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On August 27 2025 00:07 zatic wrote: To everyone's surprise the 20 min video provides zero new information and it's the same drivel we have heard for a decade now.
I would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though.
I think it was pretty clear that the video isn't worth watching by it being a video from the Joe Rogan podcast. Not that it isn't entertaining or anything but bringing that stuff up as some sort of evidence or factual information is not a good idea when JR constantly hosts conspiracy theories, people trying to convince us that 1 * 1 = 2, aliens are behind everything, reptilians are running the government etc.
Even if by some miracle you had a credible source of information hosted on JR podcast it would be immediately undermined by association with all the other outlandish stuff he's been presenting for years.
Don't get me wrong, I like some wild conspiracy theories or lunatic claims from time to time for some fun and entertainment and JR is the place to go for those. I know better though than to go looking there for anything relevant to any serious discussion.
I listen to some Joe Rogan because he does by far the best MMA interviews. And the thing with him is when ever he gets questioned about the misinformation he spews his response is always pretty similar. Do not take anything you hear here as fact, we are comedians talking about shit we find interesting, we are not experts.
I get this is a cop out because tons of people take it as fact, as this conversation showed. But people like Eek need to realize that if they want to take what JR says as fact, then do it. He is a comedian, so is Dave Smith. Their only goal is to be interesting, they play fast and loose with the facts. If you hear something on there, go out and find actual sources and check it out. There is plenty of take downs online.
The ancient peoples ones are always interesting because far back history and places like Gobekli Tepe have lots of mystery behind them. Who knows what is exactly true. But if you treat the guy who is Joe speaking with total authority about this with out finding out why 99% of the archeologists disagree you ahve a very high chance of being very wrong.
Like maybe the spinx was built by aliens, or maybe they have figured out levitation, or any of the other theories I've heard on the pod cast. But do not treat it as fact, because even JR has dissenting opinions on these things so if you trust each guest implicitly your head will explode.
Hell Joe Rogan just came out and said he doesn't believe the 2020 election was stolen and that Trump was up to some shit on the Epstein list.
He is not certain on anything, his podcast is not science or fact, its wild entertainment.
Its an attitude that I don't think can work anymore or belong in the 21st century. Thanks to the internet and social media a bunch of people talking about literally anything in a basement can and does reach millions of people. "We're just talking, no one should take us serious" shouldn't exist anymore. Your responsible for the shit you put out into the world.
I mostly agree, but I do think it is a very strong argument that if the person you are sources as fact says, don't treat this as fact I'm just a comedian, you should listen to him.
If people had common sense the world wouldnt be in the state it is today.
sadly.
How do you want to find common sense if in the US for example 40% of kids and over 20% of adults are functionally illiterate? In EU it isn't as bad but it's not that much better either.
What this means is that every 5th adult person in the US won't be able to understand a more complex sentence, let alone a whole paragraph (they'll be maybe able to read it but not grasp the full meaning of it).
It wouldn't be a huge deal if the 80% literate people vote for reasonably competent politicians and the 20% illiterate voted for clowns, problem is the clowns are now getting just above or below 50% because they're duping millions of people who ought to know better.
On August 27 2025 00:07 zatic wrote: To everyone's surprise the 20 min video provides zero new information and it's the same drivel we have heard for a decade now.
I would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though.
I think it was pretty clear that the video isn't worth watching by it being a video from the Joe Rogan podcast. Not that it isn't entertaining or anything but bringing that stuff up as some sort of evidence or factual information is not a good idea when JR constantly hosts conspiracy theories, people trying to convince us that 1 * 1 = 2, aliens are behind everything, reptilians are running the government etc.
Even if by some miracle you had a credible source of information hosted on JR podcast it would be immediately undermined by association with all the other outlandish stuff he's been presenting for years.
Don't get me wrong, I like some wild conspiracy theories or lunatic claims from time to time for some fun and entertainment and JR is the place to go for those. I know better though than to go looking there for anything relevant to any serious discussion.
I listen to some Joe Rogan because he does by far the best MMA interviews. And the thing with him is when ever he gets questioned about the misinformation he spews his response is always pretty similar. Do not take anything you hear here as fact, we are comedians talking about shit we find interesting, we are not experts.
