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On February 20 2025 04:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 02:17 maybenexttime wrote:On February 20 2025 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land... If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025. Could you be a little bit more vague? I'm saying that if Europe makes a plea to the international community to rein in Russia (ensure Ukraine's sovereignty) and in exchange they will sign on to material efforts to rein in the US (could be pretty minimal, like formal condemnations and specific sanctions against individuals in reality) I believe they'd have more success than their current intuitions lead them to believe Who’s joining them in that endeavour?
You have to read the responses to your questions.
On February 17 2025 07:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2025 07:38 WombaT wrote:On February 17 2025 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 17 2025 06:16 Jones313 wrote:On February 16 2025 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 17:12 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:38 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:17 Elroi wrote:
[quote]
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long. Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so. Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby. Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us? If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain. If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's. If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire. I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever. Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China. No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans. Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time. Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What? + Show Spoiler +It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant?
- go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily?
- impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up. Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line. I did elaborate a bit. I don't think I would use "serves you right" but I might use "You reap what you sow". As far as us in the US, I'm confident our centrists/libs/Dems will immediately collaborate with the fascists to preempt any civil war and you'll see them here insisting anyone opposing their complicity as unreasonable and worse. I try to maintain my revolutionary optimism, but I have to admit, my probability cloud of successfully staving off fascism isn't very dense in the US. It goes up slightly if the Europe steps up and joins a world that'd be ready and willing to join them in sanctioning the US while rapidly increasing lines of trade that circumvent US interests to fill the voids. Who are Europe joining here? + Show Spoiler +It’s not like huge chunks of the world are bastions of fighting for actual points of principle even if it’s to their own detriment.
Not that Europe is either, but it’s about the best you get such is the state of things. At least some parts of it.
Hey it’d be a nice show of balls, I just think it’s exceedingly unlikely that both Europe ever attempts such a thing, but also that they drag many others along with them.
Aside from my general pessimism there, it’s not really something a lot of Europe is all that well-positioned to do. I think there’s a quite understandable assumption that much of Europe is economically like a mini-US, with similar economies just not as big. It’s not quite the case in many instances. ‘We’re sanctioning the US, come join and we’ll make it worth your while with tasty deals and increased links’ isn’t necessarily a carrot much of Europe can actually dangle. There's already basically ubiquitous ostensible opposition to the US's embargo on Cuba and the US's support for Israel's illegal settlements (nevermind the ongoing genocide). Seems a good place to start. Put some teeth on that opposition while taking China up on coordinating the Belt and Road with the EU's Global Gateway project. It's not a silver bullet solution, it's just a shot across the bow with some positive/functional side effects.
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Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards
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United States42752 Posts
0% chance that the US honours article 5 if the baltics are invaded. NATO dead. Russia wins Cold War.
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On February 20 2025 08:13 KwarK wrote:
0% chance that the US honours article 5 if the baltics are invaded. NATO dead. Russia wins Cold War.
While that is true, Europe is not yet lost. Also, ironically, America's deep polarization may turn out to be its strength as it's impossible the other half of the society will easily jump on the fascist train.
That said, Europe should be expanding its nuclear arsenal, decoupling from the US in terms of military production, and reverse engineering the shit out of the F-35s we've got from the US to jump-start our development of comparable jets.
I hope our societies warm up to the idea of sending our troops to non-frontline roles in Ukraine. That could be a major manpower boost, a serious morale boost for the Ukrainians and something that tips the scales in favor of Ukraine. With America openly joining the fascist axis, we really need to finish this war quickly.
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On February 20 2025 08:42 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 08:13 KwarK wrote:
0% chance that the US honours article 5 if the baltics are invaded. NATO dead. Russia wins Cold War. While that is true, Europe is not yet lost. Also, ironically, America's deep polarization may turn out to be its strength as it's impossible the other half of the society will easily jump on the fascist train. That said, Europe should be expanding its nuclear arsenal, decoupling from the US in terms of military production, and reverse engineering the shit out of the F-35s we've got from the US to jump-start our development of comparable jets. I hope our societies warm up to the idea of sending our troops to non-frontline roles in Ukraine. That could be a major manpower boost, a serious morale boost for the Ukrainians and something that tips the scales in favor of Ukraine. With America openly joining the fascist axis, we really need to finish this war quickly.
