• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:57
CEST 04:57
KST 11:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202541Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up5LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced55
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Would you prefer the game to be balanced around top-tier pro level or average pro level? Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers? [G] Progamer Settings How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? Help, I can't log into staredit.net BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread 9/11 Anniversary Possible Al Qaeda Attack on 9/11
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 529 users

The Goddamn Economy: A Civilized Version - Page 7

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 43 Next All
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
October 01 2008 19:57 GMT
#121
On October 02 2008 04:02 Mooga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
BAILOUT my ass

After the failure of AIG, the Fed realized that it couldn't go on giving these Ad Hoc bailouts. It had to once and for all fix the housing problem. When you want to fix anything, the best solution is to attack the root cause.


aharara, are you suggesting that we, the citizens of the United States, must attack the Fed?!?!

I, for one, think that this is a ridiculous thing to suggest and the ignorance of your statement appalls me. While it is true that the Fed is a main character in the growing debt of the United States, the upheaval of the Fed would not succeed in erasing said debts. Furthermore, a violent act of aggression that leads to an overthrow is more likely to cause problems than resolve them--not to mention the minuscule chance that an uprising against the current Fed would succeed. In short, advocating terrorism is not very appropriate in this context.

fuck off and die of syphillis
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
October 01 2008 20:08 GMT
#122
ahahaha it's sad to see people with so much time on their hands, so eager to post and jump in the conversation, but with an utter lack of reading comprehension and without any will to understand the basic framing of the debate.

returns upon momentous occasions.
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
October 01 2008 21:33 GMT
#123
well I think some of the free-market fundamentalists like jgad have been putting up a really good fight and it bothers the shit out of me I don't know how to really defend the fed. but it bothers me when some dick jumps in screaming about how debt = money and that it's all the fed's fault without really udnerstanding or being able to explain why.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
October 01 2008 22:28 GMT
#124
Oh yeah? Then you would be in favor of partially disowning a few thousand wealthy people to save a few thousand starving kids in the Third World I suppose?

No, the lives of non-Americans are insignificant compared to the potential loss of American money.

I am not overreacting, this is my opinion. My main reason for that is that however brutal the downfall, the economy will recover sooner or later. Any rights or freedom you give up are gone forever.

Also, when people die, they're dead forever.
But why?
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
October 01 2008 22:50 GMT
#125
Bubbles happen in capitalist economies. I don't care if you want to subscribe to the political view, the austrian view, or any other view of why, but they happen, and they're going to continue happening.

However, without government involvement they generally won't get nearly as bad. The worst bubbles IMO happen when bad monetary policies, natural cycles (depending on which view you ascribe to) and forced government over-allocation of resources combine into the perfect storm.

I have to agree with those arguing the side of long term rights. I do think that in the short-term, the bailout has a significant chance of doing a lot of good (if it's run right). Though I do think that the idea of a "fair price" is retarded, who gets the set the fair price? But in the long term, I have a lot of fears. Not only will this create and reinforce a massive moral hazard that has been building for decades, the fact that government likes to socialize losses and privatize gains, forcing rational firms to take massive risks, but I mostly fear a possible government nationalization of the entire finance and banking industry (a worst-case scenario, but certainly not impossible), something which would have dire implications for the countries economic future.

In short, are we setting ourselves up for massive crises just like this or even worse in the future if we pass this bill?
Meta
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States6225 Posts
October 01 2008 23:04 GMT
#126
Well I actually read the entire OP (over the course of two days) and have nothing to say but thank you, ahrara, for educating me on this situation, which yesterday I knew nothing about.
good vibes only
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-01 23:43:05
October 01 2008 23:31 GMT
#127
Ok, have some time to kill before class so let's respond to some of the arguments presented:

I see how you could argue that poor monetary policy by the fed exacerbated the housing bubble. But nobody here has really described the alternative. Without the fed and its central lending/capital reserve controls, who would control money supply? It would be subject to the whims of the market, and that would inevitably lead to even worse inflation. Are you arguing that we return to the gold standard? In that case, what do you do when credit is tight but you can't expand supply? The fed enacts expansionary policy during busts, and contractionary policy during booms. This has been its policy so far since the crisis. Why is this bad policy?

As for moral hazard, if you are going to apply the concept, you really have to get into the nitty gritty. Systems as a whole are not subject to moral hazard, only individuals, leadership specifically. For your moral hazard argument to work, the bailout would have to create a guarantee that if a company screwed up, they would be bailed out by the government. First, imperfect information keeps executives from knowing if the fed will enact future bailouts. Stearns was bailed out, Lehman wasn't. Second, these companies have suffered aplenty because of the crisis. Those that have bailed out have had their shareholders wiped out, and some are slowly being phased out of the market. Executives were replaced. Even with the bailout, investment banks will still have lost billions.

You have to admit that any argument about moral hazard at this point is only speculation. There's no way of predicting just what psychological effect this will have on the financial system. To make such a prediction, you'd have to analyze the leadership of these companies, and that's something neither of us know enough about. In the long run though, I feel that the damage from NOT bailing out would be far worse than the moral hazard we can potentially create. If we deny ourselves any course of action that had the potential of creating moral hazard, that eliminates 90% of government policies. It's a risk we take in making ANY government action.

edit:

1.) I forget who, but someone said a while ago that the housing market will bring itself to the ideal equilibrium. They neglect to mention that this will only happen in the long run. So until that happens, without a bailout, homes will continue foreclosing and credit will remain tight. Without credit, businesses go bankrupt, jobs are lost, and real wages drop. A bailout will fix the problem sooner, and IIRC all he said was that this doesn't fix the underlying problem, to which I respond no shit the underlying problem is that capitalism has booms and busts and that will always happen until the end of time. The fed is essentially enacting a targeted expansionary monetary policy that will revive the credit market and bring us back to normal function. Will there be a bust again in the future? You betya, within your lifetime several times even. Is this going to happen whether or not we do the bailout? Yes. NON-UNIQUE.

2.) The more I think about it, the more I realize how ridiculous it is to blame the fed solely for booms and busts. In any capitalist economy, people will make bad investments. Loose monetary policy will exacerbate the problem, but it is not the sole cause. The primary cause of bubbles is IMPERFECT INFORMATION. It is difficult, if not impossible, to figure out how much growth in an industry is fueled by speculation. It is human nature to respond to trends: If people see housing prices rise, they will naturally invest more in real estate. What the fed DOES help with is to accelerate the recovery from such busts by increasing the money supply.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3700 Posts
October 01 2008 23:42 GMT
#128
http://mises.org/story/3131 - That's a fairly good article you might like to read, ahrara. You probably won't agree with it much, but it does articulate the position against the Fed and against the bailout quite well.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
October 01 2008 23:44 GMT
#129
All I can say is to read Man, Economy, and State. It's 1400 pages long and I can continue debating for about that long as we reconstruct the text to suit the topics you bring up. To be honest, I find it difficult to say what is best, but for anyone with a traditional economics background, I would highly recommend Rothbard's book - it's a totally different perspective. I was a staunch socialist for years until I ran into Austrian economics. It changed the way I looked at a lot of things.
콩까지마
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
October 01 2008 23:47 GMT
#130
Here's a good podcast - The Trouble With Fractional Reserve Banking

New this week, actually, so it's on current events.
콩까지마
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
October 01 2008 23:52 GMT
#131
The new bailout price tag is up to 850 billion dollars. This one loads additional tax cuts and credits on top. I'm looking forward to this failing so the Senate can go back to the drawing board and come up with a 1 trillion dollar plan.
日本語が分かりますか
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
October 02 2008 00:24 GMT
#132
I should be sleeping in 5 minutes, so some short comments on ahara's last post:

1) The dumping of corporate and investor losses who took the risks of enterprise on people who had no say in the matter is not only a potential future moral hazard, it is already a moral hazard, in other words, an immoral act.

