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On February 17 2011 10:08 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:35 Empyrean wrote:On February 17 2011 09:33 stevarius wrote:On February 17 2011 09:13 Yttrasil wrote:
I hate the suspension, I love whale meat especially on sushi and I find it just as stupid to stop hunting whales as stopping to eat normal conventional meat. Don't want to give up on it just cause some stupid organizations use whatever weapons they can find to stop whaling.
Let people make their own choise what to do, if demand ceases then it obviously will stop same as with any other thing. God I hate groups like this and Greenpeace, making life hard for us people who wants to live our lives free. You think whales want to be eaten? Why can't they swim free like we can traverse the earth free? They're mammals like us. I sure as hell don't want to be harpooned and dragged onto a ship dying, why should a whale? If you want to acknowledge this idea of freedom, you have to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom caused by the actions of those who have the freedom. The same argument can be made of cows. Generally to Keniji and Stavarius Yep, I don't see why they should be treated differently than lets say cows. They are not even endangered especially not the one being mainly hunted so that arguement of not being able to watch them is for naught. It's like saying we should not kill cows because in the future we might not be able to see them, the same goes for whales. Using that argument that whales are free, then why should whales be treated differently from again the cows? They certainly don't want to be eaten either. :D What if a whale wants to be eaten, should it be allowed then?  So let me then try this argument, if we can catch and kill whales in a humane way, should it then be allowed? If you say no then you argue against yourself... if you say yes well then all your other arguments fall.
That is generally how most Asian people think about the situation. Buddhist teachings encourage the idea of equality amongst all living beings. Hence a whale is no different to a cow, it's all food. Western sentiments of a whale being more "beautiful", "majestic" and deserving of life than a cow doesn't compute.
On the topic of whaling for 'research' purposes, people don't seem to realise that the Japanese, as a member of the global community, have joined the International Whaling Commission (IWC) of their own free will. Under IWC rules (rules, not laws), whaling for 'research' is allowed. If you could get away with having an invisible friend by calling him God, wouldn't you?
The reason why the Japanese have resorted to whaling under the guise of 'research' is due to the following reasons:
1. Japan joined the IWC in the belief that rational argument would dictate policy.
2. In the late 1980s, the data for minke whales showed that they were probably not endangered. (Probably because obtaining exact numbers of whales is impossible).
3. Greenpeace, seeing that they were losing the argument, resorts to propaganda to win the war. (read: whales are cute, the Japanese whaling vessel rammed us (outright lie), hostages, racial slurs [read from one of these two books:
Kalland, A & Moeran, B 1992, Japanese Whaling: End of an Era?, Curzon Press Ltd, London, Ellis, R 1991, Men and Whales, Random House Inc., New York]).
4. Governments pressured by a now misled public, propose and implement a complete ban on whaling. Japan views this move as irrational. BBC News
5. Japanese resentment at having all the blame of whale depopulation laid at their feet, despite the fact that the majority of depopulation was caused by other nations.
6. Japan had actually agreed to cease all whaling by 1988 in return for fishing rights in US waters. Who do you think screwed that deal up?
In a bid to develop their own industry, US fishermen were pushing for the removal of foreign access to US waters. They were aided by a coalition of 14 NGOs led by Greenpeace who went to court against Japan, claiming its fishing methods harmed porpoises, seals and birds. Source: BBC News
The Japanese, being a nation which values saving face, having being cheated like that are deeply angered and humiliated.
7. Good morning world!
8. Japanese whaling is a significant part of their heritage and culture dating back to the 13th or 14th century (not too sure about about the centuries).
In short, I don't agree with whaling, but only due to the inhumane forms of capture. If they improved on that and managed to keep whaling at a sustainable level, I would have no problem with it. All other arguments are basically null and void.
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I agree with most of your points, however, I'd like to highlight a certain one:
The Japanese, being a nation which values saving face, having being cheated like that are deeply angered and humiliated.
The Japanese, in quite recent history have cheated millions of Asians out of their lives, and even more out of their dignity. I'm not one to live in the past, but Japan has hardly earned the position of the ethical arbiter because it has refrained from committing horrific crimes against humanity in the past sixty years.
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Most awesome show ever.
Amazing how corrupt people can be, and care more about their own status and comforts more than they care about other animals being alive.
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On February 17 2011 13:05 s_side wrote:
I agree with most of your points, however, I'd like to highlight a certain one:
The Japanese, being a nation which values saving face, having being cheated like that are deeply angered and humiliated.
The Japanese, in quite recent history have cheated millions of Asians out of their lives, and even more out of their dignity. I'm not one to live in the past, but Japan has hardly earned the position of the ethical arbiter because it has refrained from committing horrific crimes against humanity in the past sixty years.
