureaucrats
>to heavy seas and foul weather to the ruthless attitude of the
>Japanese killers in our quest to protect them.
>
>We must give this campaign everything we have and we must sail with
>an audacious attitude into harm's way to deliver the message that no
>longer will the world tolerate the wholesale destruction of the
>great whales. We want the whale wars to be ended and whaling
>abolished and the industry relugated to the the foul dust bin of
>history with other evil embarassments of human enterprises like
>slavery, death camps and the inquisition.
>
>We must send the message that the murderous extermination of the
>whales will not be tolerated in the 21st Century and that the forces
>of ruthless greed and merciless profiteering can be defeated by the
>forces of passionate compassion.
>
>So let's tackle the obstacles, count down the miles and deliver
>ourselves from the opposite ends of this magnificent planet towards
>a point of confrontation where we will deliver a dramatic deserving
>showdown that will echo down the gilded corridors of the elitist
>Emperor's palace to pour onto the neon embalzoned strip of the
>Ginza. Lets make them sit up and notice!
>
>We will spend the holidays at sea on this great quest and we will
>herald in the New Year dwarfed by the magnificent tabletop icebergs
>off the Antarctic coast. We will scour the ice edge and outward with
>two ships and an aerial search, looking for the fleet of blubber
>stripping pirates whose ships literally drip with the hottest of
>blood and whose decks are sicky slick with the shattered brains and
>foul intestinal gore of the most intelligent, gentle and socially
>complex creatures on this planet.
>
>In December we will sail into history and into harm's way on a
>journey of mercy and intervention in an effort to remove the violent
>human stain that so befouls the Southern Oceans with the murderous
>massacre of the harmless Leviathans
>
>I beseech you for your support because your encouragagement for this
>campaign gives us the means and the motivation to send so many
>volunteers on a marathon quest to defend the lives of non-human
>species. This is a leap in the human evolution for the exercise of
>selfless acts of kindness.
>
>For the whales, the Oceans and the future.
>
>Thank-you
>
>
>
>Captain Paul Watson
>Founder and President of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (1977-
>Co-Founder - The Greenpeace Foundation (1972)
>Co-Founder - Greenpeace International (1979)
>Director of the Sierra Club USA (2003-2006)
>Director - The Farley Mowat Institute
>Director - www.harpseals.org
>
>
>www.Seashepherd.org
>Tel: 360-370-5650
>Fax: 360-370-5651
>
>Address: P.O. Box 2616
>Friday Harbor, Wa 98250 USA
>
>"Sail forth - steer for the deep waters only,
>Reckless O soul, exploring, I with thee and thou with me,
>For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
>And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all."
> - Walt Whitman
Jameser
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden951 Posts
August 14 2010 11:53 GMT
#245


made me lol :D
ModernAgeShaman
Profile Joined January 2008
Norway484 Posts
August 14 2010 12:43 GMT
#246


this video comes to my mind... a norwegian politician in a televised discussion about an incident in the 90s I think, where greenpeace activists boarded a whaling vessel and the whaling ship crew beat the shit out of them. it's in norwegian, but it's subtitled... this guy is hilarious
Fodder03
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada142 Posts
August 14 2010 12:44 GMT
#247
If we didnt have morons like the people on that ship, think about all the crap the rest of the morons on this planet would get away with.

I wont defend there actions directly but i do believe in fighting for what you think is right. Whalers are morons for killing endangered animals. THESE activist are morons for how they are going about there cause.

To anyone who says fuck the whales i dont care if they die, i say the same to you sir.
mumming
Profile Joined June 2010
Faroe Islands256 Posts
August 14 2010 13:10 GMT
#248
that guy Paul watson has been in our country many many times
hellbound
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom2242 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-14 13:52:09
August 14 2010 13:42 GMT
#249
Whalers are morons for killing endangered animals.


Not all whales are endangered, also the "pirates" defend them because they think they are cute from what I've seen on that program.

I, for one comprehend the situation as thus: On one side you have people who do a job for a living and on the other you have people who go out of their way to annoy before-mentioned people since it hurts their cute little vegan feelings. Same as the Koreans can't eat dog meat since we think so charade. Well tough luck, there are people with different views on things than yours and and they don't give a shit what you think as they should. So I am sticking to the people who have a job over the ones who try to save whales by spending lots of cash to go to the southern oceans and throw rotten eggs on whaling ships and fail to save any whales. While they could use that money to help people starving somewhere or something.