2) Consider why liquidity dries up in an economy, what kind of information this sends the market, and how the Federal reserve's actions manipulates this information.
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 01:23:31
October 02 2008 00:57 GMT
#133
On October 02 2008 08:31 ahrara_ wrote:
Ok, have some time to kill before class so let's respond to some of the arguments presented:

I see how you could argue that poor monetary policy by the fed exacerbated the housing bubble. But nobody here has really described the alternative. Without the fed and its central lending/capital reserve controls, who would control money supply? It would be subject to the whims of the market, and that would inevitably lead to even worse inflation. Are you arguing that we return to the gold standard? In that case, what do you do when credit is tight but you can't expand supply? The fed enacts expansionary policy during busts, and contractionary policy during booms. This has been its policy so far since the crisis. Why is this bad policy?

Oh, I don't think that there's a better alternative to the fed, I'm just saying that the fed certainly could've been run better. The problem is that the fed should follow those rules, but they didn't. During the early 2000s, after the dot-com bust, they kept interest rates too high for too long, making this bubble much worse than it might've been. They didn't bother reducing interest rates enough as the economy went into overdrive, and that combined with various other external incentives to invest in housing made this worse than it ever would've been.
EDIT: The Austrian perspective: http://mises.org/story/3130

As for moral hazard, if you are going to apply the concept, you really have to get into the nitty gritty. Systems as a whole are not subject to moral hazard, only individuals, leadership specifically. For your moral hazard argument to work, the bailout would have to create a guarantee that if a company screwed up, they would be bailed out by the government. First, imperfect information keeps executives from knowing if the fed will enact future bailouts. Stearns was bailed out, Lehman wasn't. Second, these companies have suffered aplenty because of the crisis. Those that have bailed out have had their shareholders wiped out, and some are slowly being phased out of the market. Executives were replaced. Even with the bailout, investment banks will still have lost billions.

Any bailout doesn't have to create a guarantee of risks being socialized, just increasing the probability is enough to distort risk-management. Even if there's only a 50% or 25% chance of the government taking on all or most , or even just a significant amount, of the costs, people are going to take that into consideration.

And more important than the shareholders getting wiped out is that the creditors are getting all/most of their money back. The moral hazard doesn't just apply tot he companies that failed, it applies to the people that lent those companies money. If the creditors think that there's a 25% the government will guarantee their money, they're going to be willing to take higher risks.

You have to admit that any argument about moral hazard at this point is only speculation. There's no way of predicting just what psychological effect this will have on the financial system. To make such a prediction, you'd have to analyze the leadership of these companies, and that's something neither of us know enough about. In the long run though, I feel that the damage from NOT bailing out would be far worse than the moral hazard we can potentially create. If we deny ourselves any course of action that had the potential of creating moral hazard, that eliminates 90% of government policies. It's a risk we take in making ANY government action.

It may be speculation, but it's speculation based on logical reasoning from some fairly basic and obvious axioms of human behavior. Excuse me if I want to be Austrian for a second. I think the fallacy you're making is that it's not just about the leadership of companies, it's about the creditors than enable that leadership to do things. If the creditors/investors see that the company is doing risky things but making a lot of money, they won't care as much if they know that they're first in line for a government payout when the company goes under.

1.) I forget who, but someone said a while ago that the housing market will bring itself to the ideal equilibrium. They neglect to mention that this will only happen in the long run. So until that happens, without a bailout, homes will continue foreclosing and credit will remain tight. Without credit, businesses go bankrupt, jobs are lost, and real wages drop. A bailout will fix the problem sooner, and IIRC all he said was that this doesn't fix the underlying problem, to which I respond no shit the underlying problem is that capitalism has booms and busts and that will always happen until the end of time. The fed is essentially enacting a targeted expansionary monetary policy that will revive the credit market and bring us back to normal function. Will there be a bust again in the future? You betya, within your lifetime several times even. Is this going to happen whether or not we do the bailout? Yes. NON-UNIQUE.

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/01/interbank-lending-ted-oped-cx_ar_1001reynolds.html
Lending to consumers and businesses have stayed about even through April and most of September (up to when data is available). Loans on real estate and to banks have fallen slightly, but real estate loans are still significantly higher than a year ago. Through Sep 17th, loans have not dried up, regional banks have just been taking over from the big national banks. The only loans that have dried up significantly are bank to bank loans.

2.) The more I think about it, the more I realize how ridiculous it is to blame the fed solely for booms and busts. In any capitalist economy, people will make bad investments. Loose monetary policy will exacerbate the problem, but it is not the sole cause. The primary cause of bubbles is IMPERFECT INFORMATION. It is difficult, if not impossible, to figure out how much growth in an industry is fueled by speculation. It is human nature to respond to trends: If people see housing prices rise, they will naturally invest more in real estate. What the fed DOES help with is to accelerate the recovery from such busts by increasing the money supply.

The fed also helps makes them much worse by keeping the money supply too high. The fact that housing was overpriced has been no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention in the last 2-3 years, and probably even longer to that to many. I do believe that bubbles are natural due to human nature and outside events, but the fed can do a lot to smooth them out with the right decisions or they can do a lot to exacerbate the effects with the wrong ones.

If you think that increasing the money supply increases the recovery, then the fact that increasing the money supply when no recovery is needed creates too much investment is a pretty logical step (and the right one).


I just wanted to bring up another cause that I've been thinking about that I haven't heard much on. Not a cause for the creation of the bubble, but just another one making it worse. That would be the collapse of the dot-com bubble in 2000-2001. Located during the rise of the housing bubble, people were desperately pulling assets out of dot-coms and must have been looking for someplace to put it that would earn decent returns at (perceived) low risk now that their previous standby was gone. And they fled to housing.
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
October 02 2008 01:35 GMT
#134
On October 02 2008 08:31 ahrara_ wrote:I see how you could argue that poor monetary policy by the fed exacerbated the housing bubble. But nobody here has really described the alternative. Without the fed and its central lending/capital reserve controls, who would control money supply? It would be subject to the whims of the market, and that would inevitably lead to even worse inflation.

Without the Fed, money would return to a commodity standard, most likely gold standard since gold seems to suit the purpose well and has been chosen through history. The money supply would be directly tied to the amount of gold, which is generally pretty stable. Why do you think this would lead to worse inflation?

In that case, what do you do when credit is tight but you can't expand supply?
The fed enacts expansionary policy during busts, and contractionary policy during booms. This has been its policy so far since the crisis. Why is this bad policy?

I'm not positive, but here is my understanding: If credit is tight, it's because real resources are spread thin. Expanding the money supply doesn't increase real resources or real credit. What it means is that resources will be diverted from where they're needed most, to people who are consuming more than they can afford, which creates the credit bubbles which inevitably lead to giant crashes.

2.) The more I think about it, the more I realize how ridiculous it is to blame the fed solely for booms and busts. In any capitalist economy, people will make bad investments.


People will make bad investments, but they need to be made to bear the costs of these bad investments. It is inevitable, but as you say:
Loose monetary policy will exacerbate the problem
.

What the fed DOES help with is to accelerate the recovery from such busts by increasing the money supply.

In what way does increasing the money supply accelerate the recovery (apologies if you answered this before, I didn't read the entire OP)? Increasing the money supply ala the bailout plan is simply a transfer of real money from the taxpayer to a few large financial institutions, leaving other sectors with less resources and less liquidity.

Here's a short article on why these bank failures won't fuck us over as much as people think they will:
http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/not-buying-it.php
Excerpt:
"So what's special about banks? According to what I keep reading, it's that without banks, nobody can borrow, and the economy grinds to a halt.

Well, let's think about that. Banks don't lend their own money; they lend other people's (their depositors' and their stockholders'). Just because the banks disappear doesn't mean the lenders will. Borrowers will still want to borrow and lenders will still want to lend. The only question is whether they'll be able to find each other."
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
HeavenS
Profile Joined August 2004
Colombia2259 Posts
October 02 2008 01:59 GMT
#135
amazing post ahrara_ ! read the whole thing and learned alot from it! Im gonna start informing others now that i'm a bit more knowledgable on the subject. Others should do the same.
Im cooler than the other side of the pillow.
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 02:08:28
October 02 2008 02:04 GMT
#136
On October 02 2008 10:35 CaptainMurphy wrote:In what way does increasing the money supply accelerate the recovery (apologies if you answered this before, I didn't read the entire OP)? Increasing the money supply ala the bailout plan is simply a transfer of real money from the taxpayer to a few large financial institutions, leaving other sectors with less resources and less liquidity.