There are 2 current fighter jet projects in Europe already (one together with Japan). This will probably secure funding when they run over budget. Sweden is also in discussions if they should develop a new one or abandon fighter development/production.
If the trend holds the worst and likely outcome is nuclear proliferation. Trump scuppered the Iran deal last period and will likely push similar agendas this time. Stopping support for Ukraine would probably be the final nail in the coffin, showing that the world order enforced by the US with allies is no longer valid.
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An interesting thing I've heard discussed is starting to target the Russian shadow fleet. Impounding the ships on purpose instead of only when they wreck stuff due to poor maintenance. Cutting off Russian water trade would be a big escalation step and something that should be done if the current world order is breaking. If the enforcer of it is no longer there, why not show the consequences in a clear way?
At some point they have to shut down infrastructure or pump oil into lakes to keep it running. Rebuilding/reactivating that in Siberia would be very expensive and I doubt any company from outside Russia would want to engage in the activity considering nationalization of companies. Perhaps Chinese companies with government backing?
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Do we have any polls or other numbers related to how many Europeans would be fine with sending their soldiers to Ukraine during or after the war?
It doesn't seem fair to be angry at "spineless" European leaders if their people simply don't want a direct involvement in the conflict. Pro-Russian populists would be quick to exploit any deaths and could even win elections in some countries because of that.
Edit: Here's some copium from Boris Johnson, the man with mind control powers who somehow forced Ukraine into the war according to Russians.
Boris Johnson to Europe: Trump’s just trying to shock youFormer British prime minister says US president’s Ukraine comments are ‘not intended to be historically accurate’. Johnson, the former British prime minister who has been a staunch ally of Ukraine while also praising Trump, leapt to the U.S. president’s defense Wednesday. He challenged some of Trump’s latest claims — but said European nations should see them as part of a negotiating gambit rather than a serious position. Writing on X, Johnson said: “When are we Europeans going to stop being scandalised about Donald Trump and start helping him to end this war? “Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor. “Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945. Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4 percent. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.” But the former PM added: “Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.” https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-europe-donald-trump-shock/
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On February 20 2025 17:15 Sent. wrote:Do we have any polls or other numbers related to how many Europeans would be fine with sending their soldiers to Ukraine during or after the war? It doesn't seem fair to be angry at "spineless" European leaders if their people simply don't want a direct involvement in the conflict. Pro-Russian populists would be quick to exploit any deaths and could even win elections in some countries because of that. Edit: Here's some copium from Boris Johnson, the man with mind control powers who somehow forced Ukraine into the war according to Russians. Show nested quote +Boris Johnson to Europe: Trump’s just trying to shock youFormer British prime minister says US president’s Ukraine comments are ‘not intended to be historically accurate’. Johnson, the former British prime minister who has been a staunch ally of Ukraine while also praising Trump, leapt to the U.S. president’s defense Wednesday. He challenged some of Trump’s latest claims — but said European nations should see them as part of a negotiating gambit rather than a serious position. Writing on X, Johnson said: “When are we Europeans going to stop being scandalised about Donald Trump and start helping him to end this war? “Of course Ukraine didn’t start the war. You might as well say that America attacked Japan at Pearl Harbor. “Of course a country undergoing a violent invasion should not be staging elections. There was no general election in the UK from 1935 to 1945. Of course Zelenskyy’s ratings are not 4 percent. They are actually about the same as Trump’s.” But the former PM added: “Trump’s statements are not intended to be historically accurate but to shock Europeans into action.” https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-europe-donald-trump-shock/
No such polls. But there are a couple of others that are thereabout. Firstly, we can look at EUs own poll regarding Ukraine support, from March 2024 (Which is the last one they did), done through random sampling telephone questioning through local survey companies: https://euneighbourseast.eu/news/opinion-polls/ukraine-opinion-poll-shows-overwhelming-awareness-of-eu-support/
"The latest poll found an overwhelming majority were aware of EU support for refugees and IDPs (96%), EU humanitarian aid (96%), financial support (94%), military support (93%), support for future reconstruction (85%), and support to Ukraine’s integration process with the EU (81%). Almost three-quarters (73%) felt the support was effective."