Atrocities committed almost 3 generations ago. Japan has come a long way since then, and if you really are one not to live in the past, you should be able to see.
Now, I don't believe anyone is capable of passing judgment on a whole nation, so I'm finding it hard to believe that you can justify your statement that Japan has yet earned the position of an ethical arbiter. I'm not saying that they have though.
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On February 17 2011 13:51 TOloseGT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 13:05 s_side wrote:
I agree with most of your points, however, I'd like to highlight a certain one:
The Japanese, being a nation which values saving face, having being cheated like that are deeply angered and humiliated.
The Japanese, in quite recent history have cheated millions of Asians out of their lives, and even more out of their dignity. I'm not one to live in the past, but Japan has hardly earned the position of the ethical arbiter because it has refrained from committing horrific crimes against humanity in the past sixty years. Atrocities committed almost 3 generations ago. Japan has come a long way since then, and if you really are one not to live in the past, you should be able to see.
Err, not really, they still haven't owned up to any of their shit, Japan ought to learn from Germany.
Personally, as long as the whales hunted aren't endangered, I don't see a problem with whaling.
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On February 17 2011 10:05 NIJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:14 Nightfall.589 wrote:On August 17 2010 00:22 Celestial wrote:
Honestly the amount of effort for the extreme actions they do on the show could probably better be spent persuading the people who eat whale meat to eat other kinds, probably maybe even help pay for it. I don't know, this show seems extremely inefficient with the way they're going about things. I've dated a girl from Japan for three years. In those three years, I've learned that it's easier to move Mt. Fuji, then it is to convince the Japanese that they should reconsider some part of their traditional culture. It doesn't help that anyone doing so is labelled a racist. Rrrrrrright. Cause clearly japanese historically were terrible at discarding/adopting cultural practices when it suited them... o wait. You fuck one japanese girl and think you know them all. I wonder why they label you a racist. Hmm...
There's a difference between refusing to discard cultural practices, and refusing to apply introspection to your culture. Mind you, that's not uniquely a Japanese trait. Immediately playing the racism card, on the other hand, seems to be.
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Well, the status of the global whale population shouldn't really be included here. It should be if these guys are actually doing what they say (being effective), or just endangering people and the environment needlessly, and wasting a ton of money that would be much more effective for their goals if used elsewhere.
Then again, they wouldn't get all this money if they didn't show them actually doing action, no matter how retarded. Politics and international law is boring, no oen gives money to boring things.
I would say that some of the people that join them have genuinely good intentions; but for Peter Brown, Paul Watson and others, it's just a crusade for personal glory (clusterfuck of retarded decisions), with which they do not care who they step on to get their names and faces on a page of history.
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When I say it shouldn't be included, I'm trying to get across that, no matter what your main goal is, bad/good/useless, if you can't achieve it, or if you do it unethically, then you're a failure.
Whales don't even need to come near that.
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On February 17 2011 09:33 stevarius wrote:
You think whales want to be eaten? Why can't they swim free like we can traverse the earth free? They're mammals like us. I sure as hell don't want to be harpooned and dragged onto a ship dying, why should a whale?
If you want to acknowledge this idea of freedom, you have to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom caused by the actions of those who have the freedom.
Food chain. Do you know it? Also think about your post the next time you're greasing yourself in a nice, spicy kebab. I bet that lamb had a pretty sweet life, before it got shot in the head.
I'm not against breeding, killing and eating - nor hunting the non endangered species, but finding the most efficient way to kill the animal in the least painful way is a must.
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On February 17 2011 10:08 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 09:35 Empyrean wrote:On February 17 2011 09:33 stevarius wrote:On February 17 2011 09:13 Yttrasil wrote:
I hate the suspension, I love whale meat especially on sushi and I find it just as stupid to stop hunting whales as stopping to eat normal conventional meat. Don't want to give up on it just cause some stupid organizations use whatever weapons they can find to stop whaling.
Let people make their own choise what to do, if demand ceases then it obviously will stop same as with any other thing. God I hate groups like this and Greenpeace, making life hard for us people who wants to live our lives free. You think whales want to be eaten? Why can't they swim free like we can traverse the earth free? They're mammals like us. I sure as hell don't want to be harpooned and dragged onto a ship dying, why should a whale? If you want to acknowledge this idea of freedom, you have to acknowledge the deprivation of freedom caused by the actions of those who have the freedom. The same argument can be made of cows. Generally to Keniji and Stavarius Yep, I don't see why they should be treated differently than lets say cows. They are not even endangered especially not the one being mainly hunted so that arguement of not being able to watch them is for naught. It's like saying we should not kill cows because in the future we might not be able to see them, the same goes for whales. Using that argument that whales are free, then why should whales be treated differently from again the cows? They certainly don't want to be eaten either. :D What if a whale wants to be eaten, should it be allowed then? So let me then try this argument, if we can catch and kill whales in a humane way, should it then be allowed? If you say no then you argue against yourself... if you say yes well then all your other arguments fall.