Money increases in the short term trick firms into thinking that there's more demand that there really is, at least until inflation catches up. Basically, inflation is a transfer from savings into the present, as money in savings depreciates while more money is injected into the current economy. Eventually people catch on and adjust their strategies for it, but it can be used quite effectively as a relatively short-term tool.

Of course, you can't keep increasing inflation forever. Eventually you have to correct for inflation or it's going to become a massive problem. This is done through (shock) deflation, which has the opposite effect, it slows down the current economy and transfers current money into savings as savings appreciate more. That's why generally, these two tools have to be timed correctly, using inflation during downturns and deflation during times of plenty in order to smooth out business cycles.

And yes, the bailout plan is a targeted injection of money, not a more general increase in the supply. And yes, it will probably help prop up a misallocation of resources and slow down the recovery in general, even possibly providing future problems. The question is, are the short-term benefits of cushioning the fall worth it?
SmoKing2012
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States385 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 02:39:59
October 02 2008 02:15 GMT
#137
On October 02 2008 11:04 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2008 10:35 CaptainMurphy wrote:In what way does increasing the money supply accelerate the recovery (apologies if you answered this before, I didn't read the entire OP)? Increasing the money supply ala the bailout plan is simply a transfer of real money from the taxpayer to a few large financial institutions, leaving other sectors with less resources and less liquidity.

Money increases in the short term trick firms into thinking that there's more demand that there really is, at least until inflation catches up. Basically, inflation is a transfer from savings into the present, as money in savings depreciates while more money is injected into the current economy. Eventually people catch on and adjust their strategies for it, but it can be used quite effectively as a relatively short-term tool.


I agree that money increases 'trick' firms (to some extent) into thinking there is an increased demand. This causes them to make poor investments based on false assumptions, and as you say the transfer depreciates people's real savings. I don't see how any of that is good for the economy.

Of course, you can't keep increasing inflation forever. Eventually you have to correct for inflation or it's going to become a massive problem. This is done through (shock) deflation, which has the opposite effect, it slows down the current economy and transfers current money into savings as savings appreciate more. That's why generally, these two tools have to be timed correctly, using inflation during downturns and deflation during times of plenty in order to smooth out business cycles.

This shock deflations is always accompanied by a bust or recession, no? Can you give an example of when this has been timed correctly? I don't think this is possible.. I think it really is just a big shell game. You can't increase real wealth or standards of living through monetary policy. IMO there is no perfect timing. Loose monetary policy will always create boom-bust cycles.
How do you like them apples, ho-bag? And how do you like those very same apples, Eggars!
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 02:29:32
October 02 2008 02:27 GMT
#138
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
Ok, I started writing this in my blog but I had such a negative reception because of my ahem *indignant* tone and I figured this was important enough that if that's what was costing me readers, I should post it again a little toned down. Frankly though, I am pissed about what's happening. It's something I feel passionate about. I think educating people is one way to keep shit like this from happening again, so here goes:

WARNING
IF YOU MAKE A STUPID POST I WILL KILL YOU

DISCLAIMER
+ Show Spoiler +
Fuck the false humility -- I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday, and I did large quantities of research specifically for this post. I think that will become apparent as you read it. However, I welcome corrections of any kind and I will update the post to reflect changes. Although if you're going to disagree with me outright, you better have some good reasoning.


The News Yesterday
The Bailout was rejected in a not-even-close vote in the House, and the stock markets plummetted. The DOW dropped, 800 points (9%), an all-time record, although proportionately less than the 20% it fell on Black Tuesday and 14% on 9/17, because of 9/11.

Deregulation

NOTE: This part is controversial, to be fair. Before you start spouting my left wing propoganda to your friends, read some of the other views on the causes of the current crisis in the thread below. Ignore the idiot posters, but definitely read what jgad has to say, and onemephisto.

WHAT IS DEREGULATION YOU ASK? In short, it's a fetish. Mostly Republicans have it, but Democrats too, under different circumstances. Technically, it's the belief that rules and regulations are bad for economic growth, and that the less regulation the better. This is true, as we'll see, to an extent. Anyway, sometimes the stars are in the right alignment, and Democrats and Republicans will come together in an all-night long orgy of deregulation. This happened in 1999, with the Financial Services Modernization Act, also called the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act after the people involved in the menage-a-trois that started it all. What this did was fuck you over. What it really did was repeal large portions of the Glass-Steagall act, which if you remember from history, was passed in 1933 to keep the Great Depression from happening again by regulating banking.

Regulations are not necessarily a bad thing. All economies need regulation. In an ideal world, when every investor has very good information about which companies will succeed and which will fail like ... like THE ECONOMY IS FAILING LOLOLOL ... we wouldn't need regulation, because the free market would regulate itself: bad investments won't find investors. But in reality, nobody has perfect information. A good analogy is if you're looking on Craigslist for a female companion, and they turn out to be a guy. You got bad information buddy. You got ripped off. As a result, you just wasted time and resources, and you hurt the economy because you could've used those resources for something productive, like posting on TL.

Regulation can also be a bad thing. More rules means more red tape, means higher costs to make any business transaction. The higher these costs, the less efficiently the economy operates. The key is finding the right balance: how much regulation and in what areas will give us the fastest growth and the most stability.

The FSMA (and many other bills which tbh, I don't know enough about) took it too far. It deregulated areas it shouldn't have. Most importantly, it led to the housing bubble.

The Housing Bubble: Subprime Mortgages and Stuff

First of all, you need to understand supply and demand to really understand the rest of this. Basically, the more there is of something and the easier and cheaper it is to produce, the less something will cost. The more people want something (demand), the higher something will cost. These two forces interact to create an "equilibrium price", which is the price at which a perfectly competitive market will sell that good for.

Houses are really expensive. It would take years, even decades, for most people to save up the money they need to buy a home. For that reason, banks offer a little service they like to call "mortgages". In a mortgage, the bank lends you the money you need to buy a home, on the condition that you will pay it back PLUS a premium of x%. Mortgages are a product, just like a car is a product. In exchange for letting you buy a home sooner, you pay the bank a premium. Ideally, banks would only lend money to people they were sure could pay them back: people who had a clean criminal record, good credit, and a solid income.

Unfortunately, because of deregulation, this didn't always happen. Banks and less reputable financial organizations began lending to the "sub-prime" market. These were people whose credit history meant they had a good chance of defaulting on their loan. One reason banks made these loans was because they figured that housing prices would keep rising forever. If these guys couldn't pay back their loan, we'll just repossess the house and sell it at a profit to someone who can!!!1111 (LOL HOW WRONG THEY WERE).

+ Show Spoiler +
correction for below paragraph: I said earlier that the banks packaged them into Collateralized Debt Obligations. Wrong. Actually, the secondary mortgage market -- Mae/Mac did this.


After selling a bunch of these mortgages, banks would sell them in the secondary mortgage market to investors. You're probably thinking, "how do you sell debt???" It's simple, just remember that loans are a product. In exchange for paying for the total sum of the loan, the investor gets a portion of the premium the borrowers pay the bank. Because of rising housing costs, these mortgage backed securities were considered good investments, and were quite popular, to the point that they were acquired in the trillions of dollars by investors here and overseas.

The Housing Bubble Deflates

So long as investors kept buying mortgage backed securities, banks continued to make subprime loans. Essentially, they were speculating: gambling that because housing prices would keep rising, they would eventually make a killing. Unfortunately, speculation has the added effect of artificially inflating demand, raising prices. Thus the financial system created a self-fulfilling prophecy: By betting on increased housing prices, they made housing prices increase, creating the housing bubble.

Of course, this couldn't go on forever. Eventually, the rise in housing costs outpaced what consumers were willing to pay. This began in July 19, 2007, when the DOW hit an all-time record high. A month later, the DOW had fallen by 7%. Among the worst hit were mortgage lenders. When stocks become a bear market (it increases in volatility, and is tending toward falling), what naturally happens is that investors put their money on "safer" investments, commodities in particular. Billions were withdrawn from the mortgage industry and as a result, and banks responded by tightening their credit belts and raising interest rates.

