EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 780
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:02 Uldridge wrote: If Europe has balls they just tell Trump to fuck off ASAP. Now is the time to act. You don't play chicken with ultimatists. I agree. I remain firm in my belief this whole situation is a blessing in disguise for Europe and the world as a whole. 1: Trump is showing the US to be so reckless and unreliable, you could argue the blanket of protection supposedly provided by the US is no longer real 2: The logistics and cost of the US "pulling out of Europe" is so astronomical it is basically impossible. At worst, it would mean the US leaving their European bases and handing the keys to each country's military. 3: Russia being granted all of their demands would guarantee their eventual ascension to commanding their own hegemony. It would end up similar to how things were/are with the US, where Russia would have so much soft power they could mostly run the planet and have their fingers in every matter. Europe always needing to bend the knee to Russia would just be an indirect way of being conquered It feels impossible for Europe to agree to Trump and Putin's demands. It would be so harmful to agree to these demands they may as well take whatever risk instead of that. But my honest 2 cents is that Europe is much more capable of meeting these dicey needs than they give themselves credit for. The threat of European nukes is enough to prevent anything major from happening in the next 10 years. The sudden absence and betrayal by the US would inject Europe with patriotism the same way we are seeing in Canada. In 10 years, with the cultural shock of all this, Europe would be strong enough to where they couldn't be bullied through soft power anymore. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21694 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18002 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21694 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:45 Acrofales wrote: Everything Trump has done has destroyed America's ability to project power. No this latest move is not strange, its 100% TrumpThe US giving up its European bases would be such a colossally stupid thing for them that I don't think even Trump is capable of it. The army bases around the world are not some charity that the US runs. It's literally how they project power. Pulling back the army is not a powerplay, it's the literal opposite. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:45 Acrofales wrote: The US giving up its European bases would be such a colossally stupid thing for them that I don't think even Trump is capable of it. The army bases around the world are not some charity that the US runs. It's literally how they project power. Pulling back the army is not a powerplay, it's the literal opposite. Even the most basic of things, like refueling, supplies, airbases, completely invalidate the idea. The closest it could ever come to reality is US personnel not being there permanently but continuing to use the bases whenever they need them. I would love to read the most staunchly pro Musk fans explain why this threat is even slightly based in reality. I really think we would need to dig into the deepest holes of the most depraved incel communities to find someone who could frame this as a credible threat. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5563 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:45 Acrofales wrote: The US giving up its European bases would be such a colossally stupid thing for them that I don't think even Trump is capable of it. The army bases around the world are not some charity that the US runs. It's literally how they project power. Pulling back the army is not a powerplay, it's the literal opposite. He is that stupid, imo. Or a genuine Russian asset/agent. On February 21 2025 09:06 Mohdoo wrote: Even the most basic of things, like refueling, supplies, airbases, completely invalidate the idea. The closest it could ever come to reality is US personnel not being there permanently but continuing to use the bases whenever they need them. I would love to read the most staunchly pro Musk fans explain why this threat is even slightly based in reality. I really think we would need to dig into the deepest holes of the most depraved incel communities to find someone who could frame this as a credible threat. Probably impossible, given current trajectory. If there is a deal, I hope we make America pay through the nose for it. Maybe then the MAGA idiots will understand that they weren't subsidizing shit. | ||
KwarK
United States42738 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:45 Acrofales wrote: The US giving up its European bases would be such a colossally stupid thing for them that I don't think even Trump is capable of it. The army bases around the world are not some charity that the US runs. It's literally how they project power. Pulling back the army is not a powerplay, it's the literal opposite. He literally already did that last term. His bag man drafted an order that commanded the military to pull out of the bases and then presented it to Trump to sign. Trump signed it. The bag man then delivered it to the joint chiefs to execute. They suspected it was some sort of fabrication, which it kinda was because the bagman just used a different EO as a template and then changed the wording, and went to the National Security Advisor to ask what to do. The National Security Advisor didn't know what to make of it because he wasn't aware of any plan to close all the bases and so eventually they had to go ask Trump what was going on. Trump confirmed it was his signature which made it a legitimate order but he didn't really understand the document. Eventually they all agreed to just shred it and move on. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25419 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:35 Gorsameth wrote: How is the US pulling out of Europe even a threat? There is no hostile force just itching to invade the moment the US leaves. The only nation that potentially could have is stuck in a 3+ year '3 day operation'. Which the US is seemingly in the process of pulling out of helping with anyway. The whole thing deeply confuses me, but hey. Or I suppose doesn’t confuse me at all. We’re not talking an economic superpower, nor a cultural one, nor a military one. We’re not talking some incredible untapped resource full of innovation just ready to be brought into the fold. I’m not really seeing an angle to justify all this pro-Russian movement, not just in the US but in areas of Europe as well that can really be couched in reasonable considered policy. It’s gotta be personal aggrandisement, the type you’re only gonna get from that kind of regime right? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
"Europe would agree to any American demand because they know US military bases in Europe are the only reason they haven't been invaded and captured already" If Trump thinks this is some ghastly threat that Europe knows would make them a piece of meat thrown into a shark tank, the threat makes sense. But I do truly think the folks at the pentagon will make sure Trump understands abandoning US bases would be among the most self-harming things we could ever do. I won't be surprised if this ends up retracted quickly. | ||
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KwarK
United States42738 Posts
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Yurie
11846 Posts
