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The Goddamn Economy: A Civilized Version - Page 8

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ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 02:40:24
October 02 2008 02:36 GMT
#141
On October 02 2008 11:31 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2008 11:27 HeadBangaa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
Ok, I started writing this in my blog but I had such a negative reception because of my ahem *indignant* tone and I figured this was important enough that if that's what was costing me readers, I should post it again a little toned down. Frankly though, I am pissed about what's happening. It's something I feel passionate about. I think educating people is one way to keep shit like this from happening again, so here goes:

WARNING
IF YOU MAKE A STUPID POST I WILL KILL YOU

DISCLAIMER
+ Show Spoiler +
Fuck the false humility -- I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday, and I did large quantities of research specifically for this post. I think that will become apparent as you read it. However, I welcome corrections of any kind and I will update the post to reflect changes. Although if you're going to disagree with me outright, you better have some good reasoning.


The News Yesterday
The Bailout was rejected in a not-even-close vote in the House, and the stock markets plummetted. The DOW dropped, 800 points (9%), an all-time record, although proportionately less than the 20% it fell on Black Tuesday and 14% on 9/17, because of 9/11.

Deregulation

NOTE: This part is controversial, to be fair. Before you start spouting my left wing propoganda to your friends, read some of the other views on the causes of the current crisis in the thread below. Ignore the idiot posters, but definitely read what jgad has to say, and onemephisto.

WHAT IS DEREGULATION YOU ASK? In short, it's a fetish. Mostly Republicans have it, but Democrats too, under different circumstances. Technically, it's the belief that rules and regulations are bad for economic growth, and that the less regulation the better. This is true, as we'll see, to an extent. Anyway, sometimes the stars are in the right alignment, and Democrats and Republicans will come together in an all-night long orgy of deregulation. This happened in 1999, with the Financial Services Modernization Act, also called the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act after the people involved in the menage-a-trois that started it all. What this did was fuck you over. What it really did was repeal large portions of the Glass-Steagall act, which if you remember from history, was passed in 1933 to keep the Great Depression from happening again by regulating banking.

Regulations are not necessarily a bad thing. All economies need regulation. In an ideal world, when every investor has very good information about which companies will succeed and which will fail like ... like THE ECONOMY IS FAILING LOLOLOL ... we wouldn't need regulation, because the free market would regulate itself: bad investments won't find investors. But in reality, nobody has perfect information. A good analogy is if you're looking on Craigslist for a female companion, and they turn out to be a guy. You got bad information buddy. You got ripped off. As a result, you just wasted time and resources, and you hurt the economy because you could've used those resources for something productive, like posting on TL.

Regulation can also be a bad thing. More rules means more red tape, means higher costs to make any business transaction. The higher these costs, the less efficiently the economy operates. The key is finding the right balance: how much regulation and in what areas will give us the fastest growth and the most stability.

The FSMA (and many other bills which tbh, I don't know enough about) took it too far. It deregulated areas it shouldn't have. Most importantly, it led to the housing bubble.

The Housing Bubble: Subprime Mortgages and Stuff

First of all, you need to understand supply and demand to really understand the rest of this. Basically, the more there is of something and the easier and cheaper it is to produce, the less something will cost. The more people want something (demand), the higher something will cost. These two forces interact to create an "equilibrium price", which is the price at which a perfectly competitive market will sell that good for.

Houses are really expensive. It would take years, even decades, for most people to save up the money they need to buy a home. For that reason, banks offer a little service they like to call "mortgages". In a mortgage, the bank lends you the money you need to buy a home, on the condition that you will pay it back PLUS a premium of x%. Mortgages are a product, just like a car is a product. In exchange for letting you buy a home sooner, you pay the bank a premium. Ideally, banks would only lend money to people they were sure could pay them back: people who had a clean criminal record, good credit, and a solid income.

Unfortunately, because of deregulation, this didn't always happen. Banks and less reputable financial organizations began lending to the "sub-prime" market. These were people whose credit history meant they had a good chance of defaulting on their loan. One reason banks made these loans was because they figured that housing prices would keep rising forever. If these guys couldn't pay back their loan, we'll just repossess the house and sell it at a profit to someone who can!!!1111 (LOL HOW WRONG THEY WERE).

+ Show Spoiler +
correction for below paragraph: I said earlier that the banks packaged them into Collateralized Debt Obligations. Wrong. Actually, the secondary mortgage market -- Mae/Mac did this.


After selling a bunch of these mortgages, banks would sell them in the secondary mortgage market to investors. You're probably thinking, "how do you sell debt???" It's simple, just remember that loans are a product. In exchange for paying for the total sum of the loan, the investor gets a portion of the premium the borrowers pay the bank. Because of rising housing costs, these mortgage backed securities were considered good investments, and were quite popular, to the point that they were acquired in the trillions of dollars by investors here and overseas.

The Housing Bubble Deflates

So long as investors kept buying mortgage backed securities, banks continued to make subprime loans. Essentially, they were speculating: gambling that because housing prices would keep rising, they would eventually make a killing. Unfortunately, speculation has the added effect of artificially inflating demand, raising prices. Thus the financial system created a self-fulfilling prophecy: By betting on increased housing prices, they made housing prices increase, creating the housing bubble.