The people on the front lines of this crisis were the subprime lenders. Most of them had signed up for Adjustable Rate Mortgages -- meaning that their interest rates were subject to change -- hoping that the inflating housing market would mean that the interest rates would gradually decline in respect to real wages. Because sub-prime mortgage lenders had been hit so hard in the stock market, they needed to raise capital, fast. So they increased interest rates. The reasoning was that even if these people couldn't pay back their loans, the banks would foreclose on them and they could sell the houses again for money. The problem with this logic was supply and demand: Because millions of homes were being foreclosed across the country at THE SAME TIME, supply went up. Because banks were tightening their credit and it was becoming harder to get a mortgage, demand was down. These two factors combined to create rapid deflation in the housing market that is still continuing today.

After a while, as banks hemorrhaged more and more money, it became not just the subprime borrowers who got fucked over, but prime borrowers as well. This happened because banks had to really tighten up credit everywhere to keep themselves afloat. Rising interest rates, combined with declining wages and increased unemployment sent even qualified homeowners into foreclosure, dropping housing prices further. This is an important theme that will appear again and again here: as one sector of the economy blows up, the rest must make up for it.

While we normally think of inflation as an indicator of an economy gone sour, in this case deflation is much worse. The more housing prices fall, the less money banks can get back from their bad loans, and the more investors lose on their mortgage backed securities.

The Next Domino: Wall Street

Until now, I haven't really talked much about what's happening right now with wall street. But this is crucial to understanding the bailout. Everything in the economy relates with what's happening now, including your wages and how long you'll be holding on to your job. People tend to think of wall street as the place rich people go to make more money, but that's just not true. When you deposit money into a bank or certificate of deposit or savings account or mutual fund or hedge fund or whatever, that money doesn't just sit there and magically grow. It's invested. Without investment, if everybody just hoarded the money they had, the economy would cease to grow. Without investment and easy access to credit, you can't start a new business, buy a new tractor for your farm, or buy a new home. Credit and investment is everything.

Bear Stearns was among the first big names to go. Bear Stearns was an investment bank, meaning you didn't just go to a bear stearns office and start a checking account. People put large sums of money into Bear Stearns through equity (shares of stock) or their "wealth management" division that got invested into things like other investment companies, oil, and SUB-PRIME MORTGAGES. Obviously, it's the last that did Bear Sterns in. What was so shocking is how fast it happened. One day Bears was trading at $130 a share, the next they were down to $10 or $20. The reason for the rapid decline was the fact that the executives over at Bear Stearns finally decided to admit just how much money they lost in the two hedge funds they had that specialized in sub-prime mortgages. BOOM! And the floor fell out right under those poor investment bankers. The only way they could even sell their company off was if the fed promised JPMorgan Chase it would cover any losses they suffered from buying out Stearns.

Which brings me to federal bailouts. I don't have the energy to cover every bailout (although I will do more work on Mae and Mac later), but in general, here's the reasoning behind them: When an investor loses lots of money in whatever, that makes them much less likely to invest again in the same sector because 1) they have less money to invest 2) they don't want to take the risk. When someone loses a few billion in mortgage backed securities, they are less likely to invest in mortgages again. The federal reserve feels it has to bail out or at least guarantee the solvency of these companies because if they were to go bankrupt, the consequent losses would have such a powerful damping effect on investment it would exacerbate the housing and credit crisis. I will openly admit that my knowledge of investment banking is limited. I think Last Romantic who is majoring in this shit (POOR GUY) knows more than I do, and if he reads this he can fill you all in more. But here's a quick review of what's going on:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

onemephisto posted an excellent review of the history of these mortgage giants, and how they contributed to the housing bubble very significantly:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 01 2008 07:11 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 05:53 ahrara_ wrote:I'm pretty sure I covered this under Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, although not with detail. I would argue that deregulation contributed, but that deregulation of mae/mac contributed more. My background knowledge on the two companies is poor, so if you can fill me in that'd be cool. I could add it it to the post under a spoiler, just make sure it's well written.

Well, how I understand it:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were originally both created by the government as government agencies, but were later partially privatized, resulting in them being called Government Sponsored Enterprises, or GSEs. Their purpose was to use their large supply of capital to buy mortgages off of the market, repackage them into securities and other derivatives, and then sell them to other firms.

However, even though they are partially privatized, they still retain a lot of government control and influence. They're regulated by Department of Housing and Urban Development (I think this started in the early 90s) and are chartered by Congress. Since HUD has become their regulator, they have had yearly goals; they're supposed to buy a certain amount of "affordable" loans (read: low-down-payment loans to low-income families). Of course, this sounds good, as everyone wants low-income families to have housing right? However, the fact is that many people simply can't afford housing, and the government mandate for Fannie and Freddie to buy these bad loans has made them viable for banks to offer (especially considering how large Fannie and Freddie are, they buy something like 40% of mortgages created each year). And to encourage even more of these subprime loans, Congress also passed a law giving tax credits to Fannie and Freddie when they bought subprime securities, further increasing the demand for them.

So these government mandates and incentives greatly increased the amount of bad loans the Fannie and Freddie bought. What allowed other banks and investment firms to buy these repackaged securities from F&F was the implicit government guarantee behind them, basically, since the government had so much stake in F&F, people assumed that the government wouldn't let them fail or let their liabilities disappear (which was obviously true), creating a moral hazard situation where people disregard risk because there is no downside to failing.

So government regulation and interference with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac contributed to the creation of the bubble, and the implicit government guarantee behind the securities allowed it to spread.

Of course, this isn't the only reason, but there are also many other government regulations that have helped create this crisis. The Community Reinvestment Act, which was substantially strengthened in 1995, mandated that banks make a certain amount of loans to low-income families, again creating a misallocation of resources into the housing market. There was also a recent act that reduced the capital gains taxes that people had to pay on homes substantially, but I can't find a source atm.

I'm not clearing investors of all blame, sure, they acted greedy, ignored risks, and took advantage of new derivatives and the market situation. But I'm saying that fundamentally, the problem was with too much government regulation and interference, not too little. More government regulation probably could've delayed this problem, but it would've only been a short-term fix to the underlying problems introduced by the government itself.

tl;dr, Government mandates for affordable housing loans to low-interest families and it's control over the Government Sponsored Enterprises of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the underlying driving force for the creation and subsequent popping of this bubble.



This bailout was absolutely crucial. I told you earlier that Mortgaged Backed Securities were sold by the people who did the lending in the first place, right? Before that happens, the individual debts are sold in the "Secondary Mortgage Market" to Mae/Mac, these two semi-governmental entities created during the Great Depression to make it easier for people to get homes. These two companies serve as "lubricants" of the housing market. They help money flow to where housing demand is highest. For example, if I am a banker and where I live all of a sudden has a huge increase in demand for homes, but I only have a little bit of capital to lend, I can look to Mae/Mac to fully exploit this demand and meet the needs of the market. These guys together were responsible for 70% of American mortgages. SEVENTY FUCKING PERCENT HOLY SHIT.

But Because of Democrat idiocy (SORRY BUT OUR PARTY ISN'T PERFECT, DURRR), these two lenders are practically unregulated. The idea was that this would help them make it easier for people to get a home. What it actually did was to enhance the "moral hazard" situation for home lenders. Because they knew they could just sell off sub-prime mortgages to Mae/Mac, they made more subprime loans, but wiped their hands clean of the risk when they sold it. This is what economists call Moral Hazard: when somebody does something risky but the consequences of that risk is felt by someone else. It encourages unwise behavior like subprime lending. If I press a button that maybe kills YOU, I am more likely to press the button than if it maybe killed ME.

Here's the thing. When Mae/Mac sell those Collateralized Debt Obligations/Mortgage Backed Securities, they guarantee to the investor that they will pay them the full value of the investment even if the homeowner defaults on the mortgage. Uh oh. Moral Hazard anybody? Anyway, if these two companies failed, there would be TRILLIONS of dollars of losses globally. I'll go more into why that's bad specifically for the housing crisis later (although it should be obvious it's a bad thing in general).

Lehman Brothers

Allowed to go bankrupt because fed felt they did not have assets into crucial enough areas of the economy. The reason Bear Stearns was "guaranteed" was because it collapsed so quickly, and for classification reasons was outside of the fed's oversight jurisdiction, so it wasn't possible if Stearns was important to the market.

