EPTI would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 856
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zatic
Zurich15359 Posts
I would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22051 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11716 Posts
On August 27 2025 00:11 Gorsameth wrote: Even if there was it wouldn't matter, Nato did not expand east, everyone west of Russia fled to safety. And Russia repeatedly proved them right for doing so. It is really interesting. Every country that has a border with Russia is either in Nato or being constantly bullied by Russia. Ukraine made the mistake of waiting too long, which is why they are in this mess now. Probably because they thought that Russia might be their friends. Others were smarter. | ||
KwarK
United States43468 Posts
On August 26 2025 23:46 Gorsameth wrote: While this exchange is wonderful to watch, maybe turn it down just a little bit at the end there Kwark  No. In fact I'll go one further. The next time we get a Russian jumping into this topic I'll skip pages of debate and jump immediately to "Fun fact, did you know Russians can't actually evaluate factual statements, they can only deflect and project. Watch what happens when the Russian reads this post." No foreplay, all money shot. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5739 Posts
On August 26 2025 16:36 spets1 wrote: theres no point in trying to present information to some people in here, even if you show them black and point at it, they will still say its white What information have you presented? By your own admission, you've only presented stories, which should not be scrutinized in terms of factuality. That is not information. Your continuous refusal to engage with my counterpoints and to answer my questions tells me you're not interested in learning anything or even having a debate. You're here solely to spread Russian propaganda, as has every Kremlin shill from the start of this thread. On August 26 2025 22:37 spets1 wrote: This post above and other posts shows that you're a one dimensional person unaware of themself and completely unable to see what's in front of them. By being so condescending and only throwing out insults you show your low class and bigotry At least I'm able to see both sides of the conflict you on the other hand claim one side is completely clean when there's mountain of evidence staring you in the face. You're exactly the person, dog that you're desrcribing The irony of this post... xD On August 26 2025 15:47 EEk1TwEEk wrote: Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014? So it was Russia who overthrew the elected government in 2014? Wow, you really are a Kamala voter War in Donbas, you clown. On August 26 2025 23:05 Falling wrote: What mountains of evidence? You have provided none. When challenged on the specifics of your claim, you declined saying So all we've gotten is assertion after unsupported assertion of the same exact narrative we've heard a hundred times. You've said nothing new that Putin supporting Russians and Putin stans in the West have repeated ad naseum. You are incapable of understanding that we do, in fact, understand both perspectives. We are perfectly capable of understanding that Germany opened a new front because of lebensraum and at the same time say there was no reason to invade the east, that lebensraum is a crummy perspective. And furthermore, because German leadership adopted lebensraum into their belief system, it sufficiently explains the cause of the wars in the east without 'both siding' Poland and USSR as needing to be equally culpable for the invasion that happened to them. I'm afraid that analogy will go right over his head. Kremlin's current narrative is that, indeed, Hitler was justified in invading because Poland provoked Germany. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1058 Posts
Not only that, he's a part of a libertarian clique which is basically the libertarian version of tankies, anti-interventionist guys who blame the US for everything. Of course, as we Croats would say, even a blind chicken will find an occasional grain, so he can be right on Israel policy or opposition to Iraq, but he's dead wrong here. He starts with a false premise that what happened in 2014 was an American/CIA/Biden/Obama coup because that's their orthodoxy. If you start from there, you can continue ranting how horrible that was to do to people etc. I, who know many Ukrainians and work with them on a daily basis, had refugees in my house after the war started and heard their stories, know that is bullshit. These people are incapable of understanding the world outside their myopic view that no nations other then a few big powers has any sovereignty, no group of people can rise and overthrow their government unless assisted from the outside. Again, this is insulting and pure fiction, just like the prosecution of Russians in Donbas is, Putin got pissed that Ukrainians threw his puppet out, he took Crimea as soon as he could and he sent people like Igor Girkin to Donbas to stir this shit up, then he sent his little green men and eventually it was mask off. This is all very well documented, even in their words. They are proud of it. You guys just choose to ignore that. You guys can try to sell this as a popular uprising and oppression of Russians until you are blue in your face, you can pretend like diplomats talking about their preferences is some sort of a coup the grace proof, but unlike Dave Smith, Joe Rogan or any of you guys who bought into this shit there is so much proof and evidence of how the EuroMaidan happened, of how Russians executed their well known tactics (see Transistria) etc. that these little things that you keep linking and thinking they are somehow proof of anything simply pale in comparison. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11716 Posts