Of course, this couldn't go on forever. Eventually, the rise in housing costs outpaced what consumers were willing to pay. This began in July 19, 2007, when the DOW hit an all-time record high. A month later, the DOW had fallen by 7%. Among the worst hit were mortgage lenders. When stocks become a bear market (it increases in volatility, and is tending toward falling), what naturally happens is that investors put their money on "safer" investments, commodities in particular. Billions were withdrawn from the mortgage industry and as a result, and banks responded by tightening their credit belts and raising interest rates.

The people on the front lines of this crisis were the subprime lenders. Most of them had signed up for Adjustable Rate Mortgages -- meaning that their interest rates were subject to change -- hoping that the inflating housing market would mean that the interest rates would gradually decline in respect to real wages. Because sub-prime mortgage lenders had been hit so hard in the stock market, they needed to raise capital, fast. So they increased interest rates. The reasoning was that even if these people couldn't pay back their loans, the banks would foreclose on them and they could sell the houses again for money. The problem with this logic was supply and demand: Because millions of homes were being foreclosed across the country at THE SAME TIME, supply went up. Because banks were tightening their credit and it was becoming harder to get a mortgage, demand was down. These two factors combined to create rapid deflation in the housing market that is still continuing today.

After a while, as banks hemorrhaged more and more money, it became not just the subprime borrowers who got fucked over, but prime borrowers as well. This happened because banks had to really tighten up credit everywhere to keep themselves afloat. Rising interest rates, combined with declining wages and increased unemployment sent even qualified homeowners into foreclosure, dropping housing prices further. This is an important theme that will appear again and again here: as one sector of the economy blows up, the rest must make up for it.

While we normally think of inflation as an indicator of an economy gone sour, in this case deflation is much worse. The more housing prices fall, the less money banks can get back from their bad loans, and the more investors lose on their mortgage backed securities.

The Next Domino: Wall Street

Until now, I haven't really talked much about what's happening right now with wall street. But this is crucial to understanding the bailout. Everything in the economy relates with what's happening now, including your wages and how long you'll be holding on to your job. People tend to think of wall street as the place rich people go to make more money, but that's just not true. When you deposit money into a bank or certificate of deposit or savings account or mutual fund or hedge fund or whatever, that money doesn't just sit there and magically grow. It's invested. Without investment, if everybody just hoarded the money they had, the economy would cease to grow. Without investment and easy access to credit, you can't start a new business, buy a new tractor for your farm, or buy a new home. Credit and investment is everything.

Bear Stearns was among the first big names to go. Bear Stearns was an investment bank, meaning you didn't just go to a bear stearns office and start a checking account. People put large sums of money into Bear Stearns through equity (shares of stock) or their "wealth management" division that got invested into things like other investment companies, oil, and SUB-PRIME MORTGAGES. Obviously, it's the last that did Bear Sterns in. What was so shocking is how fast it happened. One day Bears was trading at $130 a share, the next they were down to $10 or $20. The reason for the rapid decline was the fact that the executives over at Bear Stearns finally decided to admit just how much money they lost in the two hedge funds they had that specialized in sub-prime mortgages. BOOM! And the floor fell out right under those poor investment bankers. The only way they could even sell their company off was if the fed promised JPMorgan Chase it would cover any losses they suffered from buying out Stearns.

Which brings me to federal bailouts. I don't have the energy to cover every bailout (although I will do more work on Mae and Mac later), but in general, here's the reasoning behind them: When an investor loses lots of money in whatever, that makes them much less likely to invest again in the same sector because 1) they have less money to invest 2) they don't want to take the risk. When someone loses a few billion in mortgage backed securities, they are less likely to invest in mortgages again. The federal reserve feels it has to bail out or at least guarantee the solvency of these companies because if they were to go bankrupt, the consequent losses would have such a powerful damping effect on investment it would exacerbate the housing and credit crisis. I will openly admit that my knowledge of investment banking is limited. I think Last Romantic who is majoring in this shit (POOR GUY) knows more than I do, and if he reads this he can fill you all in more. But here's a quick review of what's going on:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

onemephisto posted an excellent review of the history of these mortgage giants, and how they contributed to the housing bubble very significantly:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 01 2008 07:11 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 05:53 ahrara_ wrote:I'm pretty sure I covered this under Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, although not with detail. I would argue that deregulation contributed, but that deregulation of mae/mac contributed more. My background knowledge on the two companies is poor, so if you can fill me in that'd be cool. I could add it it to the post under a spoiler, just make sure it's well written.

Well, how I understand it:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were originally both created by the government as government agencies, but were later partially privatized, resulting in them being called Government Sponsored Enterprises, or GSEs. Their purpose was to use their large supply of capital to buy mortgages off of the market, repackage them into securities and other derivatives, and then sell them to other firms.

However, even though they are partially privatized, they still retain a lot of government control and influence. They're regulated by Department of Housing and Urban Development (I think this started in the early 90s) and are chartered by Congress. Since HUD has become their regulator, they have had yearly goals; they're supposed to buy a certain amount of "affordable" loans (read: low-down-payment loans to low-income families). Of course, this sounds good, as everyone wants low-income families to have housing right? However, the fact is that many people simply can't afford housing, and the government mandate for Fannie and Freddie to buy these bad loans has made them viable for banks to offer (especially considering how large Fannie and Freddie are, they buy something like 40% of mortgages created each year). And to encourage even more of these subprime loans, Congress also passed a law giving tax credits to Fannie and Freddie when they bought subprime securities, further increasing the demand for them.

