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On February 17 2025 07:38 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2025 07:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 17 2025 06:16 Jones313 wrote:On February 16 2025 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 17:12 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:38 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:17 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them. What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long. Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so. Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby. Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us? If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain. If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's. If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire. I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever. Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China. No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans. Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time. Because the US has wreaked havoc around the globe, it serves us right in Europe to be invaded by Russia? What? + Show Spoiler +It seems like a common misconception in the US to think of Russia as part of Europe. If anything, Europe tolerating Russian imperialism up until 2022 is what led to where we are. If you have something concrete to say about where Europe went wrong, say it instead of this vague tankie nonsense based on "intuition" about how the US is evil, therefore Europe is guilty by association. For example, during the Cold War, instead of looking the other way should Europe have done the following:
- sanction the US and withdraw from NATO and the Marshall Plan, effectively signing their own death warrant?
- go further and start a full blown arms race again like it was the 1910's and challenge the US militarily?
- impotently wag their finger at the US and talk shit on the internet?
Europe has a ton of issues, but we're not the world police. NATO was never about that, for Europe it was about survival. We're not some monolith either and our biggest challenge right now is to collectively stand up for ourselves. Call us weak, timid, whatever - generally speaking Europe is still the adult in the room. Perhaps our biggest mistake has been to wait for the US and Russia to get over their military fetishes and grow the fuck up. Maybe when in the US it comes to the choice between civil war and looking the other way from Trump's fascist shenanigans you'll know what it's like to have your continent and your ass on the line. I did elaborate a bit. I don't think I would use "serves you right" but I might use "You reap what you sow". As far as us in the US, I'm confident our centrists/libs/Dems will immediately collaborate with the fascists to preempt any civil war and you'll see them here insisting anyone opposing their complicity as unreasonable and worse. I try to maintain my revolutionary optimism, but I have to admit, my probability cloud of successfully staving off fascism isn't very dense in the US. It goes up slightly if the Europe steps up and joins a world that'd be ready and willing to join them in sanctioning the US while rapidly increasing lines of trade that circumvent US interests to fill the voids. Who are Europe joining here? + Show Spoiler +It’s not like huge chunks of the world are bastions of fighting for actual points of principle even if it’s to their own detriment.
Not that Europe is either, but it’s about the best you get such is the state of things. At least some parts of it.
Hey it’d be a nice show of balls, I just think it’s exceedingly unlikely that both Europe ever attempts such a thing, but also that they drag many others along with them.
Aside from my general pessimism there, it’s not really something a lot of Europe is all that well-positioned to do. I think there’s a quite understandable assumption that much of Europe is economically like a mini-US, with similar economies just not as big. It’s not quite the case in many instances. ‘We’re sanctioning the US, come join and we’ll make it worth your while with tasty deals and increased links’ isn’t necessarily a carrot much of Europe can actually dangle.
There's already basically ubiquitous ostensible opposition to the US's embargo on Cuba and the US's support for Israel's illegal settlements (nevermind the ongoing genocide). Seems a good place to start.
Put some teeth on that opposition while taking China up on coordinating the Belt and Road with the EU's Global Gateway project. It's not a silver bullet solution, it's just a shot across the bow with some positive/functional side effects.
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On February 16 2025 21:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2025 19:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 17:12 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:38 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 08:28 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 16 2025 08:17 Elroi wrote:On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's caught up with them. What crimes? I think we have rather continued our own moronic defense and energy policies for too long. Basically ~90% of US foreign policy for the last 70 years or so. Coups, wars, torture, immiseration, etc. Europe is about to have it all come home again. Hope you have a "Greatest Generation" on standby. Assuming that you are right, how is it coming back to haunt us? If it isn't intuitive, I'm not sure it's easy to explain. If you think about all the death and suffering inflicted by the US (or West generally) on oppressed people throughout the Global South and beyond. All that has been rationalized as some variation of "unfortunate but necessary", or "lesser evil", "collateral damage", or "spreading freedom and democracy", "self-defense" (Israel), or whatever. That's all coming back to Europe like it did in the 30's/40's. If you happen to be a fan of fascism and have the sorta look/attitude/circumstances that thrives in that space, this might be great news. If not, Zelenskyy's message was pretty dire. I'm not a fan of fascism, but whatever. Is your point that the "global south" is going to attack Europe because of the US' history of foreign policy? + Show Spoiler +How exactly are we seeing that now? It seems to me that people from the global south are more or less equally violent wherever they go - be it Great Britain (long colonial history) or Sweden (no colonial history but long history of humanitarian policies and foreign aid). And the "Global South" is basically a non player in general that laggs more and more behind the rest of the world - just compare Israel to the more or less failed states that surround it.