On August 27 2025 00:33 maybenexttime wrote: What information have you presented? By your own admission, you've only presented stories, which should not be scrutinized in terms of factuality. That is not information. Your continuous refusal to engage with my counterpoints and to answer my questions tells me you're not interested in learning anything or even having a debate. You're here solely to spread Russian propaganda, as has every Kremlin shill from the start of this thread. The irony of this post... xD War in Donbas, you clown. I'm afraid that analogy will go right over his head. Kremlin's current narrative is that, indeed, Hitler was justified in invading because Poland provoked Germany. Damn Poland, always Danzig around and shaking their booty. It was really their own fault for wearing such revealing clothes. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5739 Posts
On August 27 2025 01:10 Simberto wrote: Damn Poland, always Danzig around and shaking their booty. It was really their own fault for wearing such revealing clothes. That, too, won't work. Rape is endemic in Russia. You get raped by the police, by the prison guards, fellow inmates, and fellow soldiers when you're in the military. They also rape Ukrainian PoWs. A champion of conservative values, Russia is. ;-) But the pun was good. ;-p | ||
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KwarK
United States43468 Posts
It's a thing that Russians (and other similar parties) do where they don't actually say the whole argument, they say the first half of it and then imply that there is a second half which is left to the reader to complete. There's no defensible causal link between the alleged coup and the annexation of Crimea. Plenty of places have coups every year, that doesn't mean you can invade them and annex their land, especially after signing a treaty specifically stating that you absolutely would not do that. But they just skip the part they can't defend, the invasion, and leave the justification hanging. The other fun thing they do is just list a bunch of different and contradictory truths. If you ask a regular person what their justification is then they'll explain it to you because they know what it is and they believe in it. X happened, therefore I did Y. Russia doesn't do that because they don't understand that truths aren't things you can pick and choose. Putin will legitimately stand there and say "we did it because of X, or, if for some reason you don't like X, how about Y" when X and Y are contradictory. You're invited to pick your own truth. Maybe it's NATO expansion, maybe it's Ukrainian Nazis, maybe it's the coup, maybe it's Russians being murdered in the Donbas, maybe Ukraine doesn't even exist and was always Russia, maybe Ukraine actually attacked Russia first. Ukraine can be too strong, too weak, incapable of choosing, making the wrong choice, legitimate, illegitimate, dominated by progressive Jews, dominated by Nazis, all at the same time. The population can be essentially Russians and they can be hostile Russophobic khokhols. A regular person can't make the Russian argument because a regular person would feel compelled to accept one truth and that acceptance would eliminate the others. But in Russia they recognize that the truth is something that you can simply pick from a menu and so they offer as many truths as you can imagine, all at the same time. They simply don't recognize the contradictions because they don't understand the idea of an immutable truth. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17610 Posts
On August 27 2025 00:07 zatic wrote: To everyone's surprise the 20 min video provides zero new information and it's the same drivel we have heard for a decade now. I would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though. I think it was pretty clear that the video isn't worth watching by it being a video from the Joe Rogan podcast. Not that it isn't entertaining or anything but bringing that stuff up as some sort of evidence or factual information is not a good idea when JR constantly hosts conspiracy theories, people trying to convince us that 1 * 1 = 2, aliens are behind everything, reptilians are running the government etc. Even if by some miracle you had a credible source of information hosted on JR podcast it would be immediately undermined by association with all the other outlandish stuff he's been presenting for years. Don't get me wrong, I like some wild conspiracy theories or lunatic claims from time to time for some fun and entertainment and JR is the place to go for those. I know better though than to go looking there for anything relevant to any serious discussion. | ||
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0x64
Finland4601 Posts
On August 26 2025 15:58 EEk1TwEEk wrote: No battle, not a single person died, just a referendum with 98% of ppl returning to Russia Anyways, watch the video please, you can't defend your position unless you listen to what opposing to your argument person is saying. Ukrainian officer Serhiy Kokurin begs to differ, he died, he was the first to be shot in 2014, other died as well. Dumb russian, entering other country with guns and complaining people don't like them, I'd like to see your house invaded by gunmen and see how you'd feel about that. | ||
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SC-Shield
Bulgaria835 Posts
On August 27 2025 00:19 KwarK wrote: No. In fact I'll go one further. The next time we get a Russian jumping into this topic I'll skip pages of debate and jump immediately to "Fun fact, did you know Russians can't actually evaluate factual statements, they can only deflect and project. Watch what happens when the Russian reads this post." No foreplay, all money shot. There is a term for that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5739 Posts
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KwarK
United States43468 Posts