So these government mandates and incentives greatly increased the amount of bad loans the Fannie and Freddie bought. What allowed other banks and investment firms to buy these repackaged securities from F&F was the implicit government guarantee behind them, basically, since the government had so much stake in F&F, people assumed that the government wouldn't let them fail or let their liabilities disappear (which was obviously true), creating a moral hazard situation where people disregard risk because there is no downside to failing.

So government regulation and interference with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac contributed to the creation of the bubble, and the implicit government guarantee behind the securities allowed it to spread.

Of course, this isn't the only reason, but there are also many other government regulations that have helped create this crisis. The Community Reinvestment Act, which was substantially strengthened in 1995, mandated that banks make a certain amount of loans to low-income families, again creating a misallocation of resources into the housing market. There was also a recent act that reduced the capital gains taxes that people had to pay on homes substantially, but I can't find a source atm.

I'm not clearing investors of all blame, sure, they acted greedy, ignored risks, and took advantage of new derivatives and the market situation. But I'm saying that fundamentally, the problem was with too much government regulation and interference, not too little. More government regulation probably could've delayed this problem, but it would've only been a short-term fix to the underlying problems introduced by the government itself.

tl;dr, Government mandates for affordable housing loans to low-interest families and it's control over the Government Sponsored Enterprises of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the underlying driving force for the creation and subsequent popping of this bubble.



This bailout was absolutely crucial. I told you earlier that Mortgaged Backed Securities were sold by the people who did the lending in the first place, right? Before that happens, the individual debts are sold in the "Secondary Mortgage Market" to Mae/Mac, these two semi-governmental entities created during the Great Depression to make it easier for people to get homes. These two companies serve as "lubricants" of the housing market. They help money flow to where housing demand is highest. For example, if I am a banker and where I live all of a sudden has a huge increase in demand for homes, but I only have a little bit of capital to lend, I can look to Mae/Mac to fully exploit this demand and meet the needs of the market. These guys together were responsible for 70% of American mortgages. SEVENTY FUCKING PERCENT HOLY SHIT.

But Because of Democrat idiocy (SORRY BUT OUR PARTY ISN'T PERFECT, DURRR), these two lenders are practically unregulated. The idea was that this would help them make it easier for people to get a home. What it actually did was to enhance the "moral hazard" situation for home lenders. Because they knew they could just sell off sub-prime mortgages to Mae/Mac, they made more subprime loans, but wiped their hands clean of the risk when they sold it. This is what economists call Moral Hazard: when somebody does something risky but the consequences of that risk is felt by someone else. It encourages unwise behavior like subprime lending. If I press a button that maybe kills YOU, I am more likely to press the button than if it maybe killed ME.

Here's the thing. When Mae/Mac sell those Collateralized Debt Obligations/Mortgage Backed Securities, they guarantee to the investor that they will pay them the full value of the investment even if the homeowner defaults on the mortgage. Uh oh. Moral Hazard anybody? Anyway, if these two companies failed, there would be TRILLIONS of dollars of losses globally. I'll go more into why that's bad specifically for the housing crisis later (although it should be obvious it's a bad thing in general).

Lehman Brothers

Allowed to go bankrupt because fed felt they did not have assets into crucial enough areas of the economy. The reason Bear Stearns was "guaranteed" was because it collapsed so quickly, and for classification reasons was outside of the fed's oversight jurisdiction, so it wasn't possible if Stearns was important to the market.

American International Group

AIG is unique because it is an insurance company that has its fingers everywhere, in every sector of the economy. It specialized in "credit default swaps" which I'm not going to even pretend to understand completely, but basically they guaranteed through insurance a lot of bad debt investments, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It absolutely COULD. NOT. fail. Without going into detail, it was still a profitable organization, but because of procedural issues, it needed more capital. So the fed lent it $85 billion it could use to fulfill those procedural obligations and keep working. As punishment, it took over 80% of the company's equity, or stock.

A nasty situation

Ok, before we go on the last leg of this GINORMOUS post (nobody is reading this whole thing anyway, I know), let's look at just what the situation was like before the $700 billion bailout was announced.

1.) The housing market continues to deflate. As of early September, banks had totaled some $500 billion in writedowns, and that number is growing. Write-downs are only "recognized" reductions in value. The real losses will number in the trillions.

2.) As for wall street, the problem is getting worse. Every time the fed has bailed out a company, the markets rallied, only to fall again the next day as more bad news was reported, and it became clear that the market was not done collapsing in on itself. Part of it has to do with the fact that we're in a bear market -- again, a market where the mood is generally pessimistic, and people are much more willing to sell. Part of it has to do with uncertainty that the next company will get bailed out. Finally, people are actually DISCOURAGED from investing in the companies who need it the most because in every bailout, the fed has wiped out shareholders (they acquired a large portion of the company's equity).

3.) Money is going into safer, but less profitable investments. This is evidenced by the fact that the U.S. Treasury Bill, considered one of the safest possible investments, has lowered its yield to something like .16% from 1.6% earlier this month. The yield drops as more people invest in bills. Just look at what happens to the 1 month bill after 9/12: http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/debt-management/interest-rate/yield.shtml (note: it rose above 1% today, not sure why :\).

I told you earlier that consumer credit was tight because of the sub-prime market collapse. Now, the credit problem has spread to wall street. Interbank lending interest rates are at about 2% higher than normal. Depending on inflation, that's a 200%-1000% interest in the premium banks pay to borrow money from each other. Inter-bank lending serves to "lubricate" the financial system, just like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Interbank lending directly affects consumer lending. A bank could WANT to give you a loan for a car can't but it might not have enough capital, so it borrows some from another bank. But if that interbank loan is really expensive, your loan will also be more expensive. Over in London, it's up to 7% for overnight loans: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/09/30/libor-record.html

BAILOUT my ass

After the failure of AIG, the Fed realized that it couldn't go on giving these Ad Hoc bailouts. It had to once and for all fix the housing problem. When you want to fix anything, the best solution is to attack the root cause.