I also don't understand what Zelensky's warning that you linked about the US not wanting to defend Europe anymore has to do with this imagined uprising by the "Global South". It's a reflection of a shift in the great power competition between the US and Russia/China. No. I mean, like in the 1930's and 40's, Western foreign policy is coming back to Europe to be domestic policy by way of other Europeans. Except there's no one to save you Europeans from yourselves this time. Currently this is more of a danger for the US than Europe. It is obviously likely that all the drone and AI technology currently tested on Palestinians will be adapted to be applied to protesters in the US fairly soon. In terms of 1930-1940 Europe you would need a foreign invader like Germany was, and the only candidate right now is Russia, who isn't very scary.
No need to worry about Israel, NATO member is killing unarmed protesters with turkish drones right now.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/01/30/northeast-syria-apparent-war-crime-turkiye-backed-forces
And what makes the bolded true?
On February 16 2025 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Sure seems like Europe is in for a rude awakening. Seems they turned a blind eye to the crimes of the US for too long, now it's catching/caught up with them.
Can we keep the super monotonous US is bad and its all their fault to the US pol thread. It is tiring enough reading it there. Or at least draw some direct line.
On February 17 2025 07:07 Jones313 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2025 06:32 SC-Shield wrote:
Hopefully I'm not wrong, but I think some people overreact to Trump. He'll be gone in 4 years and hopefully a better president is elected. We already survived his 1st term. Maybe he even loses majority in mid-term elections next year, who knows. The more pressing issue is he doesn't force a bad deal for Ukraine and Europe right now. That's the big question, whether these are the death throes of simpleton populism for easily swayed boomers or the beginning of Dark Ages 2 where instead of facts, information and credibility there's just "vibes" and "narratives" that any village idiot on xitter can cook up and push into the mainstream.
Sadly I think the former. It is way easier and more dramatic (which people seem to love) to blame some bad others for everything wrong than analyze complex problems and try to find actual solutions.
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ibb.co
There you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land...
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On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land...
If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025.
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It would be a continuation of what happened until now, and things tend to keep happening as opposed to suddenly stopping for no reason. Israel has been exporting the technology that they test on Palestinians to the rest of the world for more than 50 years. The US is on a path to become more authoritarian and would obviously benefit from AI targeting systems. It would be weird if they didn't use it.
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I didn't know Donald Trump is also an aspiring comedian. A man of many talents.
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On February 20 2025 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land... If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025.
Could you be a little bit more vague?
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On February 20 2025 02:17 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land... If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025. Could you be a little bit more vague?
I'm saying that if Europe makes a plea to the international community to rein in Russia (ensure Ukraine's sovereignty) and in exchange they will sign on to material efforts to rein in the US (could be pretty minimal, like formal condemnations and specific sanctions against individuals in reality) I believe they'd have more success than their current intuitions lead them to believe
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Hopefully, Ukrainians will finally be allowed to vote for who they want representing them in government and they will be given free movement, peace and an avenue to hold the politicians that got them into this situation to account. Thankfully, those chanting 'war is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength' no longer have a say in these peoples future.
There is less and less time left before the lines completely collapse. The sooner a peace deal is signed the better the outcome for them.
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:28 zeo wrote:
Hopefully, Ukrainians will finally be allowed to vote for who they want representing them in government and they will be given free movement, peace and an avenue to hold the politicians that got them into this situation to account. Thankfully, those chanting 'war is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength' no longer have a say in these peoples future.
There is less and less time left before the lines completely collapse. The sooner a peace deal is signed the better the outcome for them.
lol. i forgot you existed.
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Finland962 Posts
Going to assume that Ukrainians won't be able to hold Putin or the rest of the Russian government to account through their own elections.
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Well, I'll admit it took a month longer than expected, but Trump is showing exactly what we predicted before the election. A true traitor
For anyone wondering about Trumps 3 part plan btw, which is:
1. Ceasefire
2. Hold Ukrainian election
3. Some kind of deal? No specifics given
Step nr 2 is what Putin truly wants. If he can get a weaker or pro-russian leader to take over Ukraine, he can just completely break off the ceasefire and continue the invasion
Ironically, Zelensky has a 57% approval rating atm in Ukraine, and would likely win any re-election if he wanted to run for it, but there's just zero chances anything like a democratic election could be held fairly whilst so much of the country remains under occupation.