Now whilst support is overwhelming, it doesn't ask the all-important question on whether we should do more than we currently do. For that, we can go to the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/26/support-for-ukraine-russia-war-yougov-poll-survey
Bit hard to copy the data here as it's presented in images, but a couple of things to note: Most people believe Ukraine should enter a peace deal, not fight until the last man. The majority feels like the west is not giving enough support to Ukraine, but they don't think their country should be the one to do it. From this we can easily extrapolate that most people would not be in favour of sending their own soldiers into Ukraine, at least not from the 7 countries polled here. Note how closer countries such as Finland or Poland isn't polled. Based on anecdotal evidence, I feel Norway would rank a lot higher in direct support as well.
Lastly, I'd like to point out my (naive) belief that leaders should have the backbone to do what is right, even if that makes them unpopular. Their job is to make difficult decisions, and it's spineless to me when someone in charge is willing to sacrifice others as a nature of their job, just not themselves
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On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards
There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure.
Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas:
geopolitically, economically, military
EU had plenty of wake up calls:
-Covid where nations fight for resources.
-Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs)
-being f-ed by relying on russian gas.
-hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option.
-180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy.
-EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network
It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war.
War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.
self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.
As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal.
Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further.
Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out.
That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support.
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I think if it actually starts to matter (which I'd argue it did a while ago), Europe could start mobilizing quite quickly, quite efficiently. The big big problem is that our lives are so fucking good nobody wants to give up that luxury.
Russia is like that rabid dog that has nothing to lose. Europe has like... everything to lose. Our problem is that we got complacent under that spell of luxury. We regulated to all hell and keep regulating to all hell. Instead of opening our trading doors to other continents we're becoming more protectionist under the guise of "carbon footprint stuff, anti dumping and shortening the supply chain". These are all good endeavours, but this requires the entire world to play along. Make draft, have a plan to roll it out so that you're one step ahead when it actually is necessary, but try to keep up with other developments as well, please Europe.
I'm not willing to help a mobilized Europe on the front line, but I'm willing to help manufacture stuff at the very least.
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Northern Ireland25430 Posts
On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support.
We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach.
You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that.
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On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that.
China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws.
That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there.
Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done?
Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive.
Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan.
It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US.
Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US.
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Northern Ireland25430 Posts
On February 20 2025 21:56 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that. China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws. That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there. Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done? Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive. Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan. It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US. Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US.
What regulations and laws?
It need not be a process of state regulation either, there’s a marked contrast to how the internet first developed and this current AI phase, and it was that those developing the technologies themselves considered various ethical issues.
This is patently, patently lacking in that AI space. It doesn’t preclude developing technology either.
Europeans aren’t luddites, many just don’t value innovation completely untethered from other considerations. Such sentiments may be ultimately toothless if others don’t play ball, doesn’t mean they’re not worth holding.
What happens when basically unregulated AI models start pumping out fake video and audio that’s basically indistinguishable from the real thing, to be disseminated on basically unregulated social media platforms? We’re already starting to see what that looks like.
And we’re starting to see what that looks like precisely because people were more concerned in winning this particular arms race than considering these problems at all.
I didn’t say the US is completely isolating itself, I said it makes no sense to cosy up to a Trump regime if you’re one of the ostensibly allied nations while they’re playing hardball. Self-reliance means removing yourself from that teat, at least in this period.
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Good luck with your traitor friend. Calling Zelensky a dictator ( he can't even hold an election under martial law), while Putin has been there for ages changing his constitution to stay in power.. it sickens me. And I wish we could globally turn on any country that tries to expand it's borders.