American International Group

AIG is unique because it is an insurance company that has its fingers everywhere, in every sector of the economy. It specialized in "credit default swaps" which I'm not going to even pretend to understand completely, but basically they guaranteed through insurance a lot of bad debt investments, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It absolutely COULD. NOT. fail. Without going into detail, it was still a profitable organization, but because of procedural issues, it needed more capital. So the fed lent it $85 billion it could use to fulfill those procedural obligations and keep working. As punishment, it took over 80% of the company's equity, or stock.

A nasty situation

Ok, before we go on the last leg of this GINORMOUS post (nobody is reading this whole thing anyway, I know), let's look at just what the situation was like before the $700 billion bailout was announced.

1.) The housing market continues to deflate. As of early September, banks had totaled some $500 billion in writedowns, and that number is growing. Write-downs are only "recognized" reductions in value. The real losses will number in the trillions.

2.) As for wall street, the problem is getting worse. Every time the fed has bailed out a company, the markets rallied, only to fall again the next day as more bad news was reported, and it became clear that the market was not done collapsing in on itself. Part of it has to do with the fact that we're in a bear market -- again, a market where the mood is generally pessimistic, and people are much more willing to sell. Part of it has to do with uncertainty that the next company will get bailed out. Finally, people are actually DISCOURAGED from investing in the companies who need it the most because in every bailout, the fed has wiped out shareholders (they acquired a large portion of the company's equity).

3.) Money is going into safer, but less profitable investments. This is evidenced by the fact that the U.S. Treasury Bill, considered one of the safest possible investments, has lowered its yield to something like .16% from 1.6% earlier this month. The yield drops as more people invest in bills. Just look at what happens to the 1 month bill after 9/12: http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/debt-management/interest-rate/yield.shtml (note: it rose above 1% today, not sure why :\).

I told you earlier that consumer credit was tight because of the sub-prime market collapse. Now, the credit problem has spread to wall street. Interbank lending interest rates are at about 2% higher than normal. Depending on inflation, that's a 200%-1000% interest in the premium banks pay to borrow money from each other. Inter-bank lending serves to "lubricate" the financial system, just like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Interbank lending directly affects consumer lending. A bank could WANT to give you a loan for a car can't but it might not have enough capital, so it borrows some from another bank. But if that interbank loan is really expensive, your loan will also be more expensive. Over in London, it's up to 7% for overnight loans: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/09/30/libor-record.html

BAILOUT my ass

After the failure of AIG, the Fed realized that it couldn't go on giving these Ad Hoc bailouts. It had to once and for all fix the housing problem. When you want to fix anything, the best solution is to attack the root cause.

Essentially, the problem is one of liquidity, or liquid capital. Liquidity describes how easily an asset can be transferred into a different kind of asset, and at what cost. Cash is the most liquid asset possible: Anyone will accept cash for anything, except under excess inflation. A car, on the other hand, is less liquid. You have to go through a lot more trouble to trade a car for something else of equal value, and you will always sell for less than its real value. Before the housing crisis, mortgage backed securities retained some degree of liquidity. After the crisis, they became practically illiquid: Because of the risk associated with them and all the negative headlines, nobody would buy them at a reasonable cost. Essentially, these securities still have SOME worth, but because nobody will buy them for a reasonable price, banks may as well have a black hole where these securities are. It is because they lost so much money on these securities that is fueling the credit crisis.

To fix a liquidity problem, you have to create a market for the illiquid assets. You have to help these companies convert mortgage backed securities into capital they can use to help the economy get back on its feet. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson teamed up with Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke to write up a plan that would allocate $700 billion to create a market for these securities. Meaning, the government would offer to buy up these securities: they would take them off the hands of investment banks and replace them with cash. Then, the government would either hold on to these securities until they mature (when they "put out" in other words) or sell them to someone else. A similar system was set up in the 80's during the Savings and Loan crisis, but not at this scale.

How this will fix the problem should be obvious. By injecting liquidity into the system, banks will be again willing to lend, and credit will be looser. It will become easier to buy a home, but not so easy the bubble will begin to inflate again. Demand for housing goes up, and prices stabilize. The losses will still be there, but at least the problem won't get any worse.

There's some kinda irrelevant and esoteric information about how the fed will determine prices for these securities. If you're really interested, it's in spoilers. But it wasn't fitting into the narrative as a whole so I cut it...
+ Show Spoiler +

You may have heard the term "reverse auction" thrown about. Basically, that's the method the fed plans to use to determine how much they want to buy up these securities for. Why can't they just pay the market "equilibrium" price, you say? Because there IS no market. Moreover, each mortgage backed security is different from the next: it's impossible to tell exactly how much is worth. It's like trying to buy off a whole bunch of different paintings. Each one is different. You can only guess how much it's "worth". Like art, the fed plans to determine the price through auction, except that because there's only one buyer, it works in reverse: First the fed will announce the kind of security it plans to buy, then the sellers will bid for the lowest price. The fed will also be hiring help people who can "appraise" the value of each security. This doesn't play a significant role in the story... but I figured it's worth discussing and has to do with the arguments for or against why a bailout is good or bad.


So there's a few things about the bailout that are under debate... but it's hard to talking about that without inserting:

My Goddamn Opinion

At this point, there's not much more to tell you that you don't already know. So I reserve my right to soapbox for a few minutes.

1.) The Bailout is not as expensive as $700 billion.

As I said earlier, while most of these securities are losing money as a whole, they still retain SOME value. Not everyone is going to default on their loans. The fed can either hold these mortgages until they mature or sell them off, if the market has recovered. They could end up earning back between $500 billion to nearly breaking even.

2.) It's not a bailout.

The worst thing Bernanke did in selling the bailout was to call it a bailout. Nobody is coming in and arbitrarily injecting capital into companies that don't deserve it. They are doing it in exchange for these securities. What we're doing is trading much needed liquidity into companies that don't have it.

3.) Don't handicap the bailout.

All this talk about limiting executive pay, creating incentives to negotiate, etc. etc. are valuable policies (to an extent). Geez Congress, maybe you should've instituted them BEFORE THE FUCKING CRISIS YOU TARDS. The economic crisis is not happening soon, it is not happening next year, it is happening NOW and you shitholes need to something about it and not, as my esteemed congressman Pete Stark said this morning, "hold a month of hearings". No I'm not kidding, the fucktard actually said that. Then he blamed tax policies for the crisis. Palin is more fucking informed.

Second, it's important to keep in mind that the bailout is voluntary. If companies don't want to sell their mortgage backed securities because the government requires that they have to give up equity or their severance packages, then they won't sell them, handicapping the bailout.

4.) Not bailing out is much worse.

OK, here is the important part. The argument by free-market fundamentalists is two fold. First, they say that the market is undergoing a "correction". Second, they tell you that bailouts create a moral hazard.

First, it's true that the housing market is undergoing a correction. However, you have to keep in mind that most homes are bought through mortgages. A lot of banks are unwilling to lend even to qualified buyers, so the price of housing might even be BENEATH the ideal equilibrium price. So long as credit remains tight, housing prices will continue to fall, banks will keep bleeding money, and the economy goes down a vicious spiral into stagnation and recession.

Second, this is an inappropriate use of the concept. Bankers have already suffered plenty from the housing crisis. They know better than to let this happen again. Moreover, the costs of NOT bailing out are much higher than the cost of creating this minimal moral hazard.

Conclusion: Why you care and don't even know it

I'm really running out of steam... I don't feel like I could do a good job if I wrote this right now. I'll save the conclusion for another day, if I get around to it. But the gist is there. As more questions come up I'll try to fill them in here i guess.

Inside joke for debaters
I hope the Bailout/Nuke War disad I ran all weekend were as flaky as judges kept telling me they were.


