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On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them.
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Currently this is more of a danger for the US than Europe. It is obviously likely that all the drone and AI technology currently tested on Palestinians will be adapted to be applied to protesters in the US fairly soon. In terms of 1930-1940 Europe you would need a foreign invader like Germany was, and the only candidate right now is Russia, who isn't very scary.
Yeah it's definitely coming to the US too.
Russia has been both an existential threat to Europe if everything isn't put into stopping them in Ukraine, and laughable as a threat to Europe regardless of how Ukraine goes, depending on the point someone is trying to make for a few years now.
My read is that Russia will find an ally/allies in Europe with right wing leadership that seizes on the potential of aligning with Trump and Putin early at the express expense of their neighbors.
I'm not really into European politics, so I'd trust some of you to have some better intuitions as to which countries that's likely to be. Regardless, you're probably already seeing your politicians squirm knowing they should be standing up to the rise of fascism, but also that if there isn't an "Allies" faction, then they'll just get left behind (or trampled) if they don't fall in line behind the "Axis" asap.
I mean I certainly thought Russia was more dangerous before I saw them in Ukraine, that's one thing.
Imo Europe falls because it votes in far right people who destroy their own countries, much like Trump aims to, rather than any sort of external threat like in the 1940s.
In fairness, the Russia part is probably still pretty pressing for Eastern Europe. Especially without US/Western assurances.
Eastern Europeans are about to find out they are not tier 1 white club members, and that makes them quite expendable geopolitically speaking
On February 16 2025 07:53 raga4ka wrote: I hope Europe will take some drastic measures tomorrow at the Paris meeting. You have to stick it to Putin and to Trump where it hurts. From what I heard from JD Vance, Trump is more likely waging war on liberal democracy itself not only in the US, but in the EU as well. Trump will soon understand that fucking with your closest allies is not a wise decision.
Europe is in no position to stick it to anyone now. Its over. The past few decades of subservient and sycophant behavior towards the US from European countries (to various degrees) has left Europe at a historically weak state.
You are not an ally, you are a vasal. The economic and military burden of doubling down in Ukraine at any cost has ruined the prosperity of many EU countries for generations to come. Its brought the US to the point where it cannot afford to have vassals anymore, the coffers are empty, the system is rotten and if the United States doesn’t lose the heavy baggage it will be lucky to keep second place in the fast approaching multi polar World
Europe doesn’t have anyone else to blame but itself and the gross incompetence of its unelected leaders for the position it’s in right now. Nobody made Europe ruin its economy and lose energy security, nobody made Europe lose all security independence. That’s on Europe. Europe doesn’t get a seat at the table because Europe isn’t relevant anymore.
The United States, whatever your views on it might be, is an independent country with institutions working in its self interest and trying to pick up the pieces from the incredible mess that’s been left after the last 4 years. There is a new administration which has a popular mandate and the will to become an actual force for peace in the World, they know more than anyone with their tens of agencies and trillion-dollar surveillance apparatus what the real situation on the ground is and what needs to be done. Europe doesn’t get a seat at the table the same way a child in kindergarden that hasn’t been told no enough in its life doesn’t get to make big decisions in his or her life.
They need to grow up a little and stop throwing tantrums. Maybe then they will be taken seriously.
How are protests going in Serbia? People in Serbia are protesting, because they don't want Aleksandar Vučić's corrupt pro-Putin presidency and they want to join the EU. Your government fell, next to fall is Vučić. Putin must be stopped at all costs, even if Europe has to pay a huge economic price, then so be it. Appending dictators Is only ok for Russian trolls and Putin's lackeys. In the free world, dictators should be pushed back to their ruin of a country by force.
Protests are going great, hopefully we can take him down. I have no idea where you are getting the pro-EU crowd wants to take don’t the pro-Russia strongman spin from though… Ive been to a lot of the street protests, massive crowds and not one EU or USA flag. Any NGO that has tried to come in with that horse shit has been shown the door, same can be said for anyone bringing in a Russian flag. These are our protests about our country, not the EU or Russia.
The only thing Vucic is, is pro himself. He is completely in the pocket of the EU and would have sold out completely if it wasn’t political suicide to be a NATO stooge. You really think the EU would call our elections ‘fair’ and ‘legitimate’ if they didn’t want him there? He would have been Georgian Dreamed long ago.