AI may be the least of our troubles, there are open source versions and the law of the handicap of a head start will mean that it's going to be easy to catch up. And I've yet to see how much this development in AI will change everything (just like blockchain did, lol).
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On February 20 2025 22:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that. China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws. That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there. Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done? Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive. Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan. It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US. Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US. What regulations and laws? It need not be a process of state regulation either, there’s a marked contrast to how the internet first developed and this current AI phase, and it was that those developing the technologies themselves considered various ethical issues. This is patently, patently lacking in that AI space. It doesn’t preclude developing technology either. Europeans aren’t luddites, many just don’t value innovation completely untethered from other considerations. Such sentiments may be ultimately toothless if others don’t play ball, doesn’t mean they’re not worth holding. What happens when basically unregulated AI models start pumping out fake video and audio that’s basically indistinguishable from the real thing, to be disseminated on basically unregulated social media platforms? We’re already starting to see what that looks like. And we’re starting to see what that looks like precisely because people were more concerned in winning this particular arms race than considering these problems at all. I didn’t say the US is completely isolating itself, I said it makes no sense to cosy up to a Trump regime if you’re one of the ostensibly allied nations while they’re playing hardball. Self-reliance means removing yourself from that teat, at least in this period.
Isn't it the AI act?
I am talking specifically about AI development being complete lackluster in the EU, and EU seems to love focusing on laws and regulations instead of actually helping its own members to build them up.
If you actually read about the topic, you'd know that's a massive concern within EU as well.
As long as you interact with the internet, there will be AI content.
These laws and regulation are being developed in US and China as well, that's not an excuse at all.
As for your last quote, sure except EU needs the US more than US needs Europe. Let's see if the entire EU agrees with the current direction, given conversative is becoming more popular.
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On February 20 2025 22:54 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 22:33 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that. China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws. That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there. Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done? Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive. Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan. It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US. Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US. What regulations and laws? It need not be a process of state regulation either, there’s a marked contrast to how the internet first developed and this current AI phase, and it was that those developing the technologies themselves considered various ethical issues. This is patently, patently lacking in that AI space. It doesn’t preclude developing technology either. Europeans aren’t luddites, many just don’t value innovation completely untethered from other considerations. Such sentiments may be ultimately toothless if others don’t play ball, doesn’t mean they’re not worth holding. What happens when basically unregulated AI models start pumping out fake video and audio that’s basically indistinguishable from the real thing, to be disseminated on basically unregulated social media platforms? We’re already starting to see what that looks like. And we’re starting to see what that looks like precisely because people were more concerned in winning this particular arms race than considering these problems at all. I didn’t say the US is completely isolating itself, I said it makes no sense to cosy up to a Trump regime if you’re one of the ostensibly allied nations while they’re playing hardball. Self-reliance means removing yourself from that teat, at least in this period. Isn't it the AI act? I am talking specifically about AI development being complete lackluster in the EU, and EU seems to love focusing on laws and regulations instead of actually helping its own members to build them up. If you actually read about the topic, you'd know that's a massive concern within EU as well. As long as you interact with the internet, there will be AI content. These laws and regulation are being developed in US and China as well, that's not an excuse at all. As for your last quote, sure except EU needs the US more than US needs Europe. Let's see if the entire EU agrees with the current direction, given conversative is becoming more popular.
As someone who works in AI, building your own LLMs just isn't all that important. Breakthroughs are still happening and unlike social media, it doesn't rely on the network effect for generating value. Yes, obviously Europe needs the infrastructure to be able to build models of our own, but (1) we have a decent amount of that and (2) we have the know-how to do this. Expanding that capability is imho far less important than research on model improvements. Deepseek R1 is a big deal because it democratizes AI. AccurAI is a big deal because it shows a path to reduce hallucinations (under specific conditions). All of it is valuable, innovative work, but none of this is a massive breakthrough that puts them lightyears ahead of Mistral or even some random dude training some LLMs on his gaming rig for shit and giggles. The next big thing might just as well come.from them. However no AGI-esque breakthrough is remotely likely with the current technology. Don't drink the koolaid. As far as research into agents and agent-based systems, Europe has been a leading researcher in that for years now. "Agentic AI", is just those same methods and protocols wrapped around LLMs. Europe is fine. I'd rather politicians thought about responsible usage than plunged billions into the bubbled up hype trains.