Essentially, the problem is one of liquidity, or liquid capital. Liquidity describes how easily an asset can be transferred into a different kind of asset, and at what cost. Cash is the most liquid asset possible: Anyone will accept cash for anything, except under excess inflation. A car, on the other hand, is less liquid. You have to go through a lot more trouble to trade a car for something else of equal value, and you will always sell for less than its real value. Before the housing crisis, mortgage backed securities retained some degree of liquidity. After the crisis, they became practically illiquid: Because of the risk associated with them and all the negative headlines, nobody would buy them at a reasonable cost. Essentially, these securities still have SOME worth, but because nobody will buy them for a reasonable price, banks may as well have a black hole where these securities are. It is because they lost so much money on these securities that is fueling the credit crisis.

To fix a liquidity problem, you have to create a market for the illiquid assets. You have to help these companies convert mortgage backed securities into capital they can use to help the economy get back on its feet. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson teamed up with Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke to write up a plan that would allocate $700 billion to create a market for these securities. Meaning, the government would offer to buy up these securities: they would take them off the hands of investment banks and replace them with cash. Then, the government would either hold on to these securities until they mature (when they "put out" in other words) or sell them to someone else. A similar system was set up in the 80's during the Savings and Loan crisis, but not at this scale.

How this will fix the problem should be obvious. By injecting liquidity into the system, banks will be again willing to lend, and credit will be looser. It will become easier to buy a home, but not so easy the bubble will begin to inflate again. Demand for housing goes up, and prices stabilize. The losses will still be there, but at least the problem won't get any worse.

There's some kinda irrelevant and esoteric information about how the fed will determine prices for these securities. If you're really interested, it's in spoilers. But it wasn't fitting into the narrative as a whole so I cut it...
+ Show Spoiler +

You may have heard the term "reverse auction" thrown about. Basically, that's the method the fed plans to use to determine how much they want to buy up these securities for. Why can't they just pay the market "equilibrium" price, you say? Because there IS no market. Moreover, each mortgage backed security is different from the next: it's impossible to tell exactly how much is worth. It's like trying to buy off a whole bunch of different paintings. Each one is different. You can only guess how much it's "worth". Like art, the fed plans to determine the price through auction, except that because there's only one buyer, it works in reverse: First the fed will announce the kind of security it plans to buy, then the sellers will bid for the lowest price. The fed will also be hiring help people who can "appraise" the value of each security. This doesn't play a significant role in the story... but I figured it's worth discussing and has to do with the arguments for or against why a bailout is good or bad.


So there's a few things about the bailout that are under debate... but it's hard to talking about that without inserting:

My Goddamn Opinion

At this point, there's not much more to tell you that you don't already know. So I reserve my right to soapbox for a few minutes.

1.) The Bailout is not as expensive as $700 billion.

As I said earlier, while most of these securities are losing money as a whole, they still retain SOME value. Not everyone is going to default on their loans. The fed can either hold these mortgages until they mature or sell them off, if the market has recovered. They could end up earning back between $500 billion to nearly breaking even.

2.) It's not a bailout.

The worst thing Bernanke did in selling the bailout was to call it a bailout. Nobody is coming in and arbitrarily injecting capital into companies that don't deserve it. They are doing it in exchange for these securities. What we're doing is trading much needed liquidity into companies that don't have it.

3.) Don't handicap the bailout.

All this talk about limiting executive pay, creating incentives to negotiate, etc. etc. are valuable policies (to an extent). Geez Congress, maybe you should've instituted them BEFORE THE FUCKING CRISIS YOU TARDS. The economic crisis is not happening soon, it is not happening next year, it is happening NOW and you shitholes need to something about it and not, as my esteemed congressman Pete Stark said this morning, "hold a month of hearings". No I'm not kidding, the fucktard actually said that. Then he blamed tax policies for the crisis. Palin is more fucking informed.

Second, it's important to keep in mind that the bailout is voluntary. If companies don't want to sell their mortgage backed securities because the government requires that they have to give up equity or their severance packages, then they won't sell them, handicapping the bailout.

4.) Not bailing out is much worse.

OK, here is the important part. The argument by free-market fundamentalists is two fold. First, they say that the market is undergoing a "correction". Second, they tell you that bailouts create a moral hazard.

First, it's true that the housing market is undergoing a correction. However, you have to keep in mind that most homes are bought through mortgages. A lot of banks are unwilling to lend even to qualified buyers, so the price of housing might even be BENEATH the ideal equilibrium price. So long as credit remains tight, housing prices will continue to fall, banks will keep bleeding money, and the economy goes down a vicious spiral into stagnation and recession.

Second, this is an inappropriate use of the concept. Bankers have already suffered plenty from the housing crisis. They know better than to let this happen again. Moreover, the costs of NOT bailing out are much higher than the cost of creating this minimal moral hazard.

Conclusion: Why you care and don't even know it

I'm really running out of steam... I don't feel like I could do a good job if I wrote this right now. I'll save the conclusion for another day, if I get around to it. But the gist is there. As more questions come up I'll try to fill them in here i guess.