Joining the EU doesn’t magically wipe out all corruption and clean up the political elites, quite the contrary. Is Bulgaria a corruption free country? Did the EU clean up your politicians or are the same scumbags and their families in power indefinitely because they bow their heads and do as they are told? No.
On February 16 2025 20:35 raga4ka wrote: What multipolar world are you talking about? Russia is not a factor, It's just a regional power. On one side there is the US with its allies. Only China is a global economic power, but even backed by Russia, the two of them can't do much, even if you add Iran and North Korea, It's the same. The world is still run by the US together with their allies at least for now.
Europe cannot continue this war because it has nothing to continue it with. Ammunition stocks have been used up, weapons in reserve have been used up. They don't have money to spend on new ones, they don’t have enough of their own energy sources. If America says enough is enough then that's the end, they do what the States tell them to do. That’s how vassaldom works, there is no 'together with its allies', the 'allies' are no longer useful anymore.
I know huffing Kwarks ‘Russia is economically done for this time for reals folks, the ruble cope is real this time guys only 20 more years’ for long enough has side effects, but even the most coped out person can see Russia and China have been pushed together and they each know if one gets taken out the other one is next. We will see how it all goes but by the end of the next decade there won’t be only one sheriff in town. A smart country starts preparing for the future, idiots double down on lost causes and with time fade from the history books.
It will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts tomorrow. The stock market is the only thing that can change the tone of the USA. If only the EU would be proactive with sanctions and threats. The EU should not always be expected to react and to be a stabilising actor. If Vance's criticism and the USA's action are acceptable, then Europeans can respond similarly, right?
The problem is that Europeans would not get the desired reaction just by criticising things like the US foreign policy. Most people do not care how their policies affect people in Gaza, China, or Somalia, for example. Thus, the criticism needs to focus on issues that matter to Americans. This is why Vance's criticism of Europeans on values, immigration, free speech, and democracy is so effective. We already have a lot of people who view these issues as the most significant issue in Europe. However, it would be hard to criticise policies like workers' rights, deregulation, healthcare, human rights, etc., while pushing Europeans to deregulate, cut public spending, and restrict the right to seek asylum. A lot of lobbying is international now. The same actors are pushing for corporate tax cuts and deregulation in the USA and the EU.
Europe lacks principled leaders who fundamentally disagree with US policies on the ideological level. Not just disagreeing because it does not benefit Europe(you), but because you think it is wrong. For example, Macron would look stupid, considering his domestic policies, if he tried to criticise the USA in a way similar to Vance.
On February 17 2025 01:20 Legan wrote: It will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts tomorrow. The stock market is the only thing that can change the tone of the USA.
What is the stock market going to react to? Unless I've missed something, there's nothing really to impact it right now
On February 17 2025 01:20 Legan wrote: It will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts tomorrow. The stock market is the only thing that can change the tone of the USA.
What is the stock market going to react to? Unless I've missed something, there's nothing really to impact it right now
One could dare to assume that the EU-USA relationship going shit even on security would cause significant instability and fear for the future, which should lead to negative reactions in the stock market. Still, I don't actually have hope for that. Investing billions in Ukraine's defence and utterly failing does not seem to impact the economy negatively. It is just, that one could also assume that at some point, current major political issues will break the camel's back and the trust that all will be well. Of course, it is also true that there is little reason why the failure in Munich would be the thing that breaks the camel's back.
On February 17 2025 01:20 Legan wrote: It will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts tomorrow. The stock market is the only thing that can change the tone of the USA.
What is the stock market going to react to? Unless I've missed something, there's nothing really to impact it right now
One could dare to assume that the EU-USA relationship going shit even on security would cause significant instability and fear for the future, which should lead to negative reactions in the stock market. Still, I don't actually have hope for that. Investing billions in Ukraine's defence and utterly failing does not seem to impact the economy negatively. It is just, that one could also assume that at some point, current major political issues will break the camel's back and the trust that all will be well. Of course, it is also true that there is little reason why the failure in Munich would be the thing that breaks the camel's back.