I get this is a cop out because tons of people take it as fact, as this conversation showed. But people like Eek need to realize that if they want to take what JR says as fact, then do it. He is a comedian, so is Dave Smith. Their only goal is to be interesting, they play fast and loose with the facts. If you hear something on there, go out and find actual sources and check it out. There is plenty of take downs online.
The ancient peoples ones are always interesting because far back history and places like Gobekli Tepe have lots of mystery behind them. Who knows what is exactly true. But if you treat the guy who is Joe speaking with total authority about this with out finding out why 99% of the archeologists disagree you ahve a very high chance of being very wrong.
Like maybe the spinx was built by aliens, or maybe they have figured out levitation, or any of the other theories I've heard on the pod cast. But do not treat it as fact, because even JR has dissenting opinions on these things so if you trust each guest implicitly your head will explode.
Hell Joe Rogan just came out and said he doesn't believe the 2020 election was stolen and that Trump was up to some shit on the Epstein list.
He is not certain on anything, his podcast is not science or fact, its wild entertainment.
Its an attitude that I don't think can work anymore or belong in the 21st century. Thanks to the internet and social media a bunch of people talking about literally anything in a basement can and does reach millions of people. "We're just talking, no one should take us serious" shouldn't exist anymore. Your responsible for the shit you put out into the world.
I mostly agree, but I do think it is a very strong argument that if the person you are sources as fact says, don't treat this as fact I'm just a comedian, you should listen to him.
Yeah, but as always, the problem is that not everyone hears everything. There are going to be a lot of people who hear Rogan, but not his disclaimer that he is just constantly spouting bullshit with random insane people.
I don't think it should be that easy to cop out of the responsibility. You are responsible for what you produce, and the effect it has on the world.
Yep, but now you are armed with the information to readily confront the people you talk to with a counter point that they have a much stronger chance of listening too than being called mush brain idiots.
I mean in theory, that isn’t the way things have gone for like a decade+
On August 29 2025 07:06 LightSpectra wrote: It wouldn't be a huge deal if the 80% literate people vote for reasonably competent politicians and the 20% illiterate voted for clowns, problem is the clowns are now getting just above or below 50% because they're duping millions of people who ought to know better.
That's actually the effect of social media pushing people further and further into a specific direction so the votes are getting closer and closer to 50% (which is the worst possible scenario because then no matter who wins half of a country will be dissatisfied). We basically lost the center/undecided who in the past could swing the votes one way or another.
Gigachad Ukrainian soldier crawled for 5 days back to ukrainian-controlled territory after Russians slit his throat and threw him into a pit. Also, more reports on how Russians treat the POWs, gouging out eyes, cutting off lips and genitals, throwing in the pits.
On August 29 2025 07:06 LightSpectra wrote: It wouldn't be a huge deal if the 80% literate people vote for reasonably competent politicians and the 20% illiterate voted for clowns, problem is the clowns are now getting just above or below 50% because they're duping millions of people who ought to know better.
It probably was what the neoliberals expected would happen; sure their policies are unpopular, but given that the other side is insane, people will be reasonable enough to vote for them even though they don't like how they're being ruled, and you circumvent democracy that way. In reality this never happens, people are just dissatisfied in general so the main opposition party is a huge favourite every election.
On August 27 2025 00:07 zatic wrote: To everyone's surprise the 20 min video provides zero new information and it's the same drivel we have heard for a decade now.
I would love to see the written assurance against NATO expansion which everyone present at the time says doesn't exist though.
I think it was pretty clear that the video isn't worth watching by it being a video from the Joe Rogan podcast. Not that it isn't entertaining or anything but bringing that stuff up as some sort of evidence or factual information is not a good idea when JR constantly hosts conspiracy theories, people trying to convince us that 1 * 1 = 2, aliens are behind everything, reptilians are running the government etc.
Even if by some miracle you had a credible source of information hosted on JR podcast it would be immediately undermined by association with all the other outlandish stuff he's been presenting for years.
Don't get me wrong, I like some wild conspiracy theories or lunatic claims from time to time for some fun and entertainment and JR is the place to go for those. I know better though than to go looking there for anything relevant to any serious discussion.
I listen to some Joe Rogan because he does by far the best MMA interviews. And the thing with him is when ever he gets questioned about the misinformation he spews his response is always pretty similar. Do not take anything you hear here as fact, we are comedians talking about shit we find interesting, we are not experts.