Just hope they go annoy less polite people then the Japanese and get beaten the crap out of again, going to watch that Norwegian politician now, should make my day...

[EDIT] Oh wow, brought a tear to my eye
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
August 14 2010 17:10 GMT
#250
On August 14 2010 00:51 andrewlt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 13 2010 23:06 wadadde wrote:
On July 07 2010 15:27 kzn wrote:
Its stupid as fuck.

I don't have any issue with arguments along the lines of "whaling at X level is unsustainable", but when Greenpeace starts saying "whaling is unsustainable at any level" you know you're dealing with fanatic douchebags.

It is quite simple. There exists a population, lets call it X, at which whales can grow their population by Y each year. This is a sustainable population. The fact that such a population exists is a necessary mathematical truth.

If you have problems with sustainability, fine - push for laws that put a quota on whaling takes every year, or whatever makes sure that whale populations don't fall below X. But there is nothing special about whales that makes them any different from deer or bison or any other fish, for that matter. If people want to eat whale, and they're willing to pay what it costs to get whale at a given level of scarcity, there is no reason they should not be allowed to do so.

Every time the fat fuck starts saying shit like "we want to put the fear into them that they put into whales" I rage.

Whales aren't fish. Moreover, the argument that there's nothing special about them is ludicrous. They're highly intelligent mammals, comparable in many ways, including emotionally, to humans. Whales, like other animals with which we have much in common, should arguably be treated in a manner distinct from the way we treat biological drones like bees plankton, (most) fish... There's also the fact that whales perform a vital function in their ecosystem. I'm no expert on marine ecosystems so I won't pretend to know to what degree it is defensible to interfere from that point of view. Point being that there is more than one factor to be considered. This is something you'd better pound into that head of yours before making blanket statements.



Who the fuck are Westerners to decide which animal is defensible to eat or not? Where do you draw the line between which animal is smart enough not to be eaten or not? The pig is one of the smartest mammals in the planet, up there with apes and dolphins. Just admit that it's really the "cuteness" factor to Westerners that drives these decisions, not anything scientific.

I'm all for protecting endangered species, but it is questionable whether the whales the Japanese hunt are even endangered anymore. The International Whaling Commission was actually established to set sustainable limits on whaling. The guy got it right that they became fanatic douchebags who want an all out ban no matter what.

If you want to be environmentally friendly, raising beef is the most environmentally destructive of them all.

Your rebuttal (of a statement I made in response to someone other than you) is deeply flawed. First of all, you disregard the fact that a ban on whaling is not exclusively a "western" issue. Maybe it's primarily Western nations that have taken the lead on this issue, but Japan is among the few nations who insist on killing whales as a luxury or cultural affairt. Their position is quite simple : we kill whales because we think whales are good eating. Now, I'm not suggesting that they (their government) aren't willing to compromise to a degree, when under pressure, but the really big issue I have with the Japanese people is that these issues of sustainability and animal rights are not compatible with their current mainstream cultural framework. This is troubling, especially where sustainability is concerned, precisely because they 1.don't have exclusive ownership of the world or the creatures that live in/on it. and 2. because the extinction, or the overfishing of a species of whale has serious consequences for entire ecosystems. It's really important to stress that they 1. do NOT depend on whale meat for food.. it's not a major market and 2. as I previously mentioned, they do not own the whales they kill. If everything on this earth belongs to someone, then the whales in international waters (for instance around Antrctica) belong to me as much as they belong to a random Japanese person. Do you understand that their actions can reasonably be equated to theft? I hope that you can at least see some truth in this.
I am not necessairily interested in battling freely adopted modes of living. It only becomes an issue when the behaviour infringes on my rights/interests and arguably those of the vast majority of the world.
In a way I couldn't care less about what they believe to be just. On the other hand, their attitude betrays something which simply isn't healthy for a society interested in enduring. Maybe the issue of whaling is just an isolated case, but this attitude of complete disinterest with regard to the issue at hand isn't sane. A society that is so focussed inwards that it doesn't see that its nature/culture is precisely the thing which will (if not curtailed) destroy that very way of life, is borderline insane. Japan is a fishing nation. It really does depend on the ocean for sustenance. Why are issues like the ones we're talking about not on the front burner there?