Inside joke for debaters
I hope the Bailout/Nuke War disad I ran all weekend were as flaky as judges kept telling me they were.


Fair question before committing to reading this rediculously large text: what's your background? (i'm scrolling and see generous use caps locks and "fucking retards" etc .... rant = no thx)


I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday

-_-;; nvm

He decided on page 6 he wasn't qualified to discuss economics:
Show nested quote +

I'm going to leave the economics to econ majors and sit my poli-sci major ass on the discussion of the fed.

But apparently he left up the huge long OP that has a lot to do with economics

PLEASE CORRECT MY ERRORS USING YOUR SUPERIOR REASONING AND KNOWLEDGE. Many other posters have done it. I've updated my text a couple of times already. So if you know more than I do, inform me. If not, quit bitching. I don't see you taking 4 hours on this writeup.

Moreover, I've responded to all your arguments in my last big block of a post.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
October 02 2008 02:45 GMT
#142
Why are political science majors so angry? Is it the lackluster job opportunities of your field? What?
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
October 02 2008 02:54 GMT
#143
lol gold standard, you gotta be shitting me
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
October 02 2008 02:54 GMT
#144
I don't like being told I'm not qualified to write about this when you never describe what exactly I'm getting wrong.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
Number41
Profile Joined August 2008
United States130 Posts
October 02 2008 02:55 GMT
#145
On October 02 2008 11:45 HeadBangaa wrote:
Why are political science majors so angry? Is it the lackluster job opportunities of your field? What?

He put a lot of time and thought into his posts, and people like you come in just to flame. Vey classy.

You won't even read his post because you don't know his credentials. Why are you reading forums if that is your standard?

What are your credentials as a troublemaker? Have you been to prison? Are you a comedian? Why should we read your posts?
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
October 02 2008 02:56 GMT
#146
On October 02 2008 11:54 mahnini wrote:
lol gold standard, you gotta be shitting me

What's wrong with the gold standard?
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
October 02 2008 02:59 GMT
#147
A lot of people have a lot of things to say about a lot of different things. Just trying to prioritize my reading, pal.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
October 02 2008 03:00 GMT
#148
The amount of stuff goes up and the amount of gold does not.
But why?
economist_
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Vietnam719 Posts
October 02 2008 03:02 GMT
#149
On October 02 2008 02:34 Wurzelbrumpft wrote:
just a question is it foreseeable or calculatable when the stocks are at their lowest point?


It is calculatable but what they could do is just forecasting, and it is prone to assumption. Whatever the method you use, the best result that it can give you is one figure with marginal errors on it depending on how you assume the uncertainty in the future
great thread btw, I have learnt alot about this financial crisis. Actually, I dont know much about American financial sector and finance is also not my major.
I read some articles that there are around 200 economists that are opposing the bailout pla,. I have read some of the letters but seeing how they are so aggressive about letting the market adjust itself is quite weird to me. First great depression brought about the Keyne theory which addressed the role of government and now it is yet but very potential for another one, and the government is just to play its role imo
Economics forecast assumes everything, except responsibilities
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
October 02 2008 03:16 GMT
#150
On October 02 2008 12:00 EmeraldSparks wrote:
The amount of stuff goes up and the amount of gold does not.

I see having a stable currency as a good thing.
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
Tianx
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1196 Posts
October 02 2008 03:20 GMT
#151
Just chiming in to thank ahrara_ for a well-written and informative post. Your hard work is much appreciated, especially for someone who doesn't do this sort of thing for a living. Thank you for clarifying a difficult topic in an extremely lucid manner, and don't let the haters get you down.
Intrigue: "as i've said to many others your troubles in life may be directly correlated to your dirty protoss icon"
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
October 02 2008 03:20 GMT
#152
On October 02 2008 11:55 Number41 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2008 11:45 HeadBangaa wrote:
Why are political science majors so angry? Is it the lackluster job opportunities of your field? What?

He put a lot of time and thought into his posts, and people like you come in just to flame. Vey classy.

You won't even read his post because you don't know his credentials. Why are you reading forums if that is your standard?

What are your credentials as a troublemaker? Have you been to prison? Are you a comedian? Why should we read your posts?

Go read my entire post history.

WHAT, WHY NOT? Because you don't have my credentials?

[image loading]
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
Tianx
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States1196 Posts
October 02 2008 03:22 GMT
#153
On October 02 2008 12:16 CaptainMurphy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2008 12:00 EmeraldSparks wrote:
The amount of stuff goes up and the amount of gold does not.

I see having a stable currency as a good thing.


If the money you have increases value without you investing it anywhere, the economy stagnates. That isn't stability but deflation, which is a bad thing. See: The Great Depression.
Intrigue: "as i've said to many others your troubles in life may be directly correlated to your dirty protoss icon"
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 03:26:57
October 02 2008 03:22 GMT
#154
I don't have time to go into detail but I mentioned the main problem with the gold standard before. You have no control over the money supply. (note that this does NOT keep the money supply from changing with the amount of gold being mined. what it does is make those changes arbitrary and dependent on if the gold industry can find more gold to mine). Secondly, the gold standard encourages deflation, which discourages investment.

The only advantage of the gold standard is that it protects you from irresponsible inflationary policies. Fortunately, the fed in its decades of existence has never decided to arbitrarily print large quantities of money and probably never will.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 03:52:40
October 02 2008 03:44 GMT
#155
edit: I read the OP, here are some comments. Last half of post contains the important comments on previous discussion.