I get this is a cop out because tons of people take it as fact, as this conversation showed. But people like Eek need to realize that if they want to take what JR says as fact, then do it. He is a comedian, so is Dave Smith. Their only goal is to be interesting, they play fast and loose with the facts. If you hear something on there, go out and find actual sources and check it out. There is plenty of take downs online.
The ancient peoples ones are always interesting because far back history and places like Gobekli Tepe have lots of mystery behind them. Who knows what is exactly true. But if you treat the guy who is Joe speaking with total authority about this with out finding out why 99% of the archeologists disagree you ahve a very high chance of being very wrong.
Like maybe the spinx was built by aliens, or maybe they have figured out levitation, or any of the other theories I've heard on the pod cast. But do not treat it as fact, because even JR has dissenting opinions on these things so if you trust each guest implicitly your head will explode.
Hell Joe Rogan just came out and said he doesn't believe the 2020 election was stolen and that Trump was up to some shit on the Epstein list.
He is not certain on anything, his podcast is not science or fact, its wild entertainment.
Its an attitude that I don't think can work anymore or belong in the 21st century. Thanks to the internet and social media a bunch of people talking about literally anything in a basement can and does reach millions of people. "We're just talking, no one should take us serious" shouldn't exist anymore. Your responsible for the shit you put out into the world.
I mostly agree, but I do think it is a very strong argument that if the person you are sources as fact says, don't treat this as fact I'm just a comedian, you should listen to him.
If people had common sense the world wouldnt be in the state it is today.
sadly.
How do you want to find common sense if in the US for example 40% of kids and over 20% of adults are functionally illiterate? In EU it isn't as bad but it's not that much better either.
What this means is that every 5th adult person in the US won't be able to understand a more complex sentence, let alone a whole paragraph (they'll be maybe able to read it but not grasp the full meaning of it).
Education system needs a reform to teach critical thinking, especially when it comes to reading information on the internet. There are people who don't question what they read on the internet. Facebook became really popular here when I was finishing high school, so you can't expect tech dinosaurs (teachers) to teach you critical thinking online, but there is no excuse nowadays. Social media and mostly Facebook are incredibly toxic as they keep showing you posts you spend time reading, which can put you on an information bubble. Their algorithm thinks since you read something, maybe it's "relevant" to keep showing you that and this doesn't help very much to hear other opinions. Instead, Facebook promotes confirmation bias in my opinion.
Information bias is one thing. Let's not think illiterates opinions are any less important than literate.
Ask your average people in a remote village if it's a good idea to get water from your enemy, and they'd tell you no. That's what EU did with their reliance on Russia gas.
Ask them also if it's a good idea to kill their own cows for the greater good and buy milk from China. That is what EU is doing with plenty of the sectors.
All the online safety act from UK etc. Why isn't the media blaming these policies from literate elites?
Elitism etc is a much bigger problem than anything else IMO. Mass media just strengthens them
The whole underpinning of the EU, originally the ECSC, is that it’s a great idea to build mutual interdependency with former enemies and walk the road to prosperity together. You think France and Germany are natural friends? More so than Russia and Germany?
But you force them to work together and build together and pretty soon they don’t want to smash things anymore because the things they’d be smashing were built by them. It worked really well within the EU and pretty well with Russia. The dependence goes both ways. Russia can threaten to pull the energy pipeline from Germany but Germany can just reply “ok, but who are you going to sell to instead of us when the pipeline goes here”. Germany can equally point out how many domestic Russian industries withered since Russia was flooded with German euros and Russia spent those euros buying German products. It made Russian expansionism extremely irrational and damaging to Russia, any reasonable Russian government would have preferred to partner with Ukraine than destroy it. It failed because Russia is ruled by an emperor who sits in a bubble surrounded by “yes” men and fears for his legacy.
That’s your problem, you literally don’t know anything. You present these as hypotheticals when they are in fact the very real and very deliberate outcomes of a long standing policy you know nothing about.
The whole underpinning of the EU, originally the ECSC, is that it’s a great idea to build mutual interdependency with former enemies and walk the road to prosperity together. You think France and Germany are natural friends? More so than Russia and Germany?