I share your opinion about our meat industries. We share an insanity with them and my position is not against the Japanese way of life per se. My position is one that rages against a deep seeded insanity. People keep pretending that global warming is controversial, however, the far less controversial issue of ocean acidification is hardly even discussed. The high level of CO2 is driving the acidification of the oceans and the only way we can mitigate the effects (until the situation becomes reversed) is by reducing the pressures on affected ecosystems. I can understand the economic drivers behind the unwillingness to take into account the science, but what we don't need is some silly dogmatic position to make battling the very real problems even more problematic. This isn't about double standards. Dogmatism should never be allowed to get in the way of survival. Many civilisations no longer exist because they refused to adapt to changing conditions.

I'm not interested in defending everything about these activists. I have my own reasons for being somewhat sympathetic to their struggle. I am not just a Westerner. I am a human and I would like the way humans organise my world to not unnecessairily damage me, my family, my community, my nation, or my world.. It's not impossible if we keep our eyes open.

(Pigs lack emotional characteristics we share with the whales, by the way. It's not too important, but we can't take the position that simply because drawing lines seems arbitrary, that we then have to proceed to draw the line where the least compassionate/idealistic people want the line to be drawn. I was merely expressing an observation. I was not attempting to construct a logic that inevitably leads to one particular conclusion.)
Peace
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
August 14 2010 17:24 GMT
#251
On August 14 2010 22:42 hellbound wrote:
Show nested quote +
Whalers are morons for killing endangered animals.


Not all whales are endangered, also the "pirates" defend them because they think they are cute from what I've seen on that program.

I, for one comprehend the situation as thus: On one side you have people who do a job for a living and on the other you have people who go out of their way to annoy before-mentioned people since it hurts their cute little vegan feelings. Same as the Koreans can't eat dog meat since we think so charade. Well tough luck, there are people with different views on things than yours and and they don't give a shit what you think as they should. So I am sticking to the people who have a job over the ones who try to save whales by spending lots of cash to go to the southern oceans and throw rotten eggs on whaling ships and fail to save any whales. While they could use that money to help people starving somewhere or something.

Just hope they go annoy less polite people then the Japanese and get beaten the crap out of again, going to watch that Norwegian politician now, should make my day...

[EDIT] Oh wow, brought a tear to my eye

lol
so : indifferent greed > passionate activism
sigh
bmml
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom962 Posts
August 14 2010 17:32 GMT
#252
On August 15 2010 02:10 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 00:51 andrewlt wrote:
On August 13 2010 23:06 wadadde wrote:
On July 07 2010 15:27 kzn wrote:
Its stupid as fuck.

I don't have any issue with arguments along the lines of "whaling at X level is unsustainable", but when Greenpeace starts saying "whaling is unsustainable at any level" you know you're dealing with fanatic douchebags.

It is quite simple. There exists a population, lets call it X, at which whales can grow their population by Y each year. This is a sustainable population. The fact that such a population exists is a necessary mathematical truth.

If you have problems with sustainability, fine - push for laws that put a quota on whaling takes every year, or whatever makes sure that whale populations don't fall below X. But there is nothing special about whales that makes them any different from deer or bison or any other fish, for that matter. If people want to eat whale, and they're willing to pay what it costs to get whale at a given level of scarcity, there is no reason they should not be allowed to do so.

Every time the fat fuck starts saying shit like "we want to put the fear into them that they put into whales" I rage.

Whales aren't fish. Moreover, the argument that there's nothing special about them is ludicrous. They're highly intelligent mammals, comparable in many ways, including emotionally, to humans. Whales, like other animals with which we have much in common, should arguably be treated in a manner distinct from the way we treat biological drones like bees plankton, (most) fish... There's also the fact that whales perform a vital function in their ecosystem. I'm no expert on marine ecosystems so I won't pretend to know to what degree it is defensible to interfere from that point of view. Point being that there is more than one factor to be considered. This is something you'd better pound into that head of yours before making blanket statements.



Who the fuck are Westerners to decide which animal is defensible to eat or not? Where do you draw the line between which animal is smart enough not to be eaten or not? The pig is one of the smartest mammals in the planet, up there with apes and dolphins. Just admit that it's really the "cuteness" factor to Westerners that drives these decisions, not anything scientific.

I'm all for protecting endangered species, but it is questionable whether the whales the Japanese hunt are even endangered anymore. The International Whaling Commission was actually established to set sustainable limits on whaling. The guy got it right that they became fanatic douchebags who want an all out ban no matter what.

If you want to be environmentally friendly, raising beef is the most environmentally destructive of them all.