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On February 20 2025 23:15 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 22:54 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 22:33 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that. China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws. That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there. Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done? Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive. Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan. It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US. Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US. What regulations and laws? It need not be a process of state regulation either, there’s a marked contrast to how the internet first developed and this current AI phase, and it was that those developing the technologies themselves considered various ethical issues. This is patently, patently lacking in that AI space. It doesn’t preclude developing technology either. Europeans aren’t luddites, many just don’t value innovation completely untethered from other considerations. Such sentiments may be ultimately toothless if others don’t play ball, doesn’t mean they’re not worth holding. What happens when basically unregulated AI models start pumping out fake video and audio that’s basically indistinguishable from the real thing, to be disseminated on basically unregulated social media platforms? We’re already starting to see what that looks like. And we’re starting to see what that looks like precisely because people were more concerned in winning this particular arms race than considering these problems at all. I didn’t say the US is completely isolating itself, I said it makes no sense to cosy up to a Trump regime if you’re one of the ostensibly allied nations while they’re playing hardball. Self-reliance means removing yourself from that teat, at least in this period. Isn't it the AI act? I am talking specifically about AI development being complete lackluster in the EU, and EU seems to love focusing on laws and regulations instead of actually helping its own members to build them up. If you actually read about the topic, you'd know that's a massive concern within EU as well. As long as you interact with the internet, there will be AI content. These laws and regulation are being developed in US and China as well, that's not an excuse at all. As for your last quote, sure except EU needs the US more than US needs Europe. Let's see if the entire EU agrees with the current direction, given conversative is becoming more popular. As someone who works in AI, building your own LLMs just isn't all that important. Breakthroughs are still happening and unlike social media, it doesn't rely on the network effect for generating value. Yes, obviously Europe needs the infrastructure to be able to build models of our own, but (1) we have a decent amount of that and (2) we have the know-how to do this. Expanding that capability is imho far less important than research on model improvements. Deepseek R1 is a big deal because it democratizes AI. AccurAI is a big deal because it shows a path to reduce hallucinations (under specific conditions). All of it is valuable, innovative work, but none of this is a massive breakthrough that puts them lightyears ahead of Mistral or even some random dude training some LLMs on his gaming rig for shit and giggles. The next big thing might just as well come.from them. However no AGI-esque breakthrough is remotely likely with the current technology. Don't drink the koolaid. As far as research into agents and agent-based systems, Europe has been a leading researcher in that for years now. "Agentic AI", is just those same methods and protocols wrapped around LLMs. Europe is fine. I'd rather politicians thought about responsible usage than plunged billions into the bubbled up hype trains.
Europe has some fundamental problems that you shouldn't feel so optimistic.
Deepseek R1 makes it easier to run models, it only means largest AI companies with their computing power can do even more.
Largest softwares also will have the best tailor-fited ai models with its massive data set.
We don't need AGI level to have useful AI but guess which nation can reach AGI faster than everyone else? That with top computing power infrastructure.
AI as is, is already doing massive work in salesforce that we use while getting trained.
Politicians doesn't need to plunge billions.
It should be free market with companies and foreign investments, both of which are not great in EU right now because it has nothing to show for it to attract investments.
Top companies are paying massive bucks to best AI researchers for brain drain. Similar case for how many GPU they can secure.
In fact EU is already lowering regulations hoping it can keep up.
It's just going to be like tech startups all over again that snowballs until something changes.
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IT startups in EU generally end up bought by a US company. The first example I think of is Skype. This trend of US companies buying up competitors works due to the free trade agreements in place. If EU went more of the Chinese route the US companies would lose markets and local companies would step up since there is now a gap. The basic tech is complex, but there are multiple platforms showing how it is done.