But you force them to work together and build together and pretty soon they don’t want to smash things anymore because the things they’d be smashing were built by them. It worked really well within the EU and pretty well with Russia. The dependence goes both ways. Russia can threaten to pull the energy pipeline from Germany but Germany can just reply “ok, but who are you going to sell to instead of us when the pipeline goes here”. Germany can equally point out how many domestic Russian industries withered since Russia was flooded with German euros and Russia spent those euros buying German products. It made Russian expansionism extremely irrational and damaging to Russia, any reasonable Russian government would have preferred to partner with Ukraine than destroy it. It failed because Russia is ruled by an emperor who sits in a bubble surrounded by “yes” men and fears for his legacy.
That’s your problem, you literally don’t know anything. You present these as hypotheticals when they are in fact the very real and very deliberate outcomes of a long standing policy you know nothing about.
Not sure where you get your confidence from. countries can coexist and develope without growing dependencies. Do you need more examples? How did that work out for China and the expected peaceful integration with Democratic values? Do you think this DECADES long policy is hypothetical?
I know you might consider illiterates as subclass but come on.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
Kwark seems to think entangling economies would bring countries together including ideologies. I am telling you/him the US and EU literally funded the rise of nations with opposite ideologies, and self sabotage manufacturing etc. Nor Russia got closer to the EU.
This is called a counter example btw.
Hong Kong had a bunch of politicians who thought Hong Kong would bring China closer to the Democratic values too, until 2019 happened and they all got a big slap to wake up to reality.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
Kwark seems to think entangling economies would bring countries together including ideologies. I am telling you/him the US and EU literally funded the rise of nations with opposite ideologies, and self sabotage manufacturing etc. Nor Russia got closer to the EU.
This is called a counter example btw.
Hong Kong had a bunch of politicians who thought Hong Kong would bring China closer to the Democratic values too, until 2019 happened and they all got a big slap to wake up to reality.
You're still not addressing the point. This entangling of economies worked for Germany and France, France and the UK, Poland and Germany, etc. It seemed to work for Russia as well initially, under Yeltsin and during Putin's first term. Putin even helped the US establish military bases in Central Asia during the War on Terror.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Small digression, but I'm in HK right now. Very interesting city. A lot of good, but also a lot of decrepit and old. Basically Cyberpunk without flying cars. Wish I could spend more time here.
It's strange to me, however, how you chose to bring up their relationship with China. While their relationship with England is what made them flourish to begin with. If economic relationships between countries everywhere can flourish, except everything that touches China or Russia, perhaps the problem lies with them?
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
Kwark seems to think entangling economies would bring countries together including ideologies. I am telling you/him the US and EU literally funded the rise of nations with opposite ideologies, and self sabotage manufacturing etc. Nor Russia got closer to the EU.
This is called a counter example btw.
Hong Kong had a bunch of politicians who thought Hong Kong would bring China closer to the Democratic values too, until 2019 happened and they all got a big slap to wake up to reality.
I really don't know why you're trying to bring the topic of China here. It's a prime example of having your economy deeply entangled with your adversaries and thus preventing hostilities. China is not a self-reliant country, they import 40% of their energy needs, a lot of their food and their huge growth is mostly tied to them producing stuff for others. Why do you think they've been posturing and threatening to take back Taiwan for years without anything to show for it? It's their regime that needs to appeal to the citizens somehow by projecting strength but so far it's all been just for show because they know the moment they actually start a war their economy goes to shambles. They saw what happened to Russia with the sanctions and they fear what would happen to them in such case because unlike Russia they are way more dependent on imports (Russia was huge fuel and food exporter, China is huge importer in both of those sectors which are the most critical). Sure, they have a lot of factories and manufacturing power but it's all for naught when you can't get coal for your power plants so your factories can't run at all.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
Kwark seems to think entangling economies would bring countries together including ideologies. I am telling you/him the US and EU literally funded the rise of nations with opposite ideologies, and self sabotage manufacturing etc. Nor Russia got closer to the EU.
This is called a counter example btw.
Hong Kong had a bunch of politicians who thought Hong Kong would bring China closer to the Democratic values too, until 2019 happened and they all got a big slap to wake up to reality.
You're still not addressing the point. This entangling of economies worked for Germany and France, France and the UK, Poland and Germany, etc. It seemed to work for Russia as well initially, under Yeltsin and during Putin's first term. Putin even helped the US establish military bases in Central Asia during the War on Terror.
I am addressing the point.
When did Russia invade Crimea? When did China kidnap Hong Kong book writers? Did the trade increase or decrease after them?