I can totally live with that. If we can catch them in a humane way. I don't say whale hunting is bad in general (hell, I love meat).
I don't really know which whales are endangered and which not, so yeah, I just wanted to show that "freedom" is not always that easy to define.
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HOW does anyone in this thread claim to know what a freaking whale wants or doesn't want?!
Are you a whale whisperer?
What if whales see their highest goal as being able to be sacrificed and eaten by people who they see as "the gods of the boats?"
Doesn't sound any more ridiculous to me than saying "obviously a whale doesn't want to be eaten."
1. Assuming a whale experiences wants and desires in the same way humans do.
2. Assuming that whales desire their own survival above all other things.
How do you know whales aren't ultimately altruistic, happy to exchange their own life for the food of others? Most of this discussion is just rubbish.
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On February 18 2011 00:08 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Are you a whale whisperer?
The image of Ceaser Millan in his wetsuit immediately came to my mind heeheehee.
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Edit: didn't read the entire thread for context, useless post.
Whaling is bad to some people, whaling is good to some people. Having an open discussion about it is a good idea, ramming boats is kind of stupid.
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On February 18 2011 00:08 LaughingTulkas wrote:
HOW does anyone in this thread claim to know what a freaking whale wants or doesn't want?!
Are you a whale whisperer?
What if whales see their highest goal as being able to be sacrificed and eaten by people who they see as "the gods of the boats?"
Doesn't sound any more ridiculous to me than saying "obviously a whale doesn't want to be eaten."
1. Assuming a whale experiences wants and desires in the same way humans do.
2. Assuming that whales desire their own survival above all other things.
How do you know whales aren't ultimately altruistic, happy to exchange their own life for the food of others? Most of this discussion is just rubbish.
Well, when they're harpooned, you'd think the whale would just stop resisting, perhaps to conserve the whaling ship's fuel.
Has history shown us any animal/species that likes to serve humankind? Their bellies in particular?
On February 17 2011 23:46 Roeder wrote:
Food chain. Do you know it?
By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets?
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rofl sea shephard, been a while since i heard about them.
I think they come to my school every year and try and recruit new members from the year 12 (at least they did for my year) with some fancy ass presentation.
was cool and everything with life on the sea etc. However they quickly got torn down by the smartasses of the school ahahaha.
My High school is the only selective school in the state. So pretty much the smartasses of smartasses owned these pirates on stage xD
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On February 18 2011 00:32 BasilPesto wrote:By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets?
There's nothing wrong with eating dogs and cats. That's a social thing. There are plenty of countries where dog and cat are good to eat.
(edited out bad example)
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On February 18 2011 00:50 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:32 BasilPesto wrote:On February 17 2011 23:46 Roeder wrote:
Food chain. Do you know it? By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets? There's nothing wrong with eating dogs and cats. That's a social thing. There are plenty of countries where dog and cat are good to eat. (edited out bad example)
Guinea pig and rabbit are pretty good meat as well.
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On February 18 2011 00:50 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:32 BasilPesto wrote:On February 17 2011 23:46 Roeder wrote:
Food chain. Do you know it? By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets? There's nothing wrong with eating dogs and cats. That's a social thing. There are plenty of countries where dog and cat are good to eat. (edited out bad example)
I wasn't questioning whether it was right or wrong. I had intended to show that simply arguing "Food chain!" and supposed human supremacy isn't the best argument when determining what can be hunted.
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On February 18 2011 00:59 BasilPesto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 00:50 goiflin wrote:On February 18 2011 00:32 BasilPesto wrote:On February 17 2011 23:46 Roeder wrote:
Food chain. Do you know it? By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets? There's nothing wrong with eating dogs and cats. That's a social thing. There are plenty of countries where dog and cat are good to eat. (edited out bad example) I wasn't questioning whether it was right or wrong. I had intended to show that simply arguing "Food chain!" and supposed human supremacy isn't the best argument when determining what can be hunted.
I see.
You're right, food chain is a pretty silly argument as to what can and can't be hunted.
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On February 18 2011 00:32 BasilPesto wrote:By that line of thought, dogs and cats are fair game too. What prevents us (well, in the Western world) from eating our pets?
At first dogs and cats were used for a purpose of work and not as house pets.
Cats kept rats and mice away - and dogs had a lot of jobs - so maybe they 'evolved' into becoming a companions instead of dinner.
But yeah, what does exactly prevent us (except law in some countries)?
I've heard dogmeat tastes great, but I'm not going to eat my lovely golden retriever because of that.
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EPT