Sorry, this is very off topic...
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Never forget what they did to/with Skype.
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Northern Ireland25430 Posts
On February 20 2025 23:15 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 22:54 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 22:33 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 21:56 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 21:28 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2025 20:41 ETisME wrote:On February 20 2025 08:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump calling Zelenskyy a dictator makes me think we are about to see whether or not Europe is capable of going their own way without the US. Hoping this ends up being a big patriotic moment where tough decisions are made and a decisive direction towards independence and strength is sprinted towards There's no way EU can do it within the next 5 years minimum without significant change to the entire structure. Relatively speaking (in the stage of superpower), it's just weak in all areas: geopolitically, economically, military EU had plenty of wake up calls: -Covid where nations fight for resources. -Funding China to take over its EV market (they export manufacturing jobs, make it hard to do locally, subside Europeans to buy EVs) -being f-ed by relying on russian gas. -hesitant to ban Huawei 5G even when nokia is an option. -180 degree sharp turn on Israel Hamas policy. -EURO is falling to record low levels with SWIFT network It doesn't even overachieve despite the moral highground talks, look at how EU delayed some arms supplies to Ukraine because they didn't want to risk Russia thought of it as an act of war. War fund to Ukraine is a debt.
And it's not something that can just change.
It is losing out in the AI boom again, just like it didn't bring any global tech giants. And it's still more about writing laws on AI safety.
Worst of all is how little awareness they have, they don't get it.
If it didn't become stronger before, it will only be even harder now.self reliant and nationalism are right wing leaning and is pretty much against the idea of such a strong EU overlord status. And I am pretty certain any Europe nation that actually understand importance of self reliant and safety etc, they will like to work with Trump, that will be a big no-no for many europeans to accept though.As for Ukraine, I have no doubt US just wants to finish it asap. There's no easy way to end other than drag on until they reach a new deal. Sanctions aren't working effectively, both sides are not making any breakthrough, with only Russia has the power to escalate the war further. Ukraine had the best chance to settle few years back when it had the momentum, but it was pulled out. That's pretty much how I interpreted what Trump said, EU/Biden should have talked him down to accept a deal, instead of being this messy situation and a war that is getting less public support. We’re missing out on the AI boom precisely because many Europeans actively want to figure out the ethical problems and other ramifications first before just ploughing ahead with it. And it’s not a process that’s purely internally-focused either. It’s not like we can insulate ourselves from what others are doing, but if we can apply sufficient regulatory pressure it may mitigate that. I don’t see any innate problem with that approach. You can either be self-reliant, or work with Trump. Doing both well, they’re somewhat antithetical to each other. If you wanna be more self-reliant, pursue that course. Tying yourself to an entirely self-interested regime is not the way to go about that. China and the US already have the AI models, GPU, GPU data center and building infrastructures for them, while building out the regulations and laws. That's how it should be done, laws cannot catch up with technological change. And it's not like EU ban development of AI models, it's just not there. Otherwise where's Europe's own global social media or ecommerce, now that the laws should be pretty much done? Meanwhile AI data center hits Europe hard, because it is extremely energy intensive. Trump isn't making the US isolate itself, it is only distancing with a few allies like Europe and possibly in the eyes of Taiwan. It's already building closer ties with India and Japan, and other nations are learning how to deal with Trump's US. Both are very nationalistic, Japan in particular work very well with the US. What regulations and laws? It need not be a process of state regulation either, there’s a marked contrast to how the internet first developed and this current AI phase, and it was that those developing the technologies themselves considered various ethical issues. This is patently, patently lacking in that AI space. It doesn’t preclude developing technology either. Europeans aren’t luddites, many just don’t value innovation completely untethered from other considerations. Such sentiments may be ultimately toothless if others don’t play ball, doesn’t mean they’re not worth holding. What happens when basically unregulated AI models start pumping out fake video and audio that’s basically indistinguishable from the real thing, to be