Yeah, it would take something a lot bigger. The market is a powerhouse and it's literally everyone's (who participates in it) interest that it doesn't fail. Every American's retirement account is bound up into the stock market, and everyone who has any authority to dictate anything has all their assets in it as well. I'm not saying it'll never break, in fact logic dictates it has to at some point, it can't just grow forever. But like you said, we need a lot more than a straw to break the camel at this point
On February 17 2025 01:20 Legan wrote: It will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts tomorrow. The stock market is the only thing that can change the tone of the USA.
What is the stock market going to react to? Unless I've missed something, there's nothing really to impact it right now
One could dare to assume that the EU-USA relationship going shit even on security would cause significant instability and fear for the future, which should lead to negative reactions in the stock market. Still, I don't actually have hope for that. Investing billions in Ukraine's defence and utterly failing does not seem to impact the economy negatively. It is just, that one could also assume that at some point, current major political issues will break the camel's back and the trust that all will be well. Of course, it is also true that there is little reason why the failure in Munich would be the thing that breaks the camel's back.
I fail to see how sending billions in military surplus would negatively impact the EU's economy.
Also calling it an utter failure is wild stretch, its certainly not a roaring success but Ukraine is successfully holding off Russia, which is in a war economy, with NATO's scraps, hand me downs and surplus.
On February 16 2025 08:17 Elroi wrote: [quote] What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Currently this is more of a danger for the US than Europe. It is obviously likely that all the drone and AI technology currently tested on Palestinians will be adapted to be applied to protesters in the US fairly soon. In terms of 1930-1940 Europe you would need a foreign invader like Germany was, and the only candidate right now is Russia, who isn't very scary.
Yeah it's definitely coming to the US too.
Russia has been both an existential threat to Europe if everything isn't put into stopping them in Ukraine, and laughable as a threat to Europe regardless of how Ukraine goes, depending on the point someone is trying to make for a few years now.
My read is that Russia will find an ally/allies in Europe with right wing leadership that seizes on the potential of aligning with Trump and Putin early at the express expense of their neighbors.
I'm not really into European politics, so I'd trust some of you to have some better intuitions as to which countries that's likely to be. Regardless, you're probably already seeing your politicians squirm knowing they should be standing up to the rise of fascism, but also that if there isn't an "Allies" faction, then they'll just get left behind (or trampled) if they don't fall in line behind the "Axis" asap.
I mean I certainly thought Russia was more dangerous before I saw them in Ukraine, that's one thing.
Imo Europe falls because it votes in far right people who destroy their own countries, much like Trump aims to, rather than any sort of external threat like in the 1940s.
In fairness, the Russia part is probably still pretty pressing for Eastern Europe. Especially without US/Western assurances.
Eastern Europeans are about to find out they are not tier 1 white club members, and that makes them quite expendable geopolitically speaking
I guess this is some not so serious post, but I don't get the point of it anyway. If "Anglo Saxons have the most power", then surely Russia is easy to beat and we don't see that 3 years later. Maybe it was true before the era of nuclear weapons though. For the record, I'm not on Russia's side on this one, just commenting on the linked post.
South Ossetian, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Chechnya, Ukraine. Surely if we give Russia just a little more land they will finally stop invading their neighbours...
On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them.
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What?
It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant? - go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily? - impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up. Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line.
Hopefully I'm not wrong, but I think some people overreact to Trump. He'll be gone in 4 years and hopefully a better president is elected. We already survived his 1st term. Maybe he even loses majority in mid-term elections next year, who knows. The more pressing issue is he doesn't force a bad deal for Ukraine and Europe right now.
Trump is doing some Electric Boogaloo things though. These four years could seem like a lifetime. In any case. EU really should start growing some teeth. Fuck this Panslavic bullshit. Just cast a NATO/EU net around Russia. China, Belarus, Ukraine, Kazachstan, Gorgia, Japan, North Korea. Just let them all join. If Canada's up for EU membership, why not all these as well?
On February 17 2025 06:32 SC-Shield wrote: Hopefully I'm not wrong, but I think some people overreact to Trump. He'll be gone in 4 years and hopefully a better president is elected. We already survived his 1st term. Maybe he even loses majority in mid-term elections next year, who knows. The more pressing issue is he doesn't force a bad deal for Ukraine and Europe right now.