[snip]

(Pigs lack emotional characteristics we share with the whales, by the way.



Certain studies say otherwise, give it a google / new scientist search.
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10469 Posts
August 14 2010 18:00 GMT
#253
There's also the issue that it's hard to kill a whale humanely. The one that they showed being killed on the show they just harpooned it and brought it to the surface and then they started firing a high powered rifle at it's head. 20 minutes and a dozen shots later and it finally died probably from bleeding out or drowning.

There was also a lot of meat eaters that wouldn't eat veal because of the way they were treated. So it wasn't all about animals being more cute or majestic because I don't think a calf is any more special than a cow.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
August 14 2010 18:08 GMT
#254
Ironically, Admiral Perry forced the Japanese ports open to whale hunt.
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
August 14 2010 21:08 GMT
#255
On August 15 2010 02:32 bmml wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2010 02:10 wadadde wrote:
On August 14 2010 00:51 andrewlt wrote:
On August 13 2010 23:06 wadadde wrote:
On July 07 2010 15:27 kzn wrote:
Its stupid as fuck.

I don't have any issue with arguments along the lines of "whaling at X level is unsustainable", but when Greenpeace starts saying "whaling is unsustainable at any level" you know you're dealing with fanatic douchebags.

It is quite simple. There exists a population, lets call it X, at which whales can grow their population by Y each year. This is a sustainable population. The fact that such a population exists is a necessary mathematical truth.

If you have problems with sustainability, fine - push for laws that put a quota on whaling takes every year, or whatever makes sure that whale populations don't fall below X. But there is nothing special about whales that makes them any different from deer or bison or any other fish, for that matter. If people want to eat whale, and they're willing to pay what it costs to get whale at a given level of scarcity, there is no reason they should not be allowed to do so.

Every time the fat fuck starts saying shit like "we want to put the fear into them that they put into whales" I rage.

Whales aren't fish. Moreover, the argument that there's nothing special about them is ludicrous. They're highly intelligent mammals, comparable in many ways, including emotionally, to humans. Whales, like other animals with which we have much in common, should arguably be treated in a manner distinct from the way we treat biological drones like bees plankton, (most) fish... There's also the fact that whales perform a vital function in their ecosystem. I'm no expert on marine ecosystems so I won't pretend to know to what degree it is defensible to interfere from that point of view. Point being that there is more than one factor to be considered. This is something you'd better pound into that head of yours before making blanket statements.



Who the fuck are Westerners to decide which animal is defensible to eat or not? Where do you draw the line between which animal is smart enough not to be eaten or not? The pig is one of the smartest mammals in the planet, up there with apes and dolphins. Just admit that it's really the "cuteness" factor to Westerners that drives these decisions, not anything scientific.

I'm all for protecting endangered species, but it is questionable whether the whales the Japanese hunt are even endangered anymore. The International Whaling Commission was actually established to set sustainable limits on whaling. The guy got it right that they became fanatic douchebags who want an all out ban no matter what.

If you want to be environmentally friendly, raising beef is the most environmentally destructive of them all.


[snip]

(Pigs lack emotional characteristics we share with the whales, by the way.



Certain studies say otherwise, give it a google / new scientist search.

Alrighty then, My understanding may be outdated. I'll look into it. Good thing I put it in braquets, I guess.
hellbound
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom2242 Posts
August 15 2010 20:56 GMT
#256
On August 15 2010 02:24 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 22:42 hellbound wrote:
Whalers are morons for killing endangered animals.


Not all whales are endangered, also the "pirates" defend them because they think they are cute from what I've seen on that program.

I, for one comprehend the situation as thus: On one side you have people who do a job for a living and on the other you have people who go out of their way to annoy before-mentioned people since it hurts their cute little vegan feelings. Same as the Koreans can't eat dog meat since we think so charade. Well tough luck, there are people with different views on things than yours and and they don't give a shit what you think as they should. So I am sticking to the people who have a job over the ones who try to save whales by spending lots of cash to go to the southern oceans and throw rotten eggs on whaling ships and fail to save any whales. While they could use that money to help people starving somewhere or something.

Just hope they go annoy less polite people then the Japanese and get beaten the crap out of again, going to watch that Norwegian politician now, should make my day...

