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On February 24 2025 09:21 Nebuchad wrote:
I perceive the complexity of the systems as largely manufactured. I do not believe that the important thing that changed between, say, 1960 and today is that humans changed. Systems changed, they became worse, and that reflects on what humans believe. Humans in a society will naturally perceive the options that are directly available to them as acceptable and practical, and the options that require a lot of work to achieve as idealistic and offputting. I firmly believe that if you had a two-party system of socialists and social democrats, the humans of 2024 would be having political discussions between socialism and social democrats. Of course I can't prove that but it seems to fit the evolution of society better.
Yes, absolutely. I think a lot of this type of discourse in general could be improved by considering human nature, and the very strong effects of history. A lot of it is also extremely insular, and for discussion in English, extremely American-centric.
I think the flipside of it is that things being so entrenched and in almost mystic ways makes it very difficult to change. It's like economists who pretend that markets immediately correct, without friction or inertia, anything unbalanced about them.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On February 24 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2025 08:55 WombaT wrote:On February 24 2025 07:05 Nebuchad wrote:On February 24 2025 06:44 WombaT wrote:On February 24 2025 06:12 Nebuchad wrote:On February 24 2025 04:47 Excludos wrote:On February 23 2025 05:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 22 2025 17:29 KT_Elwood wrote:Climate  change  Has completely vanished from german pre-election talking points. GOOD! The activists started fading into "real world" about a year ago, and the stance of the most likely "chancelor to be" Friedrich meRz (whom I don't like) is: "  Yeah, people realized that germany is putting out 2% of the worlds GHG emissions and only represent 1% of the world's population.. but How does it heLp to bring that down to 1% if we lose all our wealth and set a Bad example? Germany needs to invent a better model of harvesting energy, doing transportation etc. . Technology and a Way that other countries WanT and NEED to copy because it's more viable than BurNing through finite ressources." And I agree 101%. If you don't WanT to send troops to saudi arabia and norway, to blow up oilrigs, you need to present people an alternative. Otherwise every country you talk out of oil, will have 5 other countries taking the production because it's cheaper now. Yeah let’s not mention an existential crisis we have totally ignored for the last forty years. Let’s not change our lifestyle, let’s not rethink our model. Let’s keep pumping CO2 and keep asphyxiating our world, acidifying our oceans and make large portions of the earth, that just happened to be the most populated ones, uninhabitable in a couple of decades. And since we are being really that stupid, let’s in the same breath complain about migrants, because there won’t be any migrants when hundreds of millions don’t have a place to live once their countries are reduced to deserts. I think we are too dumb to make it as a species. That’s my conclusion from the last ten years and the last six months in particular. We are not gonna make it, and frankly, that’s fine. Might as well forget about it. We humans are completely and wholly incapable og being "slightly uncomfortable" to fix future problems. Just look at every current politician losing their elections because prices have gone up a little bit. Americans were willing to elect a leader who's sole purpose is to destroy their society for the gain of the already rich, all because of prices of eggs. It has to get much much worse before it can get better. And then pray it's not too late That's one way to look at it, the other is that the elite and their politicians were willing to risk destabilizing their entire society just so they wouldn't have to improve in any way the conditions for people who are impacted by the price of eggs. I think at some point the elite have to stop taking all the blame for our collective woes. Like, they don’t even really need to try anymore. Second there’s some slight bump in the road of almost any kind and big chunks of society gravitate to throwing others, or the resolution of tricky problems, under the bus. I don’t think people are giant assholes by and large either, I just wonder if there’s too many degrees of abstraction in this modern world. I also can’t blame folks for a degree of skepticism. They’d be more willing to suck up some privation if they had confidence that it would be for some future good. Whereas if the social contract has been ripped in half, set on fire and then the ashes pissed on, why would this time, or next time be any different? They currently aren't taking any of the blame so I think we're not at risk of them taking all of it  On an individual level obviously voting to make things worse is a bad decision and they're going to deserve blame for it. It's not very interesting though, we're just seeing that when people don't like the current state of things in a two party system, at the next opportunity given the guy from the other side gets elected, that just tends to happen. I don't think there's a lot of value to drawing big conclusions from something that has always happened happening again. I do agree that the situation is fucked up though, and I think I'm offering a better framing for getting mad at it. Taking the blame, and actually having consequences attached to that are two very different things. My framing is that one is dealing with extremely large, extremely complicated systems and some ascribe too much value to specific parts of those complex systems. I’d argue for example that Brexit, and both, or at least definitely 2016 were outcomes the elite as it were very much didn’t desire, but happened nonetheless. It’s a barrier that can be punched through. Or more widely we’ve tended to see some rejection of previous orthodoxy, but the right thru far right have generally been the beneficiaries in recent times across quite a few different places. Be they de facto 2 party systems, or multi-party ones that operate with proportional representation or whatever. Anyway my central contention isn’t to fire blame all over the shop, merely that Joe and Jane public bear plenty of responsibility as well as Joe and Jane CEO big party donor. Things have been actively moving in a direction that’s broadly for the worst for a fair chunk of time now, even in places where there are realistic alternatives. Brexit was very much desired by the elite, just not the British elite.