Trump is mere a symptom of the issues afflicting America. Especially with him actually being re-elected after his disaster of a first term.
There is absolutely no certainty that Americans won't vote in someone like Trump again in 4-8 years. Once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, three times is a trend, and one can certainly make the argument the first fluke was Bush jr, so then we're very much at a trend already.
On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them.
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What?
It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant? - go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily? - impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up.
Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line.
I don't think I would use "serves you right" but I might use "You reap what you sow".
As far as us in the US, I'm confident our centrists/libs/Dems will immediately collaborate with the fascists to preempt any civil war and you'll see them here insisting anyone opposing their complicity as unreasonable and worse.
I try to maintain my revolutionary optimism, but I have to admit, my probability cloud of successfully staving off fascism isn't very dense in the US. It goes up slightly if the Europe steps up and joins a world that'd be ready and willing to join them in sanctioning the US while rapidly increasing lines of trade that circumvent US interests to fill the voids.
On February 17 2025 06:32 SC-Shield wrote: Hopefully I'm not wrong, but I think some people overreact to Trump. He'll be gone in 4 years and hopefully a better president is elected. We already survived his 1st term. Maybe he even loses majority in mid-term elections next year, who knows. The more pressing issue is he doesn't force a bad deal for Ukraine and Europe right now.
That's the big question, whether these are the death throes of simpleton populism for easily swayed boomers or the beginning of Dark Ages 2 where instead of facts, information and credibility there's just "vibes" and "narratives" that any village idiot on xitter can cook up and push into the mainstream.
On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them.
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What?
It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant? - go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily? - impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up.
Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line.
I don't think I would use "serves you right" but I might use "You reap what you sow".
As far as us in the US, I'm confident our centrists/libs/Dems will immediately collaborate with the fascists to preempt any civil war and you'll see them here insisting anyone opposing their complicity as unreasonable and worse.
I try to maintain my revolutionary optimism, but I have to admit, my probability cloud of successfully staving off fascism isn't very dense in the US. It goes up slightly if the Europe steps up and joins a world that'd be ready and willing to join them in sanctioning the US while rapidly increasing lines of trade that circumvent US interests to fill the voids.
What you did use was essentially "you reap what the US sowed" but whatever. I would prefer the US reap what they sow instead for once.
I'm all for Europe to start reducing dependency on the US, but the problem with sanctioning the US for their past crimes - besides it being counterproductive at this point - is that while there will never be a good time for the US and Europe to start sanctioning each other, for Europe this would be the worst time imaginable. It's a fucked up world and nobody's innocent. The last thing Europe is trying to do is fight a trade war and an actual war on two fronts. Pick your battles and all that.
On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them.
What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long.
Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so.
Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby.
Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us?
If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain.
If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's.
If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire.
I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever.
Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +
How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China.
No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans.
Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time.
Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What?
It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant? - go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily? - impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up.
Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line.
I don't think I would use "serves you right" but I might use "You reap what you sow".
As far as us in the US, I'm confident our centrists/libs/Dems will immediately collaborate with the fascists to preempt any civil war and you'll see them here insisting anyone opposing their complicity as unreasonable and worse.
I try to maintain my revolutionary optimism, but I have to admit, my probability cloud of successfully staving off fascism isn't very dense in the US. It goes up slightly if the Europe steps up and joins a world that'd be ready and willing to join them in sanctioning the US while rapidly increasing lines of trade that circumvent US interests to fill the voids.
Who are Europe joining here?
It’s not like huge chunks of the world are bastions of fighting for actual points of principle even if it’s to their own detriment.
Not that Europe is either, but it’s about the best you get such is the state of things. At least some parts of it.
Hey it’d be a nice show of balls, I just think it’s exceedingly unlikely that both Europe ever attempts such a thing, but also that they drag many others along with them.
Aside from my general pessimism there, it’s not really something a lot of Europe is all that well-positioned to do. I think there’s a quite understandable assumption that much of Europe is economically like a mini-US, with similar economies just not as big. It’s not quite the case in many instances.
‘We’re sanctioning the US, come join and we’ll make it worth your while with tasty deals and increased links’ isn’t necessarily a carrot much of Europe can actually dangle.
EPT