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On February 20 2025 02:28 zeo wrote:
Hopefully, Ukrainians will finally be allowed to vote for who they want representing them in government and they will be given free movement, peace and an avenue to hold the politicians that got them into this situation to account. Thankfully, those chanting 'war is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength' no longer have a say in these peoples future.
There is less and less time left before the lines completely collapse. The sooner a peace deal is signed the better the outcome for them.
You mean like in Serbia? Strange people are protesting all the time yet none of your politicians are held accountable ever.
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Northern Ireland26419 Posts
On February 20 2025 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:17 maybenexttime wrote:On February 20 2025 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land... If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025. Could you be a little bit more vague? I'm saying that if Europe makes a plea to the international community to rein in Russia (ensure Ukraine's sovereignty) and in exchange they will sign on to material efforts to rein in the US (could be pretty minimal, like formal condemnations and specific sanctions against individuals in reality) I believe they'd have more success than their current intuitions lead them to believe
Who’s joining them in that endeavour?
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On February 20 2025 04:26 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:28 zeo wrote:
Hopefully, Ukrainians will finally be allowed to vote for who they want representing them in government and they will be given free movement, peace and an avenue to hold the politicians that got them into this situation to account. Thankfully, those chanting 'war is peace. freedom is slavery. ignorance is strength' no longer have a say in these peoples future.
There is less and less time left before the lines completely collapse. The sooner a peace deal is signed the better the outcome for them. You mean like in Serbia? Strange people are protesting all the time yet none of your politicians are held accountable ever.
I'm not quite sure what you want to say with this, it is a bad thing people can protest against a corrupt and incompetent government in Serbia? How do you hold to account politicians that rig the system discretely without people being allowed to voice their opinions? Let alone politicians that are in the sixth year of their five year term.
I'm sure the Ukrainians would like a say on how their country is ran too. Its kind of telling when the reaction to the possibility of democratic elections is one of panic and despair, no? If the totally '100% trust me' opinion polls are so good for him there is no reason to be worried, its a formality and financially a drop in the ocean compared to the money being thrown around there.
The post Maidan governments held elections since 2015 all while claiming parts of Ukraine were under occupation, it wasn't a problem back then.
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On February 20 2025 02:27 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 02:17 maybenexttime wrote:On February 20 2025 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 20 2025 01:45 raga4ka wrote:ibb.coThere you have it folks... Zelensky is a dictator who started a war he couldn't win. While "yours truly" Trump, negotiated peace with Putin, who deserves this land, because quoting Trump: "They took a lot of land, they fought for that land, they lost a lot of soldiers" so Putin deserves that land... If Europeans think they couldn't get the rest of the world to sign on to reining in Russia a bit in exchange for reining in the US some (admittedly a decent bit more) you need to reevaluate your understanding of global politics in 2025. Could you be a little bit more vague? I'm saying that if Europe makes a plea to the international community to rein in Russia (ensure Ukraine's sovereignty) and in exchange they will sign on to material efforts to rein in the US (could be pretty minimal, like formal condemnations and specific sanctions against individuals in reality) I believe they'd have more success than their current intuitions lead them to believe
You're still not making any sense. What international community? The BRICS countries don't give a shit about that. They'll do whatever benefits them. Other big players are already pro-Ukraine. The rest of the world are small fish with no influence over the US.
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On February 20 2025 03:27 Excludos wrote:
Well, I'll admit it took a month longer than expected, but Trump is showing exactly what we predicted before the election. A true traitor
For anyone wondering about Trumps 3 part plan btw, which is:
1. Ceasefire
2. Hold Ukrainian election
3. Some kind of deal? No specifics given
Step nr 2 is what Putin truly wants. If he can get a weaker or pro-russian leader to take over Ukraine, he can just completely break off the ceasefire and continue the invasion
Ironically, Zelensky has a 57% approval rating atm in Ukraine, and would likely win any re-election if he wanted to run for it, but there's just zero chances anything like a democratic election could be held fairly whilst so much of the country remains under occupation.
Not to mention the fact that it would be a logistical nightmare even in the non-occupied territory, and the polling stations would be juicy targets for Russian drones.