What elite though?
Europe didn’t by and large want us to fuck off, the US establishment of the time either. Obama made that abundantly clear when he shot down ideas of a bilateral trade agreement and saying we’d be at the ‘back of the queue’ if we exited.
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United States43450 Posts
On February 24 2025 10:22 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2025 09:48 KwarK wrote:On February 24 2025 08:55 WombaT wrote:On February 24 2025 07:05 Nebuchad wrote:On February 24 2025 06:44 WombaT wrote:On February 24 2025 06:12 Nebuchad wrote:On February 24 2025 04:47 Excludos wrote:On February 23 2025 05:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 22 2025 17:29 KT_Elwood wrote:Climate change Has completely vanished from german pre-election talking points. GOOD! The activists started fading into "real world" about a year ago, and the stance of the most likely "chancelor to be" Friedrich meRz (whom I don't like) is: " Yeah, people realized that germany is putting out 2% of the worlds GHG emissions and only represent 1% of the world's population.. but How does it heLp to bring that down to 1% if we lose all our wealth and set a Bad example? Germany needs to invent a better model of harvesting energy, doing transportation etc. . Technology and a Way that other countries WanT and NEED to copy because it's more viable than BurNing through finite ressources." And I agree 101%. If you don't WanT to send troops to saudi arabia and norway, to blow up oilrigs, you need to present people an alternative. Otherwise every country you talk out of oil, will have 5 other countries taking the production because it's cheaper now. Yeah let’s not mention an existential crisis we have totally ignored for the last forty years. Let’s not change our lifestyle, let’s not rethink our model. Let’s keep pumping CO2 and keep asphyxiating our world, acidifying our oceans and make large portions of the earth, that just happened to be the most populated ones, uninhabitable in a couple of decades. And since we are being really that stupid, let’s in the same breath complain about migrants, because there won’t be any migrants when hundreds of millions don’t have a place to live once their countries are reduced to deserts. I think we are too dumb to make it as a species. That’s my conclusion from the last ten years and the last six months in particular. We are not gonna make it, and frankly, that’s fine. Might as well forget about it. We humans are completely and wholly incapable og being "slightly uncomfortable" to fix future problems. Just look at every current politician losing their elections because prices have gone up a little bit. Americans were willing to elect a leader who's sole purpose is to destroy their society for the gain of the already rich, all because of prices of eggs. It has to get much much worse before it can get better. And then pray it's not too late That's one way to look at it, the other is that the elite and their politicians were willing to risk destabilizing their entire society just so they wouldn't have to improve in any way the conditions for people who are impacted by the price of eggs. I think at some point the elite have to stop taking all the blame for our collective woes. Like, they don’t even really need to try anymore. Second there’s some slight bump in the road of almost any kind and big chunks of society gravitate to throwing others, or the resolution of tricky problems, under the bus. I don’t think people are giant assholes by and large either, I just wonder if there’s too many degrees of abstraction in this modern world. I also can’t blame folks for a degree of skepticism. They’d be more willing to suck up some privation if they had confidence that it would be for some future good. Whereas if the social contract has been ripped in half, set on fire and then the ashes pissed on, why would this time, or next time be any different? They currently aren't taking any of the blame so I think we're not at risk of them taking all of it On an individual level obviously voting to make things worse is a bad decision and they're going to deserve blame for it. It's not very interesting though, we're just seeing that when people don't like the current state of things in a two party system, at the next opportunity given the guy from the other side gets elected, that just tends to happen. I don't think there's a lot of value to drawing big conclusions from something that has always happened happening again. I do agree that the situation is fucked up though, and I think I'm offering a better framing for getting mad at it. Taking the blame, and actually having consequences attached to that are two very different things. My framing is that one is dealing with extremely large, extremely complicated systems and some ascribe too much value to specific parts of those complex systems. I’d argue for example that Brexit, and both, or at least definitely 2016 were outcomes the elite as it were very much didn’t desire, but happened nonetheless. It’s a barrier that can be punched through. Or more widely we’ve tended to see some rejection of previous orthodoxy, but the right thru far right have generally been the beneficiaries in recent times across quite a few different places. Be they de facto 2 party systems, or multi-party ones that operate with proportional representation or whatever. Anyway my central contention isn’t to fire blame all over the shop, merely that Joe and Jane public bear plenty of responsibility as well as Joe and Jane CEO big party donor. Things have been actively moving in a direction that’s broadly for the worst for a fair chunk of time now, even in places where there are realistic alternatives. Brexit was very much desired by the elite, just not the British elite. What elite though? Europe didn’t by and large want us to fuck off, the US establishment of the time either. Obama made that abundantly clear when he shot down ideas of a bilateral trade agreement and saying we’d be at the ‘back of the queue’ if we exited.