While China has been working to reduce dependencies on western allies for past couple of decades (and openly so), they still get prestige treatment for manufacturing from supporters like you guys.
From payment network, banning big tech, buying up foreign firms to take key know how, buying up ports, literally building a base in South China sea etc.
There are still people arguing against chip control or Ericsson against ban on huawei. Frankly these people idea of progress mean very little to me.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Maybe you should go back to the chatbot thing, because at least it was coherent. Explain to me how a whataboutism to Hong Kong relates to Germany and Russia entangling their economies.
Kwark seems to think entangling economies would bring countries together including ideologies. I am telling you/him the US and EU literally funded the rise of nations with opposite ideologies, and self sabotage manufacturing etc. Nor Russia got closer to the EU.
This is called a counter example btw.
Hong Kong had a bunch of politicians who thought Hong Kong would bring China closer to the Democratic values too, until 2019 happened and they all got a big slap to wake up to reality.
I really don't know why you're trying to bring the topic of China here. It's a prime example of having your economy deeply entangled with your adversaries and thus preventing hostilities. China is not a self-reliant country, they import 40% of their energy needs, a lot of their food and their huge growth is mostly tied to them producing stuff for others. Why do you think they've been posturing and threatening to take back Taiwan for years without anything to show for it? It's their regime that needs to appeal to the citizens somehow by projecting strength but so far it's all been just for show because they know the moment they actually start a war their economy goes to shambles. They saw what happened to Russia with the sanctions and they fear what would happen to them in such case because unlike Russia they are way more dependent on imports (Russia was huge fuel and food exporter, China is huge importer in both of those sectors which are the most critical). Sure, they have a lot of factories and manufacturing power but it's all for naught when you can't get coal for your power plants so your factories can't run at all.
China has been working to be self reliant for years, from payment network to selling to Africa/middle East via one belt one road. They blocked off big tech and replicated it in China, precisely because they understand what are strategic resources and importance.
And now Europe with their incredible emission target is self sabotaging their automotive industries, anti trump/elon crowds are pumping BYD etc Chinese EV sales.
Yes energy demand is high because China has plenty of energy demands, doesn't mean they are reliant on import because they are happy to. They are needed because China is getting all the manufacturing leeway in emission etc
They haven't invade Taiwan (who's smart enough not to buy energy or key strategic resources from China) is because China is winning long term. They don't need to attack Taiwan to bully it off the world stage, while catching up in military and global geological influence.
On September 01 2025 13:38 KwarK wrote: I think he's using the chatbot to reply again.
Mate, i lived in Hong Kong, which is literally the result of decade long China policy all fall apart. You literally funded the rise of a nation with an entirely different ideologies. Not too far off in the case of india neither. Maybe that's your problem, you think
Small digression, but I'm in HK right now. Very interesting city. A lot of good, but also a lot of decrepit and old. Basically Cyberpunk without flying cars. Wish I could spend more time here.
It's strange to me, however, how you chose to bring up their relationship with China. While their relationship with England is what made them flourish to begin with. If economic relationships between countries everywhere can flourish, except everything that touches China or Russia, perhaps the problem lies with them?
Hong Kong has changed a lot, and many cyberpunk elements are lost like neon light. It's still pretty cool. But if you want to experience a futuristic city, Nanjing is pretty up there. I remember a factory manager paying his sandwich via scanning his face in a convenient store. The roads were strangely quiet with EVs. The insanely bright RED LEDs on skyscrapers and pro CCP messages etc.
Regarding Hong Kong growth, it grew because British didn't treat it like a hostile city like some other colonies, it had British laws and generally my grandfather generation could make huge money.
Reason is Hong Kong is the middle man for US or Europe countries that want to make use of China resources, but take out the hard work in legal, quality, culture.
Some of the stories I heard from my parents are unbelievable, like a couple millions dollars (at the time) from Europe or US brand would go through a company with less than 20 staff, and they would make 80% margin off that.
The last place I worked at, the owner swam to Hong Kong and selling stuff on the street when he's a kid, and he eventually founded a company with over 150 staff.
Anyways yes, I would agree it's the issue of the other parties, the difference is at some point you gotta know when to stop funding their growth.
In the case of China it's too late now, and Taiwan has been warning about it for how long? The current downfall of Hong Kong is just the result of decades of good will by western nations and subsequently some Hong Kong politicians.
EPT
ouble Post* 