On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
WARNING
IF YOU MAKE A STUPID POST I WILL KILL YOU

was this here before?


Banks and less reputable financial organizations began lending to the "sub-prime" market. These were people whose credit history meant they had a good chance of defaulting on their loan. One reason banks made these loans was because they figured that housing prices would keep rising forever. If these guys couldn't pay back their loan, we'll just repossess the house and sell it at a profit to someone who can!!!1111 (LOL HOW WRONG THEY WERE).

So long as investors kept buying mortgage backed securities, banks continued to make subprime loans. Essentially, they were speculating: gambling that because housing prices would keep rising, they would eventually make a killing. Unfortunately, speculation has the added effect of artificially inflating demand, raising prices. Thus the financial system created a self-fulfilling prophecy: By betting on increased housing prices, they made housing prices increase, creating the housing bubble.

I'm not going to argue that this is true, but it is not the reason why they began lending to subprime borrowers. The root cause of it all was that interest rates (from the fed) were too low for too long, causing an overabundance of easy money. All of that money had to go somewhere, so it was pumped into the housing market (because it was one of the last areas that could sustain increased debt.....in addition to the reasons ahara listed). You have this huge pile of money and you have to find people to borrow it.

I'm very surprised that no one brought this up in this thread so far besides jgad (and no one addressed his comment on this).

The problem is that when the economy began to improve, bernake didn't raise interest rates. Not to mention greenspan, who is much more responsible.


Essentially, the problem is one of liquidity, or liquid capital. ...............

To fix a liquidity problem, you have to create a market for the illiquid assets. ......................

How this will fix the problem should be obvious. By injecting liquidity into the system, banks will be again willing to lend, and credit will be looser. ..............

Again, correct but not necessarily the whole story. The liquidity problem is a symptom which causes many other real problems. The other more fundamental factor is confidence. If investors lose confidence, the fed could literally put trillions of dollars of liquidity in the market and things would still come crashing down (I think we are actually short like $5 trillion, so the $700 billion is not a "true" once-and-for-all fix). The correct action may actually injecting massive amounts of money, but one must look at the cause of the fundamental loss of confidence. If investors think that every bank is cooking its books and about to fail, and worse, have NO idea which bank will fail, they'll just pull their money out all together.

This could be fixed partly by having more transparency of balance sheets. True, a number of banks would fail immediately because investors would know their true risk, but people would also be more likely to invest in the system. Bailouts could be given as necessary for some failures, but just a blanket bailout doesn't address the fundamental loss of confidence (because again, that $700 billion can't cover everything).


1.) The Bailout is not as expensive as $700 billion.

As I said earlier, while most of these securities are losing money as a whole, they still retain SOME value. Not everyone is going to default on their loans. The fed can either hold these mortgages until they mature or sell them off, if the market has recovered. They could end up earning back between $500 billion to nearly breaking even.

You're right, its not $700 billion. Its a hell of a lot more. The $700 billion is only the amount on the government's balance sheet. Doesn't count if its sold at a loss! For example, the government could buy $500 trillion at .5 on the dollar from company A, and sell it later that day at .1 on the dollar to company B, and have a balance sheet of zero again. The only limit is "cap" on national debt (which is always increased of course).


3.) Don't handicap the bailout.

All this talk about limiting executive pay, creating incentives to negotiate, etc. etc. are valuable policies (to an extent). Geez Congress, maybe you should've instituted them BEFORE THE FUCKING CRISIS YOU TARDS. The economic crisis is not happening soon, it is not happening next year, it is happening NOW and you shitholes need to something about it and not, as my esteemed congressman Pete Stark said this morning, "hold a month of hearings". No I'm not kidding, the fucktard actually said that. Then he blamed tax policies for the crisis. Palin is more fucking informed.

Second, it's important to keep in mind that the bailout is voluntary. If companies don't want to sell their mortgage backed securities because the government requires that they have to give up equity or their severance packages, then they won't sell them, handicapping the bailout.

4.) Not bailing out is much worse.

If it shouldn't be handicapped, why did paulson say that he would recommend a veto if the bill excluded bad foreign debt transferred to a US bank after september 20? If its so urgent, why does he threaten to veto over that? Weren't we supposed to crash a week ago? That didn't happen.

Keep in mind exactly what this is. This is a huge power grab. One man, with the stroke of his pen, controls hundreds of billions of dollars. He can pick the winners and losers. He is a GOD. He probably has more power than the president. This is essentially the financial patriot act, where one man controls an infinite amount of money. No hearings, no questioning, no appeals, no limit.

Now on to the other stuff.

======================================================================

On October 02 2008 06:33 ahrara_ wrote:
well I think some of the free-market fundamentalists like jgad have been putting up a really good fight and it bothers the shit out of me I don't know how to really defend the fed. but it bothers me when some dick jumps in screaming about how debt = money and that it's all the fed's fault without really udnerstanding or being able to explain why.

I didn't jump in screaming anything, I just posted my blog link.

On October 01 2008 16:59 ahrara_ wrote:
im not angry

the money creation stuff are not basic examples of anythign except an untrue idea. what fight is saying is that banks arbitrarily create money, essentially printing money or counterfeiting. this is true in fucking zimbabwe where inflation is something like 10 million % (no exaggeration) but not in the u.s. money supply goes up when banks are more willing to lend, but they will only do so until they meet their capital reserve or the banks that they are borrowing from meet their capital reserve. so money is not just randomly generated.