The stupid Soviets were taught that what the state said was true and they accepted that. The smart Soviets were too smart to accept that what the state said was true because they could see that it wasn't. Those ones were taught that nothing is true. This reddit post explains it pretty well. Take note at 3:25. This is how basically every Putin supporter reacts. This is what Kremlin propaganda has taught people, they all react more or less like this. I see a lot of comments here thinking that Putin would lose power if he was exposed as a liar. That's not true. They know he lies. He lets people know he lies. It's openly cynical. For instance, Putin didn't seriously expect anyone to believe him when he said their invasion force in Crimea with unmarked uniforms were “probably Crimean self-defense forces who bought their uniforms at a local store”. Their propaganda is more sophisticated than trying to convince people they're truthful, it's to undermine the very notion of truth and its value. Basically, "Everybody's leaders lie, but you Russians at least know that your leaders lie. Those naive Westerners actually believe that stuff." That's the subtext with these 'jokes'. In a world where truth is impossible to know, and politics has nothing to do with facts, you might as well either choose to support the version of reality you prefer, or just ignore politics completely. Either way, Putin wins. Their aim has not been to convince people Putin is the best ruler on the basis of democratic principles, but to destroy those very principles. Namely the idea that individuals actually have any political power, that facts and free debate can and should form the basis of public opinion, and that leaders should follow that opinion, that there should be rule of law that applies equally to all. And so on. In Russia, the leadership tells people what the 'facts' are and what their opinions should be (should they bother having one), everyone is not equal under the law, the law is merely a tool of those with power to be wielded over those without. Moreover, they tell the people (and believe it themselves), that this is how the world really works, has always worked and always will. They tell people this is also how so-called 'democracies' work as well - they are all completely manipulated behind the scenes by cabals of elites. It's only because they are lying hypocrites that their leaders pretend otherwise. If they are, on occasion, forced to change some political stance due to public opinion, it is only because they are weak, not because they believe in democracy. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 27 2025 05:51 maybenexttime wrote: Whataboutism is a deliberate tactic. What KwarK's describing seems more like a mental deficit of some sort. Like they're actually incapable of doing that. Yeah, it’s like are you actively trying to bullshit me, or is this actually how you construct your own worldview? If it’s the latter, well nobody needs to do much more work, people are now primed to bullshit themselves, and not even know they’re doing it. Also whataboutery usually takes the form of ‘I know x is bad, but what about y?’, not just increasingly preposterous denials about x not even being bad in the first place. | ||
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Falling
Canada11387 Posts
On August 27 2025 00:58 Jankisa wrote: The problem with Dave Smith's whole notion is that he, just like Joe Rogan, especially at the time of that interview was very, very firmly engaged in the process of Trump's re-election. Not only that, he's a part of a libertarian clique which is basically the libertarian version of tankies, anti-interventionist guys who blame the US for everything. Of course, as we Croats would say, even a blind chicken will find an occasional grain, so he can be right on Israel policy or opposition to Iraq, but he's dead wrong here. Dave Smith is also part of that libertarian group that was arguing that Winston Churchill was the real villain of the war (WWII). Now, he will be quick to add that Hitler was also a villain, and then also backtrack, saying it was hyperbole. However, the only way I can see a person making such a claim without being a full on Nazi apologist is that they are so anti-intervention on behalf of Ukraine that they backwards rationalize everything else in history to try and have a 'consistent' worldview. I think it is no coincidence that there has been a sudden and precipitous rise in villainizing Churchill's stand against Hitler amongst the anti-interventionists. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On August 27 2025 09:28 Falling wrote: Dave Smith is also part of that libertarian group that was arguing that Winston Churchill was the real villain of the war (WWII). Now, he will be quick to add that Hitler was also a villain, and then also backtrack, saying it was hyperbole. However, the only way I can see a person making such a claim without being a full on Nazi apologist is that they are so anti-intervention on behalf of Ukraine that they backwards rationalize everything else in history to try and have a 'consistent' worldview. I think it is no coincidence that there has been a sudden and precipitous rise in villainizing Churchill's stand against Hitler amongst the anti-interventionists. What is their argument there? I’ve heard many anti-Churchill arguments in the past, many that seem to have validity to me that he’s a bit of a monster (India for example), but his anti-Hitler stance isn’t generally one I’ve run into. | ||
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Falling
Canada11387 Posts
They then talk about how many people died during WWII and that they are anti-people dying. So by choosing to fight Hitler, more people died I guess? (You can see the Ukraine argument lurking here- if only Ukraine would surrender, people would stop dying. The West is evil for propping up Ukraine and so the West is pro-death.) | ||
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KwarK
United States43468 Posts
On August 27 2025 09:59 Falling wrote: Oh, there is lots of things to criticize Churchill on and that's nothing new. But they specifically blame him for causing WWII. In their minds, Churchill escalated and I guess, he should have let Poland fall? Dave Smith very specifically rips a quote out of context from Churchill's historical memoirs. Like, completely flips Churchill's meaning. They then talk about how many people died during WWII and that they are anti-people dying. So by choosing to fight Hitler, more people died I guess? (You can see the Ukraine argument lurking here- if only Ukraine would surrender, people would stop dying. The West is evil for propping up Ukraine and so the West is pro-death.) Falling, Churchill wasn’t PM during that time. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18191 Posts
On August 27 2025 10:22 KwarK wrote: Falling, Churchill wasn’t PM during that time. Maybe Dave Smith doesn't know that. Wouldn't surprise me over bit. | ||
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