[EDIT] Oh wow, brought a tear to my eye

lol
so : indifferent greed > passionate activism
sigh


sure, retarded activism seems more suitable in this case though. That is if they really want to save some whales, if all they want is to make a good show it's greedvgreed mirror match up- boring as hell.
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
August 16 2010 00:09 GMT
#257
On August 15 2010 02:10 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2010 00:51 andrewlt wrote:
On August 13 2010 23:06 wadadde wrote:
On July 07 2010 15:27 kzn wrote:
Its stupid as fuck.

I don't have any issue with arguments along the lines of "whaling at X level is unsustainable", but when Greenpeace starts saying "whaling is unsustainable at any level" you know you're dealing with fanatic douchebags.

It is quite simple. There exists a population, lets call it X, at which whales can grow their population by Y each year. This is a sustainable population. The fact that such a population exists is a necessary mathematical truth.

If you have problems with sustainability, fine - push for laws that put a quota on whaling takes every year, or whatever makes sure that whale populations don't fall below X. But there is nothing special about whales that makes them any different from deer or bison or any other fish, for that matter. If people want to eat whale, and they're willing to pay what it costs to get whale at a given level of scarcity, there is no reason they should not be allowed to do so.

Every time the fat fuck starts saying shit like "we want to put the fear into them that they put into whales" I rage.

Whales aren't fish. Moreover, the argument that there's nothing special about them is ludicrous. They're highly intelligent mammals, comparable in many ways, including emotionally, to humans. Whales, like other animals with which we have much in common, should arguably be treated in a manner distinct from the way we treat biological drones like bees plankton, (most) fish... There's also the fact that whales perform a vital function in their ecosystem. I'm no expert on marine ecosystems so I won't pretend to know to what degree it is defensible to interfere from that point of view. Point being that there is more than one factor to be considered. This is something you'd better pound into that head of yours before making blanket statements.



Who the fuck are Westerners to decide which animal is defensible to eat or not? Where do you draw the line between which animal is smart enough not to be eaten or not? The pig is one of the smartest mammals in the planet, up there with apes and dolphins. Just admit that it's really the "cuteness" factor to Westerners that drives these decisions, not anything scientific.

I'm all for protecting endangered species, but it is questionable whether the whales the Japanese hunt are even endangered anymore. The International Whaling Commission was actually established to set sustainable limits on whaling. The guy got it right that they became fanatic douchebags who want an all out ban no matter what.

If you want to be environmentally friendly, raising beef is the most environmentally destructive of them all.

Your rebuttal (of a statement I made in response to someone other than you) is deeply flawed. First of all, you disregard the fact that a ban on whaling is not exclusively a "western" issue. Maybe it's primarily Western nations that have taken the lead on this issue, but Japan is among the few nations who insist on killing whales as a luxury or cultural affairt. Their position is quite simple : we kill whales because we think whales are good eating. Now, I'm not suggesting that they (their government) aren't willing to compromise to a degree, when under pressure, but the really big issue I have with the Japanese people is that these issues of sustainability and animal rights are not compatible with their current mainstream cultural framework. This is troubling, especially where sustainability is concerned, precisely because they 1.don't have exclusive ownership of the world or the creatures that live in/on it. and 2. because the extinction, or the overfishing of a species of whale has serious consequences for entire ecosystems. It's really important to stress that they 1. do NOT depend on whale meat for food.. it's not a major market and 2. as I previously mentioned, they do not own the whales they kill. If everything on this earth belongs to someone, then the whales in international waters (for instance around Antrctica) belong to me as much as they belong to a random Japanese person. Do you understand that their actions can reasonably be equated to theft? I hope that you can at least see some truth in this.
I am not necessairily interested in battling freely adopted modes of living. It only becomes an issue when the behaviour infringes on my rights/interests and arguably those of the vast majority of the world.
In a way I couldn't care less about what they believe to be just. On the other hand, their attitude betrays something which simply isn't healthy for a society interested in enduring. Maybe the issue of whaling is just an isolated case, but this attitude of complete disinterest with regard to the issue at hand isn't sane. A society that is so focussed inwards that it doesn't see that its nature/culture is precisely the thing which will (if not curtailed) destroy that very way of life, is borderline insane. Japan is a fishing nation. It really does depend on the ocean for sustenance. Why are issues like the ones we're talking about not on the front burner there?