Fair question before committing to reading this rediculously large text: what's your background? (i'm scrolling and see generous use caps locks and "fucking retards" etc .... rant = no thx)


I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday

-_-;; nvm
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3700 Posts
October 02 2008 02:31 GMT
#139
On October 02 2008 11:27 HeadBangaa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 01 2008 04:08 ahrara_ wrote:
Ok, I started writing this in my blog but I had such a negative reception because of my ahem *indignant* tone and I figured this was important enough that if that's what was costing me readers, I should post it again a little toned down. Frankly though, I am pissed about what's happening. It's something I feel passionate about. I think educating people is one way to keep shit like this from happening again, so here goes:

WARNING
IF YOU MAKE A STUPID POST I WILL KILL YOU

DISCLAIMER
+ Show Spoiler +
Fuck the false humility -- I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday, and I did large quantities of research specifically for this post. I think that will become apparent as you read it. However, I welcome corrections of any kind and I will update the post to reflect changes. Although if you're going to disagree with me outright, you better have some good reasoning.


The News Yesterday
The Bailout was rejected in a not-even-close vote in the House, and the stock markets plummetted. The DOW dropped, 800 points (9%), an all-time record, although proportionately less than the 20% it fell on Black Tuesday and 14% on 9/17, because of 9/11.

Deregulation

NOTE: This part is controversial, to be fair. Before you start spouting my left wing propoganda to your friends, read some of the other views on the causes of the current crisis in the thread below. Ignore the idiot posters, but definitely read what jgad has to say, and onemephisto.

WHAT IS DEREGULATION YOU ASK? In short, it's a fetish. Mostly Republicans have it, but Democrats too, under different circumstances. Technically, it's the belief that rules and regulations are bad for economic growth, and that the less regulation the better. This is true, as we'll see, to an extent. Anyway, sometimes the stars are in the right alignment, and Democrats and Republicans will come together in an all-night long orgy of deregulation. This happened in 1999, with the Financial Services Modernization Act, also called the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act after the people involved in the menage-a-trois that started it all. What this did was fuck you over. What it really did was repeal large portions of the Glass-Steagall act, which if you remember from history, was passed in 1933 to keep the Great Depression from happening again by regulating banking.

Regulations are not necessarily a bad thing. All economies need regulation. In an ideal world, when every investor has very good information about which companies will succeed and which will fail like ... like THE ECONOMY IS FAILING LOLOLOL ... we wouldn't need regulation, because the free market would regulate itself: bad investments won't find investors. But in reality, nobody has perfect information. A good analogy is if you're looking on Craigslist for a female companion, and they turn out to be a guy. You got bad information buddy. You got ripped off. As a result, you just wasted time and resources, and you hurt the economy because you could've used those resources for something productive, like posting on TL.

Regulation can also be a bad thing. More rules means more red tape, means higher costs to make any business transaction. The higher these costs, the less efficiently the economy operates. The key is finding the right balance: how much regulation and in what areas will give us the fastest growth and the most stability.

The FSMA (and many other bills which tbh, I don't know enough about) took it too far. It deregulated areas it shouldn't have. Most importantly, it led to the housing bubble.

The Housing Bubble: Subprime Mortgages and Stuff

First of all, you need to understand supply and demand to really understand the rest of this. Basically, the more there is of something and the easier and cheaper it is to produce, the less something will cost. The more people want something (demand), the higher something will cost. These two forces interact to create an "equilibrium price", which is the price at which a perfectly competitive market will sell that good for.

Houses are really expensive. It would take years, even decades, for most people to save up the money they need to buy a home. For that reason, banks offer a little service they like to call "mortgages". In a mortgage, the bank lends you the money you need to buy a home, on the condition that you will pay it back PLUS a premium of x%. Mortgages are a product, just like a car is a product. In exchange for letting you buy a home sooner, you pay the bank a premium. Ideally, banks would only lend money to people they were sure could pay them back: people who had a clean criminal record, good credit, and a solid income.

Unfortunately, because of deregulation, this didn't always happen. Banks and less reputable financial organizations began lending to the "sub-prime" market. These were people whose credit history meant they had a good chance of defaulting on their loan. One reason banks made these loans was because they figured that housing prices would keep rising forever. If these guys couldn't pay back their loan, we'll just repossess the house and sell it at a profit to someone who can!!!1111 (LOL HOW WRONG THEY WERE).

+ Show Spoiler +
correction for below paragraph: I said earlier that the banks packaged them into Collateralized Debt Obligations. Wrong. Actually, the secondary mortgage market -- Mae/Mac did this.


After selling a bunch of these mortgages, banks would sell them in the secondary mortgage market to investors. You're probably thinking, "how do you sell debt???" It's simple, just remember that loans are a product. In exchange for paying for the total sum of the loan, the investor gets a portion of the premium the borrowers pay the bank. Because of rising housing costs, these mortgage backed securities were considered good investments, and were quite popular, to the point that they were acquired in the trillions of dollars by investors here and overseas.

The Housing Bubble Deflates

So long as investors kept buying mortgage backed securities, banks continued to make subprime loans. Essentially, they were speculating: gambling that because housing prices would keep rising, they would eventually make a killing. Unfortunately, speculation has the added effect of artificially inflating demand, raising prices. Thus the financial system created a self-fulfilling prophecy: By betting on increased housing prices, they made housing prices increase, creating the housing bubble.

Of course, this couldn't go on forever. Eventually, the rise in housing costs outpaced what consumers were willing to pay. This began in July 19, 2007, when the DOW hit an all-time record high. A month later, the DOW had fallen by 7%. Among the worst hit were mortgage lenders. When stocks become a bear market (it increases in volatility, and is tending toward falling), what naturally happens is that investors put their money on "safer" investments, commodities in particular. Billions were withdrawn from the mortgage industry and as a result, and banks responded by tightening their credit belts and raising interest rates.

The people on the front lines of this crisis were the subprime lenders. Most of them had signed up for Adjustable Rate Mortgages -- meaning that their interest rates were subject to change -- hoping that the inflating housing market would mean that the interest rates would gradually decline in respect to real wages. Because sub-prime mortgage lenders had been hit so hard in the stock market, they needed to raise capital, fast. So they increased interest rates. The reasoning was that even if these people couldn't pay back their loans, the banks would foreclose on them and they could sell the houses again for money. The problem with this logic was supply and demand: Because millions of homes were being foreclosed across the country at THE SAME TIME, supply went up. Because banks were tightening their credit and it was becoming harder to get a mortgage, demand was down. These two factors combined to create rapid deflation in the housing market that is still continuing today.

After a while, as banks hemorrhaged more and more money, it became not just the subprime borrowers who got fucked over, but prime borrowers as well. This happened because banks had to really tighten up credit everywhere to keep themselves afloat. Rising interest rates, combined with declining wages and increased unemployment sent even qualified homeowners into foreclosure, dropping housing prices further. This is an important theme that will appear again and again here: as one sector of the economy blows up, the rest must make up for it.

While we normally think of inflation as an indicator of an economy gone sour, in this case deflation is much worse. The more housing prices fall, the less money banks can get back from their bad loans, and the more investors lose on their mortgage backed securities.

The Next Domino: Wall Street

Until now, I haven't really talked much about what's happening right now with wall street. But this is crucial to understanding the bailout. Everything in the economy relates with what's happening now, including your wages and how long you'll be holding on to your job. People tend to think of wall street as the place rich people go to make more money, but that's just not true. When you deposit money into a bank or certificate of deposit or savings account or mutual fund or hedge fund or whatever, that money doesn't just sit there and magically grow. It's invested. Without investment, if everybody just hoarded the money they had, the economy would cease to grow. Without investment and easy access to credit, you can't start a new business, buy a new tractor for your farm, or buy a new home. Credit and investment is everything.

Bear Stearns was among the first big names to go. Bear Stearns was an investment bank, meaning you didn't just go to a bear stearns office and start a checking account. People put large sums of money into Bear Stearns through equity (shares of stock) or their "wealth management" division that got invested into things like other investment companies, oil, and SUB-PRIME MORTGAGES. Obviously, it's the last that did Bear Sterns in. What was so shocking is how fast it happened. One day Bears was trading at $130 a share, the next they were down to $10 or $20. The reason for the rapid decline was the fact that the executives over at Bear Stearns finally decided to admit just how much money they lost in the two hedge funds they had that specialized in sub-prime mortgages. BOOM! And the floor fell out right under those poor investment bankers. The only way they could even sell their company off was if the fed promised JPMorgan Chase it would cover any losses they suffered from buying out Stearns.