disseminated on basically unregulated social media platforms? We’re already starting to see what that looks like. And we’re starting to see what that looks like precisely because people were more concerned in winning this particular arms race than considering these problems at all. I didn’t say the US is completely isolating itself, I said it makes no sense to cosy up to a Trump regime if you’re one of the ostensibly allied nations while they’re playing hardball. Self-reliance means removing yourself from that teat, at least in this period. Isn't it the AI act? I am talking specifically about AI development being complete lackluster in the EU, and EU seems to love focusing on laws and regulations instead of actually helping its own members to build them up. If you actually read about the topic, you'd know that's a massive concern within EU as well. As long as you interact with the internet, there will be AI content. These laws and regulation are being developed in US and China as well, that's not an excuse at all. As for your last quote, sure except EU needs the US more than US needs Europe. Let's see if the entire EU agrees with the current direction, given conversative is becoming more popular. As someone who works in AI, building your own LLMs just isn't all that important. Breakthroughs are still happening and unlike social media, it doesn't rely on the network effect for generating value. Yes, obviously Europe needs the infrastructure to be able to build models of our own, but (1) we have a decent amount of that and (2) we have the know-how to do this. Expanding that capability is imho far less important than research on model improvements. Deepseek R1 is a big deal because it democratizes AI. AccurAI is a big deal because it shows a path to reduce hallucinations (under specific conditions). All of it is valuable, innovative work, but none of this is a massive breakthrough that puts them lightyears ahead of Mistral or even some random dude training some LLMs on his gaming rig for shit and giggles. The next big thing might just as well come.from them. However no AGI-esque breakthrough is remotely likely with the current technology. Don't drink the koolaid. As far as research into agents and agent-based systems, Europe has been a leading researcher in that for years now. "Agentic AI", is just those same methods and protocols wrapped around LLMs. Europe is fine. I'd rather politicians thought about responsible usage than plunged billions into the bubbled up hype trains.
Aye pretty much.
Thanks for the groundwork, saves me having to showcase that ‘if you read about the topic’ is a bit off-base.
We are drifting a bit off the central topic I suppose, so I’ll try to stop digging in that direction.
Europe does have problems, be it in foreign policy increasingly or tech regulation, or green initiatives or whatever. How do you compete while attempting to be socially responsible, or collaborative/collective when the competition doesn’t give a shit about doing that?
Doesn’t mean that those are innately bad ideas or things not worth pursuing.
On February 21 2025 00:50 Yurie wrote:
IT startups in EU generally end up bought by a US company. The first example I think of is Skype. This trend of US companies buying up competitors works due to the free trade agreements in place. If EU went more of the Chinese route the US companies would lose markets and local companies would step up since there is now a gap. The basic tech is complex, but there are multiple platforms showing how it is done.
Sorry, this is very off topic...
I guess Spotify is a platform that most are familiar with that is still in Euro hands.
I was intrigued to learn just there that even that giant of that sector only first reported actually making a profit in 2024.
Another aspect of certain US tech success is venture capital essentially loss leading until traditional, regulated sectors get crushed. And only upon that happening do they start juking up the price points to start making money.
The likes of AirBnB and Uber went from startups dealing with ways to better utilise existing resources and connect potential users of services and providers that were otherwise disconnected, to rental property without regulation, and taxi services without regulation pretty quickly once they attracted venture capital interest.
They’ve obviously got market penetration in Europe now because they got to become behemoths in the US and move over, I don’t think the opposite happens to nearly the same degree. European Uber or whatever likely gets hit with reasonable regulation when it’s still a national concern, or definitely when it becomes a Europe-wide phenomenon, and thus becomes less sexy an export.
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Well, here we go, 3 weeks to decide if Europe pitifully lets Russia become the new world hegemony or if they realize they can become the new world hegemony if they have the courage to do so
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-europe-troops-ukraine-peace-deal-2033823
"The United States has given us three weeks to agree on terms for Ukraine's surrender. If we don't, the United States will withdraw from Europe."
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EPT