The current way of doing it is of course horrible PR, but the idea makes sense. Germany doesn't need US military in the next 20 years at least. So if I am the US, why am I paying for it? If Germany paid fully for it as a mercenary contract, fine. Bases you want are things like Cyprus, water based and nearer pain points in Africa. | ||
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KwarK
United States42738 Posts
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Yurie
11846 Posts
On February 21 2025 10:13 KwarK wrote: No. 0% chance the US defends Taiwan or SK from China either. The US pivot isn’t from one hemisphere to another, it’s a simple surrender of US hegemony. China can do what they like as long as the check clears. Well with Trump in office that is what will happen if China goes for it. But if you think about US overall strategy, ignoring the monkey in the office, it isn't a straight up bad idea. | ||
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KwarK
United States42738 Posts
On February 21 2025 10:16 Yurie wrote: Well with Trump in office that is what will happen if China goes for it. But if you think about US overall strategy, ignoring the monkey in the office, it isn't a straight up bad idea. With a resurgent and aggressive Russia you think alienating their closest allies in Europe isn’t a straight up bad idea? Biden’s plan was to rearm the US with foreign money, dump old military surplus, take over the most of the world’s arms export market, get other countries to crowdfund the F35, and destroy Russia with zero American casualties. The European alliance didn’t tie the US down in Europe, it brought European resources into the American led bloc. Every part of this is a calamity. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany966 Posts
On February 21 2025 08:45 Acrofales wrote: The US giving up its European bases would be such a colossally stupid thing for them that I don't think even Trump is capable of it. The army bases around the world are not some charity that the US runs. It's literally how they project power. Pulling back the army is not a powerplay, it's the literal opposite. Trump doesn't understand spent money on projecting power, he is going to do the Putin/Kim-jong Un approach and threaten everybody with nukes. I still like all Americans who dislike fashists, but Euro-Boomers have to fucking act now. Big Tech from US needs to get banned as being a strategic liablility. Just pirate the software until there is a home grown alternative. Especially Microsoft/Alphabet/Apple/AWS/Meta need to go. NOW. Seize the business, cut off the servers from the US and stop transfering licence fees. Make the Shareholders feel that their Asskissing CEOs are threatening their business model. Revoke working permits for US Expats and send them home. Terminate the lease for all US bases in Europe. Come together as NATO and discuss if the US needs to leave the treaty as the US legislators are doing nothing, the US judicacy is partisan, and the executive is grabbing more and more power thus practicly working itself out of being a democracy. | ||
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0x64
Finland4558 Posts
On February 21 2025 15:54 KT_Elwood wrote: Trump doesn't understand spent money on projecting power, he is going to do the Putin/Kim-jong Un approach and threaten everybody with nukes. I still like all Americans who dislike fashists, but Euro-Boomers have to fucking act now. Big Tech from US needs to get banned as being a strategic liablility. Just pirate the software until there is a home grown alternative. Especially Microsoft/Alphabet/Apple/AWS/Meta need to go. NOW. Seize the business, cut off the servers from the US and stop transfering licence fees. Make the Shareholders feel that their Asskissing CEOs are threatening their business model. Revoke working permits for US Expats and send them home. Terminate the lease for all US bases in Europe. Come together as NATO and discuss if the US needs to leave the treaty as the US legislators are doing nothing, the US judicacy is partisan, and the executive is grabbing more and more power thus practicly working itself out of being a democracy. I disagree, it's like with a victim of a narcissist. If you start telling you should live him and he is horrible. They will only cut relations and think the narcissist was right that no one loves them and then what he is doing makes sense. Doing what was right, was a thing of biden s time. Europe Will have 0 impact on what usa will do. When fascists are in power, even the neighboring country can't do anything. And the horror of fascism is that it gives the illusion that only those behaving badly are removed, but then that definition itself off behaving badly is slowly moved until too many of the country are indisposed, but when done right it can last for so long. I still believe USA will be fine after next elections. But yeah Russia and Ukraine situation will become absurd very fast. In a sense you are right that the EU should react fast and strong. But not against usa. Heavy military investments are required. Commando activities in Ukraine. Heavy Industrial help with drone tech. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany966 Posts
The economy and worse, most of bureaucracy would be heavily crippled if Trump EOs that BigTech has to seize operations in the EU without notice. So you need to do the China-way and kick it all out yourself to allow an indepentend alternative to grow. | ||
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Yurie
11846 Posts
On February 21 2025 10:25 KwarK wrote: With a resurgent and aggressive Russia you think alienating their closest allies in Europe isn’t a straight up bad idea? Biden’s plan was to rearm the US with foreign money, dump old military surplus, take over the most of the world’s arms export market, get other countries to crowdfund the F35, and destroy Russia with zero American casualties. The European alliance didn’t tie the US down in Europe, it brought European resources into the American led bloc. Every part of this is a calamity. I 100% agree that the current way of doing this is bad. I do not agree the idea of removing European bases is bad from a US point of view. If you do it over years with a lot of bilateral discussions on how to minimize impact and so on then I honestly think Europe would be upset but not upset enough to stop buying weapons. It would weaken relations but prior to Trump they were strong and could take that hit without any major impacts. The current way with Trump actively worsening relations and then proposing big changes unilaterally will of course worsen relations a lot. Risking US military sales long term as one example. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6931 Posts
On February 21 2025 10:11 Yurie wrote: I honestly think it is a good move for the US to negotiate the military bases in Europe. The US focus is more and more on China, having bases in Europe doesn't help much with that and is a cost. The current way of doing it is of course horrible PR, but the idea makes sense. Germany doesn't need US military in the next 20 years at least. So if I am the US, why am I paying for it? If Germany paid fully for it as a mercenary contract, fine. Bases you want are things like Cyprus, water based and nearer pain points in Africa. Pretty sure those US citizens that live in those bases don't want to leave. They live here. They have been for decades. They are not just stationed here. I'm curious who actually pays for what with those bases. Can't see the US paying rent, also can't really see Germany paying for the US beeing here. | ||
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