Which brings me to federal bailouts. I don't have the energy to cover every bailout (although I will do more work on Mae and Mac later), but in general, here's the reasoning behind them: When an investor loses lots of money in whatever, that makes them much less likely to invest again in the same sector because 1) they have less money to invest 2) they don't want to take the risk. When someone loses a few billion in mortgage backed securities, they are less likely to invest in mortgages again. The federal reserve feels it has to bail out or at least guarantee the solvency of these companies because if they were to go bankrupt, the consequent losses would have such a powerful damping effect on investment it would exacerbate the housing and credit crisis. I will openly admit that my knowledge of investment banking is limited. I think Last Romantic who is majoring in this shit (POOR GUY) knows more than I do, and if he reads this he can fill you all in more. But here's a quick review of what's going on:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

onemephisto posted an excellent review of the history of these mortgage giants, and how they contributed to the housing bubble very significantly:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 01 2008 07:11 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2008 05:53 ahrara_ wrote:I'm pretty sure I covered this under Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, although not with detail. I would argue that deregulation contributed, but that deregulation of mae/mac contributed more. My background knowledge on the two companies is poor, so if you can fill me in that'd be cool. I could add it it to the post under a spoiler, just make sure it's well written.

Well, how I understand it:

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were originally both created by the government as government agencies, but were later partially privatized, resulting in them being called Government Sponsored Enterprises, or GSEs. Their purpose was to use their large supply of capital to buy mortgages off of the market, repackage them into securities and other derivatives, and then sell them to other firms.

However, even though they are partially privatized, they still retain a lot of government control and influence. They're regulated by Department of Housing and Urban Development (I think this started in the early 90s) and are chartered by Congress. Since HUD has become their regulator, they have had yearly goals; they're supposed to buy a certain amount of "affordable" loans (read: low-down-payment loans to low-income families). Of course, this sounds good, as everyone wants low-income families to have housing right? However, the fact is that many people simply can't afford housing, and the government mandate for Fannie and Freddie to buy these bad loans has made them viable for banks to offer (especially considering how large Fannie and Freddie are, they buy something like 40% of mortgages created each year). And to encourage even more of these subprime loans, Congress also passed a law giving tax credits to Fannie and Freddie when they bought subprime securities, further increasing the demand for them.

So these government mandates and incentives greatly increased the amount of bad loans the Fannie and Freddie bought. What allowed other banks and investment firms to buy these repackaged securities from F&F was the implicit government guarantee behind them, basically, since the government had so much stake in F&F, people assumed that the government wouldn't let them fail or let their liabilities disappear (which was obviously true), creating a moral hazard situation where people disregard risk because there is no downside to failing.

So government regulation and interference with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac contributed to the creation of the bubble, and the implicit government guarantee behind the securities allowed it to spread.

Of course, this isn't the only reason, but there are also many other government regulations that have helped create this crisis. The Community Reinvestment Act, which was substantially strengthened in 1995, mandated that banks make a certain amount of loans to low-income families, again creating a misallocation of resources into the housing market. There was also a recent act that reduced the capital gains taxes that people had to pay on homes substantially, but I can't find a source atm.

I'm not clearing investors of all blame, sure, they acted greedy, ignored risks, and took advantage of new derivatives and the market situation. But I'm saying that fundamentally, the problem was with too much government regulation and interference, not too little. More government regulation probably could've delayed this problem, but it would've only been a short-term fix to the underlying problems introduced by the government itself.

tl;dr, Government mandates for affordable housing loans to low-interest families and it's control over the Government Sponsored Enterprises of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the underlying driving force for the creation and subsequent popping of this bubble.



This bailout was absolutely crucial. I told you earlier that Mortgaged Backed Securities were sold by the people who did the lending in the first place, right? Before that happens, the individual debts are sold in the "Secondary Mortgage Market" to Mae/Mac, these two semi-governmental entities created during the Great Depression to make it easier for people to get homes. These two companies serve as "lubricants" of the housing market. They help money flow to where housing demand is highest. For example, if I am a banker and where I live all of a sudden has a huge increase in demand for homes, but I only have a little bit of capital to lend, I can look to Mae/Mac to fully exploit this demand and meet the needs of the market. These guys together were responsible for 70% of American mortgages. SEVENTY FUCKING PERCENT HOLY SHIT.

But Because of Democrat idiocy (SORRY BUT OUR PARTY ISN'T PERFECT, DURRR), these two lenders are practically unregulated. The idea was that this would help them make it easier for people to get a home. What it actually did was to enhance the "moral hazard" situation for home lenders. Because they knew they could just sell off sub-prime mortgages to Mae/Mac, they made more subprime loans, but wiped their hands clean of the risk when they sold it. This is what economists call Moral Hazard: when somebody does something risky but the consequences of that risk is felt by someone else. It encourages unwise behavior like subprime lending. If I press a button that maybe kills YOU, I am more likely to press the button than if it maybe killed ME.

Here's the thing. When Mae/Mac sell those Collateralized Debt Obligations/Mortgage Backed Securities, they guarantee to the investor that they will pay them the full value of the investment even if the homeowner defaults on the mortgage. Uh oh. Moral Hazard anybody? Anyway, if these two companies failed, there would be TRILLIONS of dollars of losses globally. I'll go more into why that's bad specifically for the housing crisis later (although it should be obvious it's a bad thing in general).

Lehman Brothers

Allowed to go bankrupt because fed felt they did not have assets into crucial enough areas of the economy. The reason Bear Stearns was "guaranteed" was because it collapsed so quickly, and for classification reasons was outside of the fed's oversight jurisdiction, so it wasn't possible if Stearns was important to the market.

American International Group

AIG is unique because it is an insurance company that has its fingers everywhere, in every sector of the economy. It specialized in "credit default swaps" which I'm not going to even pretend to understand completely, but basically they guaranteed through insurance a lot of bad debt investments, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It absolutely COULD. NOT. fail. Without going into detail, it was still a profitable organization, but because of procedural issues, it needed more capital. So the fed lent it $85 billion it could use to fulfill those procedural obligations and keep working. As punishment, it took over 80% of the company's equity, or stock.

A nasty situation

Ok, before we go on the last leg of this GINORMOUS post (nobody is reading this whole thing anyway, I know), let's look at just what the situation was like before the $700 billion bailout was announced.

1.) The housing market continues to deflate. As of early September, banks had totaled some $500 billion in writedowns, and that number is growing. Write-downs are only "recognized" reductions in value. The real losses will number in the trillions.

2.) As for wall street, the problem is getting worse. Every time the fed has bailed out a company, the markets rallied, only to fall again the next day as more bad news was reported, and it became clear that the market was not done collapsing in on itself. Part of it has to do with the fact that we're in a bear market -- again, a market where the mood is generally pessimistic, and people are much more willing to sell. Part of it has to do with uncertainty that the next company will get bailed out. Finally, people are actually DISCOURAGED from investing in the companies who need it the most because in every bailout, the fed has wiped out shareholders (they acquired a large portion of the company's equity).

3.) Money is going into safer, but less profitable investments. This is evidenced by the fact that the U.S. Treasury Bill, considered one of the safest possible investments, has lowered its yield to something like .16% from 1.6% earlier this month. The yield drops as more people invest in bills. Just look at what happens to the 1 month bill after 9/12: http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/debt-management/interest-rate/yield.shtml (note: it rose above 1% today, not sure why :\).

I told you earlier that consumer credit was tight because of the sub-prime market collapse. Now, the credit problem has spread to wall street. Interbank lending interest rates are at about 2% higher than normal. Depending on inflation, that's a 200%-1000% interest in the premium banks pay to borrow money from each other. Inter-bank lending serves to "lubricate" the financial system, just like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Interbank lending directly affects consumer lending. A bank could WANT to give you a loan for a car can't but it might not have enough capital, so it borrows some from another bank. But if that interbank loan is really expensive, your loan will also be more expensive. Over in London, it's up to 7% for overnight loans: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/09/30/libor-record.html

BAILOUT my ass

After the failure of AIG, the Fed realized that it couldn't go on giving these Ad Hoc bailouts. It had to once and for all fix the housing problem. When you want to fix anything, the best solution is to attack the root cause.