Putin.
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The end of the war is coming : The pride is for Ukraine - The land is for Russia - The resource is for USA - The immigrant is for Europe.
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On February 24 2025 06:05 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2025 04:47 Excludos wrote:On February 23 2025 05:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:On February 22 2025 17:29 KT_Elwood wrote:Climate change Has completely vanished from german pre-election talking points. GOOD! The activists started fading into "real world" about a year ago, and the stance of the most likely "chancelor to be" Friedrich meRz (whom I don't like) is: " Yeah, people realized that germany is putting out 2% of the worlds GHG emissions and only represent 1% of the world's population.. but How does it heLp to bring that down to 1% if we lose all our wealth and set a Bad example? Germany needs to invent a better model of harvesting energy, doing transportation etc. . Technology and a Way that other countries WanT and NEED to copy because it's more viable than BurNing through finite ressources." And I agree 101%. If you don't WanT to send troops to saudi arabia and norway, to blow up oilrigs, you need to present people an alternative. Otherwise every country you talk out of oil, will have 5 other countries taking the production because it's cheaper now. Yeah let’s not mention an existential crisis we have totally ignored for the last forty years. Let’s not change our lifestyle, let’s not rethink our model. Let’s keep pumping CO2 and keep asphyxiating our world, acidifying our oceans and make large portions of the earth, that just happened to be the most populated ones, uninhabitable in a couple of decades. And since we are being really that stupid, let’s in the same breath complain about migrants, because there won’t be any migrants when hundreds of millions don’t have a place to live once their countries are reduced to deserts. I think we are too dumb to make it as a species. That’s my conclusion from the last ten years and the last six months in particular. We are not gonna make it, and frankly, that’s fine. Might as well forget about it. We humans are completely and wholly incapable og being "slightly uncomfortable" to fix future problems. Just look at every current politician losing their elections because prices have gone up a little bit. Americans were willing to elect a leader who's sole purpose is to destroy their society for the gain of the already rich, all because of prices of eggs. It has to get much much worse before it can get better. And then pray it's not too late I do hope that the US can get a grip on themselves and maybe impeach Trump (again) before everything will go down the drain. I'm not a fan of the US global hegemony but I'm also aware that currently there are no other alternatives and if the US will go down it'll basically destabilize the entire world. I'm not really keen on seeing BRICS actually work and get on top of things. That would be a disaster. Thankfully China isn't doing so hot either right now but it's not really a topic for this thread.
BRICS will fall apart as soon as US hegemony ends because these countries really have not enough common interest beyond breaking US/Western hegemony. Even now, BRICS is far from an alliance.
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On March 01 2025 00:34 geod wrote:
The end of the war is coming : The pride is for Ukraine - The land is for Russia - The resource is for USA - The immigrant is for Europe.
Sure, buddy.
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On March 01 2025 00:34 geod wrote:
The end of the war is coming : The pride is for Ukraine - The land is for Russia - The resource is for USA - The immigrant is for Europe.
That aged badly
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Zelensky didn't want to leave. Rubio couldn't/didn't stop it.
Trump consulted Vice President JD Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio Rubio, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his other top advisers after the dramatic showdown where Trump and Vance accused Zelensky of being ungrateful for US aid, according to a White House official.
That was when Trump ultimately decided that Zelensky was “not in a place to negotiate.” He directed Rubio and his national security adviser Mike Waltz to deliver the message: it was time for Zelensky to leave.
The Ukrainians were holding nearby in a separate room, which is standard when a foreign leader visits. Typically, they go to other rooms, then reconvene for lunch. But the Ukrainians would not be dining at the White House. As the prepared food sat nearby on carts in a hallway outside the press secretary’s office, the Ukrainians were instructed to leave.
The White House official said the Ukrainians protested and wanted to continue the talks. But they were told no.