"money = debt" is a meaningless factually incorrect and stupid term

Have we agreed that banks create money yet? This is simply a fact. They can't do it "out of control" because that example I gave you before was a geometric sum, with a finite limit. More simply, it is known as the money multiplier. Banks multiply the money supply through the fractional reserve system....by, in my example, 10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Money_multiplier

So, what is all that multiplied money? its someone else's debt because it was created through loans. If everyone paid off their loans, all that money multiplying stuff would go away, so 90% of our money would disappear in that example.

Lets look at this for a second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#Fractional-reserve_banking

#1 of the wikipedia section is currency.

#2 is money created through loans. That money is someone else's debt, thats how it came into existence, and thats how it must increase. If more and more people aren't continually found to accept that new debt, the money supply can't increase anymore. Thats why mortgages bubbled, because housing was a reservoir of potential new debt.

If you look at the picture below, you will see the relative amounts of this money plotted. Everything except the green represents debt that someone somewhere owes to someone else.

[image loading]


Can americans keep absorbing exponentially increasing amounts of debt (which are required because interest is collected on that nonexistent money)? I don't think so. This is a fundamental problem, not something a bailout will solve permanently.
Do you really want chat rooms?
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 03:57:25
October 02 2008 03:56 GMT
#156
I take back what I said earlier. I think I was mostly irked because I was sleep deprived and because you posted that ghastly movie.

That was a good post, though a lot of it has been covered in one form or another previously.

I'll respond later... if I spend any more time on this thread today I'll get nothign done.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 04:02:10
October 02 2008 03:57 GMT
#157
If the money you have increases value without you investing it anywhere, the economy stagnates.

How can the economy be stagnating if the increase in purchasing power is a result of an increase in real assets? Doesn't that contradict the definition of stagnation?

That isn't stability but deflation, which is a bad thing.
See: The Great Depression.

The causes of the great depression is still a debated topic, I'd be interested to see your reasoning as to why you think it was caused by the gold standard. Myself I subscribe more to the Austrian explanation. The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. Through the 1920s the Fed engaged in expansive monetary policy to help out Britain which was suffering from high unemployment. This led to an unsustainable credit-driven boom, as loose monetary policy tends to do, which led to the inevitable bust. Also, increase in money supply due to fractional reserve banking is what made bank runs possible.
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 06:32:00
October 02 2008 04:01 GMT
#158
fight_or_flight,

Great post.
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 07:42:16
October 02 2008 07:16 GMT
#159
On October 02 2008 12:44 fight_or_flight wrote:
edit: I read the OP, here are some comments. Last half of post contains the important comments on previous discussion.


Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
WARNING
IF YOU MAKE A STUPID POST I WILL KILL YOU

was this here before?

Show nested quote +

Banks and less reputable financial organizations began lending to the "sub-prime" market. These were people whose credit history meant they had a good chance of defaulting on their loan. One reason banks made these loans was because they figured that housing prices would keep rising forever. If these guys couldn't pay back their loan, we'll just repossess the house and sell it at a profit to someone who can!!!1111 (LOL HOW WRONG THEY WERE).

So long as investors kept buying mortgage backed securities, banks continued to make subprime loans. Essentially, they were speculating: gambling that because housing prices would keep rising, they would eventually make a killing. Unfortunately, speculation has the added effect of artificially inflating demand, raising prices. Thus the financial system created a self-fulfilling prophecy: By betting on increased housing prices, they made housing prices increase, creating the housing bubble.

I'm not going to argue that this is true, but it is not the reason why they began lending to subprime borrowers. The root cause of it all was that interest rates (from the fed) were too low for too long, causing an overabundance of easy money. All of that money had to go somewhere, so it was pumped into the housing market (because it was one of the last areas that could sustain increased debt.....in addition to the reasons ahara listed). You have this huge pile of money and you have to find people to borrow it.

I'm very surprised that no one brought this up in this thread so far besides jgad (and no one addressed his comment on this).

The problem is that when the economy began to improve, bernake didn't raise interest rates. Not to mention greenspan, who is much more responsible.

Show nested quote +

Essentially, the problem is one of liquidity, or liquid capital. ...............

To fix a liquidity problem, you have to create a market for the illiquid assets. ......................

How this will fix the problem should be obvious. By injecting liquidity into the system, banks will be again willing to lend, and credit will be looser. ..............

Again, correct but not necessarily the whole story. The liquidity problem is a symptom which causes many other real problems. The other more fundamental factor is confidence. If investors lose confidence, the fed could literally put trillions of dollars of liquidity in the market and things would still come crashing down (I think we are actually short like $5 trillion, so the $700 billion is not a "true" once-and-for-all fix). The correct action may actually injecting massive amounts of money, but one must look at the cause of the fundamental loss of confidence. If investors think that every bank is cooking its books and about to fail, and worse, have NO idea which bank will fail, they'll just pull their money out all together.

This could be fixed partly by having more transparency of balance sheets. True, a number of banks would fail immediately because investors would know their true risk, but people would also be more likely to invest in the system. Bailouts could be given as necessary for some failures, but just a blanket bailout doesn't address the fundamental loss of confidence (because again, that $700 billion can't cover everything).

Show nested quote +

1.) The Bailout is not as expensive as $700 billion.

As I said earlier, while most of these securities are losing money as a whole, they still retain SOME value. Not everyone is going to default on their loans. The fed can either hold these mortgages until they mature or sell them off, if the market has recovered. They could end up earning back between $500 billion to nearly breaking even.