Essentially, the problem is one of liquidity, or liquid capital. Liquidity describes how easily an asset can be transferred into a different kind of asset, and at what cost. Cash is the most liquid asset possible: Anyone will accept cash for anything, except under excess inflation. A car, on the other hand, is less liquid. You have to go through a lot more trouble to trade a car for something else of equal value, and you will always sell for less than its real value. Before the housing crisis, mortgage backed securities retained some degree of liquidity. After the crisis, they became practically illiquid: Because of the risk associated with them and all the negative headlines, nobody would buy them at a reasonable cost. Essentially, these securities still have SOME worth, but because nobody will buy them for a reasonable price, banks may as well have a black hole where these securities are. It is because they lost so much money on these securities that is fueling the credit crisis.

To fix a liquidity problem, you have to create a market for the illiquid assets. You have to help these companies convert mortgage backed securities into capital they can use to help the economy get back on its feet. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson teamed up with Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke to write up a plan that would allocate $700 billion to create a market for these securities. Meaning, the government would offer to buy up these securities: they would take them off the hands of investment banks and replace them with cash. Then, the government would either hold on to these securities until they mature (when they "put out" in other words) or sell them to someone else. A similar system was set up in the 80's during the Savings and Loan crisis, but not at this scale.

How this will fix the problem should be obvious. By injecting liquidity into the system, banks will be again willing to lend, and credit will be looser. It will become easier to buy a home, but not so easy the bubble will begin to inflate again. Demand for housing goes up, and prices stabilize. The losses will still be there, but at least the problem won't get any worse.

There's some kinda irrelevant and esoteric information about how the fed will determine prices for these securities. If you're really interested, it's in spoilers. But it wasn't fitting into the narrative as a whole so I cut it...
+ Show Spoiler +

You may have heard the term "reverse auction" thrown about. Basically, that's the method the fed plans to use to determine how much they want to buy up these securities for. Why can't they just pay the market "equilibrium" price, you say? Because there IS no market. Moreover, each mortgage backed security is different from the next: it's impossible to tell exactly how much is worth. It's like trying to buy off a whole bunch of different paintings. Each one is different. You can only guess how much it's "worth". Like art, the fed plans to determine the price through auction, except that because there's only one buyer, it works in reverse: First the fed will announce the kind of security it plans to buy, then the sellers will bid for the lowest price. The fed will also be hiring help people who can "appraise" the value of each security. This doesn't play a significant role in the story... but I figured it's worth discussing and has to do with the arguments for or against why a bailout is good or bad.


So there's a few things about the bailout that are under debate... but it's hard to talking about that without inserting:

My Goddamn Opinion

At this point, there's not much more to tell you that you don't already know. So I reserve my right to soapbox for a few minutes.

1.) The Bailout is not as expensive as $700 billion.

As I said earlier, while most of these securities are losing money as a whole, they still retain SOME value. Not everyone is going to default on their loans. The fed can either hold these mortgages until they mature or sell them off, if the market has recovered. They could end up earning back between $500 billion to nearly breaking even.

2.) It's not a bailout.

The worst thing Bernanke did in selling the bailout was to call it a bailout. Nobody is coming in and arbitrarily injecting capital into companies that don't deserve it. They are doing it in exchange for these securities. What we're doing is trading much needed liquidity into companies that don't have it.

3.) Don't handicap the bailout.

All this talk about limiting executive pay, creating incentives to negotiate, etc. etc. are valuable policies (to an extent). Geez Congress, maybe you should've instituted them BEFORE THE FUCKING CRISIS YOU TARDS. The economic crisis is not happening soon, it is not happening next year, it is happening NOW and you shitholes need to something about it and not, as my esteemed congressman Pete Stark said this morning, "hold a month of hearings". No I'm not kidding, the fucktard actually said that. Then he blamed tax policies for the crisis. Palin is more fucking informed.

Second, it's important to keep in mind that the bailout is voluntary. If companies don't want to sell their mortgage backed securities because the government requires that they have to give up equity or their severance packages, then they won't sell them, handicapping the bailout.

4.) Not bailing out is much worse.

OK, here is the important part. The argument by free-market fundamentalists is two fold. First, they say that the market is undergoing a "correction". Second, they tell you that bailouts create a moral hazard.

First, it's true that the housing market is undergoing a correction. However, you have to keep in mind that most homes are bought through mortgages. A lot of banks are unwilling to lend even to qualified buyers, so the price of housing might even be BENEATH the ideal equilibrium price. So long as credit remains tight, housing prices will continue to fall, banks will keep bleeding money, and the economy goes down a vicious spiral into stagnation and recession.

Second, this is an inappropriate use of the concept. Bankers have already suffered plenty from the housing crisis. They know better than to let this happen again. Moreover, the costs of NOT bailing out are much higher than the cost of creating this minimal moral hazard.

Conclusion: Why you care and don't even know it

I'm really running out of steam... I don't feel like I could do a good job if I wrote this right now. I'll save the conclusion for another day, if I get around to it. But the gist is there. As more questions come up I'll try to fill them in here i guess.

Inside joke for debaters
I hope the Bailout/Nuke War disad I ran all weekend were as flaky as judges kept telling me they were.


Fair question before committing to reading this rediculously large text: what's your background? (i'm scrolling and see generous use caps locks and "fucking retards" etc .... rant = no thx)

Show nested quote +

I know what I'm talking about. I read boatloads everyday

-_-;; nvm

He decided on page 6 he wasn't qualified to discuss economics:

I'm going to leave the economics to econ majors and sit my poli-sci major ass on the discussion of the fed.

But apparently he left up the huge long OP that has a lot to do with economics
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
ahrara_
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Afghanistan1715 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-02 02:47:55
October 02 2008 02:34 GMT
#140
everybody i might as well let you know now

i made all that shit up

don't believe a word of it. got it all from places like brookings, the economist, the new york times, CFR, Cato, etc. etc.

tricked you didn't I.

Seriously, no I don't have the fucking credentials. I never claimed to be an expert as has been made obvious by the couple of times posters in here have stumped me. What I've posted is common knowledge to those who have been following the crisis. But I have an interest in following what's going on. If you see a factual error, please correct me. If you don't, you're obviously even worse informed than I am, so just deal.

edit:

After some reflection, I think it's fair to criticize my credentials, and that it probably sounds arrogant to say I'm qualified just because "I read a lot." So let me qualify that statement more.

1.) I have taken Macroecon, but most of my understanding is "grounds up" learning. That means I picked it up in bits and pieces through my reading, and used my macroecon text to weave it all together. That leaves holes in my knowledge in places that aren't covered as often in my reading. Obviously in the discussion of the fed is one example.

2.) I'm on the debate team at my school (a decent one I might add) and about 2-3 hours of my day consists of reading from the Economist, NYT, and a selection of 20-30 think tanks from every side of the spectrum. I've been doing this for a few months, and while admittedly there are still holes in my knowledge, my understanding of world events is pretty comprehensive.

3.) It's frustrating being accused of ignorance by people who have neither made the effort to show how I am factually incorrect. You may disagree with me ideologically, but except for the parts that's clearly MY OPINION, you never tell me where I'm wrong. I made a good-faith effort to keep the facts straight and to clearly distinguish my ideology.
in Afghanistan we have 20% literacy rate
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 43 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
Elite Rising Star #16 - Day 1
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft409
Nina 149
Ketroc 55
RuFF_SC2 26
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 789
ggaemo 147
Sexy 46
JulyZerg 13
Icarus 7
ivOry 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1144
NeuroSwarm94
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 346
Other Games
summit1g13145
shahzam1031
JimRising 725
Day[9].tv458
C9.Mang0213
Maynarde139
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1628
BasetradeTV28
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 63
• davetesta49
• practicex 40
• Mapu2
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6514
• Rush726
• Stunt103
Other Games
• Day9tv458
Upcoming Events
OSC
7h 3m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
8h 3m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
12h 3m
PiGosaur Monday
21h 3m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 8h
Stormgate Nexus
1d 11h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 13h
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
RotterdaM Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.