Zelensky left shortly thereafter.
www.cnn.com
Zelensky did end up thanking Trump (sarcastically?): + Show Spoiler +
That doesn't seem good.
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Ukraine and Europe will have to win this war without the US. I hope we pivot away from US-made weapons completely. America can't be trusted.
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On March 01 2025 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Zelensky didn't want to leave. Rubio couldn't/didn't stop it. Show nested quote +Trump consulted Vice President JD Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio Rubio, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his other top advisers after the dramatic showdown where Trump and Vance accused Zelensky of being ungrateful for US aid, according to a White House official.
That was when Trump ultimately decided that Zelensky was “not in a place to negotiate.” He directed Rubio and his national security adviser Mike Waltz to deliver the message: it was time for Zelensky to leave.
The Ukrainians were holding nearby in a separate room, which is standard when a foreign leader visits. Typically, they go to other rooms, then reconvene for lunch. But the Ukrainians would not be dining at the White House. As the prepared food sat nearby on carts in a hallway outside the press secretary’s office, the Ukrainians were instructed to leave.
The White House official said the Ukrainians protested and wanted to continue the talks. But they were told no.
Zelensky left shortly thereafter. www.cnn.comZelensky did end up thanking Trump (sarcastically?): + Show Spoiler +That doesn't seem good.
I don't think that's sarcastic. It may not be what he feels. But it's no doubt what he feels his country needs. If the US wants Ukraine to show gratitude, those are easy words to tweet. I think there is very little Zelenskyy won't do if he believes it'll help Ukraine. Will this tweet in particular resolve the trainwreck of a presser? No. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to have been anything Zelenskyy could've said or done during that press conference to salvage it. That was designed to go off the rails from the moment Vance opened his mouth and Trump agreed with him. Zelenskyy getting on his knees and thanking JD Vance personally for his magnanimity would only have resulted in Vance moving the goalpost.
This tweet seems like the correct response. It reiterates a constructive attitude. Him probably personally wishing very very much to do extreme violence to Vance and Trump did not get in the way of his statesmanship.
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On March 01 2025 04:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2025 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Zelensky didn't want to leave. Rubio couldn't/didn't stop it. Trump consulted Vice President JD Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio Rubio, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and his other top advisers after the dramatic showdown where Trump and Vance accused Zelensky of being ungrateful for US aid, according to a White House official.
That was when Trump ultimately decided that Zelensky was “not in a place to negotiate.” He directed Rubio and his national security adviser Mike Waltz to deliver the message: it was time for Zelensky to leave.
The Ukrainians were holding nearby in a separate room, which is standard when a foreign leader visits. Typically, they go to other rooms, then reconvene for lunch. But the Ukrainians would not be dining at the White House. As the prepared food sat nearby on carts in a hallway outside the press secretary’s office, the Ukrainians were instructed to leave.
The White House official said the Ukrainians protested and wanted to continue the talks. But they were told no.
Zelensky left shortly thereafter. www.cnn.comZelensky did end up thanking Trump (sarcastically?): + Show Spoiler +That doesn't seem good. I don't think that's sarcastic. It may not be what he feels. But it's no doubt what he feels his country needs. If the US wants Ukraine to show gratitude, those are easy words to tweet. I think there is very little Zelenskyy won't do if he believes it'll help Ukraine. Will this tweet in particular resolve the trainwreck of a presser? No. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to have been anything Zelenskyy could've said or done during that press conference to salvage it. That was designed to go off the rails from the moment Vance opened his mouth and Trump agreed with him. Zelenskyy getting on his knees and thanking JD Vance personally for his magnanimity would only have resulted in Vance moving the goalpost. This tweet seems like the correct response. It reiterates a constructive attitude. Him probably personally wishing very very much to do extreme violence to Vance and Trump did not get in the way of his statesmanship.
Seems accurate enough generally, though I imagine there was a level of obsequiousness somewhere between the tweet and literally licking their shoes that they both would have found acceptable.
As for the bold, maaaan, coulda been an international hero multiple times over.
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The tweet does seem to be the correct response but Zelensky's reaction to Vance's attack was not. I think he should just alt f4 out of the conversation instead of trying to fight the hostile environment of that room.
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On March 01 2025 04:52 maybenexttime wrote:
Ukraine and Europe will have to win this war without the US. I hope we pivot away from US-made weapons completely. America can't be trusted.
The big question is if Trump lifts sanctions to breath extra life into the struggling Russian economy.
People actually voted for these diplomatic idiots. They forget that Russia is an empire by nature, and will use every opportunity to expand.