I share your opinion about our meat industries. We share an insanity with them and my position is not against the Japanese way of life per se. My position is one that rages against a deep seeded insanity. People keep pretending that global warming is controversial, however, the far less controversial issue of ocean acidification is hardly even discussed. The high level of CO2 is driving the acidification of the oceans and the only way we can mitigate the effects (until the situation becomes reversed) is by reducing the pressures on affected ecosystems. I can understand the economic drivers behind the unwillingness to take into account the science, but what we don't need is some silly dogmatic position to make battling the very real problems even more problematic. This isn't about double standards. Dogmatism should never be allowed to get in the way of survival. Many civilisations no longer exist because they refused to adapt to changing conditions.

I'm not interested in defending everything about these activists. I have my own reasons for being somewhat sympathetic to their struggle. I am not just a Westerner. I am a human and I would like the way humans organise my world to not unnecessairily damage me, my family, my community, my nation, or my world.. It's not impossible if we keep our eyes open.

(Pigs lack emotional characteristics we share with the whales, by the way. It's not too important, but we can't take the position that simply because drawing lines seems arbitrary, that we then have to proceed to draw the line where the least compassionate/idealistic people want the line to be drawn. I was merely expressing an observation. I was not attempting to construct a logic that inevitably leads to one particular conclusion.)
Peace



The problem is that many whale species are not really endangered. The entire premise of your argument is based on a fallacy. Your argument is based on your mistaken assumption that the Japanese do not care about the environment at all and would just destroy everything.

Whales can be harvested sustainably. Stop thinking that the killing of even one whale will destroy entire ecosystems. There are enough whale species that are not endangered in the ocean that whaling that can be allowed with strict quotas. The problem the Japanese have is that many countries refuse to even consider a quota and would just like to completely ban whaling at all because of their cuteness. It's really not just the Japanese. I believe Finland also pulled out of the organization. Canada is having similar problems with regards to seals, another "cute" sea creature.

If you look at it holistically, the animals you eat are also important to their ecosystem. It's not just the cute animals that are important to their ecosystem, but the ugly ones as well. However, many Westerners seem to have no problem with sustainably eating the ugly animals. Hey, if it's sustainable, does it matter how cute the animal is?

Your last paragraph displays the "cuteness" bias perfectly. You believe there is something special about whales because they are cuter than pigs. At least you were willing to admit you're wrong, but that's precisely my problem with these types of discussion in the Western world. There is too much pseudo-scientific garbage floating around about the animals Westerners don't like to eat. The stuff about dogs, cats, horses and the like are just as scientific as the
Hindu belief that cows are sacred, which is to say, not at all. The entire argument about whaling is just completely tainted by Western cultural bias.

You have the wrong impression about Japanese attitude towards the environment. They are one of the cleanest, greenest countries in the world with the lowest emissions of greenhouse gases. If you've ever heard the warnings about undercooked pork and poultry, understand that that's just because of the disgusting way these animals are raised in the U.S. and many other Western countries. It's perfectly fine to eat raw chicken in Japan. There's no salmonella at all.
RedTerror
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
New Zealand742 Posts
August 16 2010 00:57 GMT
#258
Commercial whaling is banned. What Japan is doing currently is a giant slap in the face.
NuKedUFirst
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada3139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-16 01:36:20
August 16 2010 01:35 GMT
#259
On August 16 2010 09:57 RedTerror wrote:
Commercial whaling is banned. What Japan is doing currently is a giant slap in the face.


This man knows what he is talking about ^^

Whaling is illegal in international waters. It blows my mind how the world can just let this happen. What Japan is doing is "avoiding" the law. The law states that you can capture a whale for research hence why they have "RESEARCH" painted on their boats. Which is wrong of Japan to do such a thing. This is the 21st century, Japan isn't just "some crazy country" they are very important to the world as far as economy goes but what they are going is wrong. Some thing with shark fin.

-As far as the Sea Shepard goes, I think they are doing a good job at what they are doing. Incase any of you didn't notice, the reason why they have a show - Whale wars is to show what the whalers are doing and to promote the cause aswell as fund their organization.

In no way do I think that the Sea Shepard is "crazy" or "going to extreme" They are simply fighting fire with fire seeing as many countries are just looking the other way.

FrostedMiniWeet wrote: I like winning because it validates all the bloody time I waste playing SC2.
Celestial
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States652 Posts
August 16 2010 15:22 GMT
#260
Honestly the amount of effort for the extreme actions they do on the show could probably better be spent persuading the people who eat whale meat to eat other kinds, probably maybe even help pay for it. I don't know, this show seems extremely inefficient with the way they're going about things.
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