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On February 20 2025 05:14 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2025 03:27 Excludos wrote:
Well, I'll admit it took a month longer than expected, but Trump is showing exactly what we predicted before the election. A true traitor
For anyone wondering about Trumps 3 part plan btw, which is:
1. Ceasefire
2. Hold Ukrainian election
3. Some kind of deal? No specifics given
Step nr 2 is what Putin truly wants. If he can get a weaker or pro-russian leader to take over Ukraine, he can just completely break off the ceasefire and continue the invasion
Ironically, Zelensky has a 57% approval rating atm in Ukraine, and would likely win any re-election if he wanted to run for it, but there's just zero chances anything like a democratic election could be held fairly whilst so much of the country remains under occupation. Not to mention the fact that it would be a logistical nightmare even in the non-occupied territory, and the polling stations would be juicy targets for Russian drones.
Only in the regions most negative towards Russia would there be drone strikes. The two random cities that are pro Russia still (I am assuming a high number here) would of course not be randomly struck the day before the election while other cities would be.
As I understand current negotiation positions:
Ukraine is mostly fine with losing eastern part of country currently occupied. Not happy but could accept it in an overall good peace deal.
They do require material security guarantees, boots on the ground style and would like a fast track for Nato / EU.
Russia forbids real security guarantees and wants a bit more land than they currently hold.
The rest of stuff such as elections, Russia paying Ukraine for damages etc mostly falls under the fluff that you negotiate over to get a slightly better deal somewhere else.
Edit, Trump seems to be aligning with Russia. Pushing for war to end without any security guarantees, basically hoping the war stops for 4 years so his successor gets to deal with it for real. Russia would probably be fine with that as well by this point, very expensive war. While in peace they can just wait for Ukraine to collapse as people emigrate out due to random drone strikes continuing and the war time closed border opens up.
Ukraine can't really rebuild either, all companies know Russia will continue the war in a few years in that scenario. Any big project would probably get hit by a missile/drone to stop new ones.
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The shock and terror, felt, as I see what is transpiring before our eyes. Trump taking side with the invader. With the one who came to another country's home, and started killing and murdering left and right, in order to enslave and claim it as their own. That's who Trump decided to side with.
That's his "I'll end this war".
I believe that the humanity in any person, subdued as it may be, deep down, cries. What a disaster. What a fucking clown. What a goddamn pathetic pussy. What a lie. What a shameful betrayal.
No, sorry Mr. Trump - blaming the victim for having their homeland murdered, enslaved and under bombs - is not "I will end this war". The only thing you ended is your legitimate claim to any respect of any person on this planet. You just started a legacy of infinite shame, just as Putin is already developing his.
What a joke. This is just such a complete disaster but it is truly a disaster of humanity. To allow brutality and bombs to rule, the violence and mass killings, the threats and intimdation, the tanks and the rule of "I will kill you if you don't obey". This is a disaster of humanity. This just a complete disaster.
It is also the most gigantic bomb of shame on the entire USA. This bomb of shame is not visible just from the orbit, it's visible from nearby galaxies, I think. When the lead tiger, previously dominant and strong, now cowers and bows to exploits and horrific misdeeds of another so much as to embrace their standard blanket of deception and cover up around horrific deeds, it's a clear sign they are long gone and the only thing left to trust is their newly found ways of clear weakness, dishonesty and lying away out of it attempts.
Trump, single handedly, just declared that your status as world superpower is completely and utterly over because you - at least under Trump - can't stand up for your allies. Not only can't stand up - you can only cower in sliding under the blanket of deception and lying, to cover up horrific deeds of criminal "leaders". That's just so sad.
EDIT: perhaps I am completely wrong. Perhaps, this is purely strategy of making a deal. Perhaps, it is purely a play to make negotiations and talk even possible. Perhaps, it is a course of action that leads to just open the negotiating table because without it, no negotiations will happen, and that is worse than at least negotiating anything.
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The question now remains, what is EU going to do? It's incredibly likely Trump is going to lift sanctions on Russia any moment now, blaming Zelensky for not cooperating with his "peace dealings". At that point, EU can do one of a few things. A: Watch Ukraine burn. B: Sanction the US (Creating an economic war the world has never seen before, which would be disastrous for everyone's economy). C: Add further support to Ukraine directly.
Knowing how incredibly spineless our leaders are, I fear A is the most likely outcome. B is never going to happen (Besides being spineless, it would also make leaders incredibly unpopular, pretty much ensuring a loss in the next election), and I don't think C is likely seeing as Russia will now have the economy they need to continue this war for a much longer time, and we aren't willing to go "all-in" with the rest of our equipment.
I was so hoping I was wrong about Trump, especially when he didn't do anything about the situation for 3 weeks (Being busy destroying his own country instead). But even when I want to be proven wrong, I end up disappointed
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EPT