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On March 01 2025 05:14 Sent. wrote:
The tweet does seem to be the correct response but Zelensky's reaction to Vance's attack was not. I think he should just alt f4 out of the conversation instead of trying to fight the hostile environment of that room.
I think he is singularly focused on one thing: Ukraine's survival and reducing the suffering of Ukrainians. I think this is all positive in that regard. It was hard for me to watch, but Zelensky handled it quite well. Just a wild situation.
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If this meltdown wasn't staged then Ukraine has now to count mostly on Europe.
Brave decision considering the odds.
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On March 01 2025 06:40 pmp10 wrote:
If this meltdown wasn't staged then Ukraine has now to count mostly on Europe.
Brave decision considering the odds.
It was interesting to say the least. Trying to read between the lines, here are 2 separate theories for why today went so horribly:
1: US intelligence suggests Ukraine is actually screwed without the US and even if Europe tried to help, they would not succeed in defending Ukraine. Because of this, they can easily just stick to their extremely unfair demands regarding rare earth minerals and other demands of Ukraine. Trump is being hostile and terrible because he knows if he keeps at it, it will be an unbelievably large benefit to the US. The economic benefits to the US would be staggering and he knows all he needs to do is hold the line and Zelensky will have a choice between the country being wiped out or accepting the shark loan
2: Trump is using Ukraine to show Europe/Canada/Mexico he will absolutely go scorched earth and let the world burn if his demands are not met. All of this posturing is for the sake of his larger global aspirations rather than Ukraine in particular. And in reality, Trump and the US military could basically step back in at any point and completely turn the tides and prevent Ukraine from collapsing. So you could argue even if Trump does abandon Ukraine and cause them immense harm, none of this is permanent and none of it means Trump could never decide to step in later.
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On March 01 2025 08:16 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2025 06:40 pmp10 wrote:
If this meltdown wasn't staged then Ukraine has now to count mostly on Europe.
Brave decision considering the odds.
It was interesting to say the least. Trying to read between the lines, here are 2 separate theories for why today went so horribly: 1: US intelligence suggests Ukraine is actually screwed without the US and even if Europe tried to help, they would not succeed in defending Ukraine. Because of this, they can easily just stick to their extremely unfair demands regarding rare earth minerals and other demands of Ukraine. Trump is being hostile and terrible because he knows if he keeps at it, it will be an unbelievably large benefit to the US. The economic benefits to the US would be staggering and he knows all he needs to do is hold the line and Zelensky will have a choice between the country being wiped out or accepting the shark loan 2: Trump is using Ukraine to show Europe/Canada/Mexico he will absolutely go scorched earth and let the world burn if his demands are not met. All of this posturing is for the sake of his larger global aspirations rather than Ukraine in particular. And in reality, Trump and the US military could basically step back in at any point and completely turn the tides and prevent Ukraine from collapsing. So you could argue even if Trump does abandon Ukraine and cause them immense harm, none of this is permanent and none of it means Trump could never decide to step in later.
3: Trump has chosen to side with Russia in this conflict, as Russia aligns better with his real values. Russia is also delighted that the bonds between the US and Europe are getting weaker, while Trump is so far failing to see the massive benefits NATO has for them.
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On March 01 2025 08:16 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2025 06:40 pmp10 wrote:
If this meltdown wasn't staged then Ukraine has now to count mostly on Europe.
Brave decision considering the odds.
It was interesting to say the least. Trying to read between the lines, here are 2 separate theories for why today went so horribly: 1: US intelligence suggests Ukraine is actually screwed without the US and even if Europe tried to help, they would not succeed in defending Ukraine. Because of this, they can easily just stick to their extremely unfair demands regarding rare earth minerals and other demands of Ukraine. Trump is being hostile and terrible because he knows if he keeps at it, it will be an unbelievably large benefit to the US. The economic benefits to the US would be staggering and he knows all he needs to do is hold the line and Zelensky will have a choice between the country being wiped out or accepting the shark loan 2: Trump is using Ukraine to show Europe/Canada/Mexico he will absolutely go scorched earth and let the world burn if his demands are not met. All of this posturing is for the sake of his larger global aspirations rather than Ukraine in particular. And in reality, Trump and the US military could basically step back in at any point and completely turn the tides and prevent Ukraine from collapsing. So you could argue even if Trump does abandon Ukraine and cause them immense harm, none of this is permanent and none of it means Trump could never decide to step in later.
You think Trump is playing some 4D chess. In fact, he's the proverbial pigeon shitting on the chessboard.
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EPT