You're right, its not $700 billion. Its a hell of a lot more. The $700 billion is only the amount on the government's balance sheet. Doesn't count if its sold at a loss! For example, the government could buy $500 trillion at .5 on the dollar from company A, and sell it later that day at .1 on the dollar to company B, and have a balance sheet of zero again. The only limit is "cap" on national debt (which is always increased of course).

Show nested quote +

3.) Don't handicap the bailout.

All this talk about limiting executive pay, creating incentives to negotiate, etc. etc. are valuable policies (to an extent). Geez Congress, maybe you should've instituted them BEFORE THE FUCKING CRISIS YOU TARDS. The economic crisis is not happening soon, it is not happening next year, it is happening NOW and you shitholes need to something about it and not, as my esteemed congressman Pete Stark said this morning, "hold a month of hearings". No I'm not kidding, the fucktard actually said that. Then he blamed tax policies for the crisis. Palin is more fucking informed.

Second, it's important to keep in mind that the bailout is voluntary. If companies don't want to sell their mortgage backed securities because the government requires that they have to give up equity or their severance packages, then they won't sell them, handicapping the bailout.

4.) Not bailing out is much worse.

If it shouldn't be handicapped, why did paulson say that he would recommend a veto if the bill excluded bad foreign debt transferred to a US bank after september 20? If its so urgent, why does he threaten to veto over that? Weren't we supposed to crash a week ago? That didn't happen.

Keep in mind exactly what this is. This is a huge power grab. One man, with the stroke of his pen, controls hundreds of billions of dollars. He can pick the winners and losers. He is a GOD. He probably has more power than the president. This is essentially the financial patriot act, where one man controls an infinite amount of money. No hearings, no questioning, no appeals, no limit.

Now on to the other stuff.

======================================================================

Show nested quote +
On October 02 2008 06:33 ahrara_ wrote:
well I think some of the free-market fundamentalists like jgad have been putting up a really good fight and it bothers the shit out of me I don't know how to really defend the fed. but it bothers me when some dick jumps in screaming about how debt = money and that it's all the fed's fault without really udnerstanding or being able to explain why.

I didn't jump in screaming anything, I just posted my blog link.

Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 16:59 ahrara_ wrote:
im not angry

the money creation stuff are not basic examples of anythign except an untrue idea. what fight is saying is that banks arbitrarily create money, essentially printing money or counterfeiting. this is true in fucking zimbabwe where inflation is something like 10 million % (no exaggeration) but not in the u.s. money supply goes up when banks are more willing to lend, but they will only do so until they meet their capital reserve or the banks that they are borrowing from meet their capital reserve. so money is not just randomly generated.

"money = debt" is a meaningless factually incorrect and stupid term

Have we agreed that banks create money yet? This is simply a fact. They can't do it "out of control" because that example I gave you before was a geometric sum, with a finite limit. More simply, it is known as the money multiplier. Banks multiply the money supply through the fractional reserve system....by, in my example, 10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Money_multiplier

So, what is all that multiplied money? its someone else's debt because it was created through loans. If everyone paid off their loans, all that money multiplying stuff would go away, so 90% of our money would disappear in that example.

Lets look at this for a second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply#Fractional-reserve_banking

#1 of the wikipedia section is currency.

#2 is money created through loans. That money is someone else's debt, thats how it came into existence, and thats how it must increase. If more and more people aren't continually found to accept that new debt, the money supply can't increase anymore. Thats why mortgages bubbled, because housing was a reservoir of potential new debt.

If you look at the picture below, you will see the relative amounts of this money plotted. Everything except the green represents debt that someone somewhere owes to someone else.

[image loading]


Can americans keep absorbing exponentially increasing amounts of debt (which are required because interest is collected on that nonexistent money)? I don't think so. This is a fundamental problem, not something a bailout will solve permanently.

Not my full response, but AFAI can tell the ratio of currency to total money supply has been static, according to your own diagrams. The actual change in money supply is not nearly as drastic as the diagram suggests when you adjust for inflation. Since this inflation hasn't been very rapid, in the long run it's had little effect on real values. Also, the expansionary effect of the spending multiplier is mitigated by two things:

1.) In the U.S., the multiplier is not actually the ideal sum, but something like 2x or 3x because people hold on to a large part of their loans as cash and

2.) Withdrawals from deposits have an equal and opposite effect on money supply.

Therefore... what's the big deal then? Further, if you are going to criticize a system, you must provide an alternative. What is your alternative to fractional reserve banking, and how is it better than the present system? The fractional reserve system works because not everyone will be using their deposited cash at the same time, except in the case of a run which is prevented by the FDIC's deposit insurance. The same resources can be put to better use. What is bad about this?

Inflation is only a problem in the short run. In the long run, prices and wages adjust accordingly.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
Vegetarian
Profile Joined October 2008
119 Posts
October 02 2008 07:54 GMT
#160
The current system is bad because the Federal Reserve has the sole power to set interest rates. History has shown the Federal Reserve has not done a very good job at setting them as they constantly set them to low which encourages malinvestments in the market which manifest themselves in asset bubbles which have constantly become larger.

Basically all the Federal Reserve does is create the boom and bust business cycle which is not a by product of capitalism or free markets, but one of government interference in the market. In a free market system something as important as the value of a currency should not be set by the government. The obvious alternative of the system is the one that we had before the Federal Reserve was instituted. A gold standard.
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