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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house.
Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide.
When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim.
The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them.
As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis.
You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw.
The way israel works in the gaza is the same as it is in the west bank, the step by steps approach while conserving a strategic and political ambiguity.
As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird.
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United States43966 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird.
I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on.
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On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on.
Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about
What’s he negating?
If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them?
It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position.
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United States43966 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about
FYI negationist doesn’t really work as an insult when the person doesn’t believe in the thing. I’m not negating a genocide, there isn’t a genocide.
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On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position.
Well yeah that's why I believe that it doesn't make a ton of sense to assert that it isn't going to happen.
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On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position.
This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military.
The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch.
What does this current admin allow, we shall see.
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On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see.
I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not.
So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically.
I agree we will have to wait to see what the admin switch does. Bibi seems to love Trump so whether that means it will get "worse" because he will do even more or whether it will be "better" because he wants to give Trump the win at home, time will tell. In my opinion neither choice will have anything to do with what is better for any of the civilians.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:58 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see. I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not. So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically. I agree we will have to wait to see what the admin switch does. Bibi seems to love Trump so whether that means it will get "worse" because he will do even more or whether it will be "better" because he wants to give Trump the win at home, time will tell. In my opinion neither choice will have anything to do with what is better for any of the civilians.
Most people don’t claim Israel wants to exterminate the populace, just be hardline enough to push them out and seize territory.
Can you just call him Netanyahu rather than his pet name?
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United States43966 Posts
On November 14 2024 05:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:58 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see. I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not. So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically. I agree we will have to wait to see what the admin switch does. Bibi seems to love Trump so whether that means it will get "worse" because he will do even more or whether it will be "better" because he wants to give Trump the win at home, time will tell. In my opinion neither choice will have anything to do with what is better for any of the civilians. Most people don’t claim Israel wants to exterminate the populace, just be hardline enough to push them out and seize territory. Can you just call him Netanyahu rather than his pet name?
Push them out where? Egypt shoots anyone trying to cross that border. Meanwhile the population of Gaza balloons.
The idea that Israel has some sort of plan to depopulate Gaza fails to pass any kind of logical scrutiny. It’d make more sense if you claimed Gaza was some kind of breeding program because at least then you could reconcile it with the observable demographics.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 05:07 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 05:02 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:58 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants.
Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances.
The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see. I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not. So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically. I agree we will have to wait to see what the admin switch does. Bibi seems to love Trump so whether that means it will get "worse" because he will do even more or whether it will be "better" because he wants to give Trump the win at home, time will tell. In my opinion neither choice will have anything to do with what is better for any of the civilians. Most people don’t claim Israel wants to exterminate the populace, just be hardline enough to push them out and seize territory. Can you just call him Netanyahu rather than his pet name? Push them out where? Egypt shoots anyone trying to cross that border. Meanwhile the population of Gaza balloons. The idea that Israel has some sort of plan to depopulate Gaza fails to pass any kind of logical scrutiny. It’d make more sense if you claimed Gaza was some kind of breeding program because at least then you could reconcile it with the observable demographics.
I wasn’t specifically talking Gaza but the broader settlement and expansion policy.
‘Push them out where?’ an interesting question, also not one I feel current majority Israeli political opinion is that bothered about figuring out
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On November 14 2024 04:58 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see. I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not. So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically.
This isn't contradictory, the "either or" doesn't work.
The government of Israel clearly wants to remove all Palestinians, as they frequently are quoted as saying. It is in line with their actions, their rhetoric, their history and their ideology. It would be weird if they didn't want to do it. The US isn't stopping them from doing that in the way that they're doing it right now, but they have stopped them from doing it in other ways in the past. It isn't illogical for Netanyahu to believe that if he did the genocide in a way that was impossible for Biden to deny, even insincerely, then he wouldn't be allowed to do it. You may question whether he is correct that he is walking a line, that's a question I can't answer. It could be that Biden would let him do anything, I don't know. All I know is that's different from a contradiction.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 05:15 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 04:58 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:50 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:44 Billyboy wrote:On November 14 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On November 14 2024 04:29 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 14 2024 04:26 stilt wrote:On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote:The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. Pretty rich coming from a negationnist who bets on the possibility of a genocide. When has Israel ever be nice toward "gaza" ? Could you please give me some sources about it ? You know, rather than your incessant baseless claim. The fact you think you have any kind of knowledge about the politics sociology and culture of the "arab world" as you call it is a textbook dunning kruger effect. You're never been there, never read them and don't know any of them. As for the israeli wish to plan a long term coexistence with their neighbour, do you have any sources then which contradicts mine ? From their wall of separation to their siege of gaza and their atrocities in the west bank, your claim that israelis want a peaceful coexistence with the palestinians is once again baseless and contredicts claims of said israelis. You generally don't murder every civilians residing in the dmz regardless which is what israel is accused to do while still preventing access to journalists btw. As far as atrocities go, it's the israeli who are daily shooting at children and slaughtering them with bombs, having a negationnist stance on that is pretty weird. I bet against genocide buddy. That’s the side you want to be on. Because you are a negationnist who has strictly no idea about what he is talking about What’s he negating? If Israel wants to go full genocide, who’s stopping them? It’s not a value judgement, but you’ve the one nation that has the biggest leverage with Israel now having a much more pro-Israeli position. This points out one of the commonly held beliefs on this thread that contradicts itself. People believe it is true that Israel wants to completely eradicate the Gazan's and people of the Westbank AND that the US is doing nothing to slow or stop the Israelis. Either could be true, but both can not because if both were true we would see the Israelis operate like the Russians instead of like a western military. The previous admin was deficient to that sensibility in ways, they still wouldn’t allow that on their watch. What does this current admin allow, we shall see. I'm not saying the US has full control or that they have no control. It is just that you can't hold the belief that Israel wants genocide and that the US is not stopping them. Because if that was both true these already way to high numbers would be 100x higher. It would be worse than Syria because Israel has a way better military and better tech. But it is not. So either Israel does not want to exterminate them all, or the US is holding them back very dramatically. This isn't contradictory, the "either or" doesn't work. The government of Israel clearly wants to remove all Palestinians, as they frequently are quoted as saying. It is in line with their actions, their rhetoric, their history and their ideology. It would be weird if they didn't want to do it. The US isn't stopping them from doing that in the way that they're doing it right now, but they have stopped them from doing it in other ways in the past. It isn't illogical for Netanyahu to believe that if he did the genocide in a way that was impossible for Biden to deny, even insincerely, then he wouldn't be allowed to do it. You may question whether he is correct that he is walking a line, that's a question I can't answer. It could be that Biden would let him do anything, I don't know. All I know is that's different from a contradiction.
Take away the whole Israeli/Jewish thing and defenders wouldn’t defend.
People will defend Israel and whine about Trump, despite Israel travelling on the exact same trajectory. Or an Orban in Hungary, or Erdogan further East
Do people dislike nationalism and jingoism or not? Pick a lane
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On November 14 2024 05:15 Nebuchad wrote:
The government of Israel clearly wants to remove all Palestinians, as they frequently are quoted as saying. .
Meh.
So they are all powerful but somehow did hand gaza to Palis in 2006/7.. only to hamas immediately grab power and funnel all international aid and external money into fighting israel for 17 years, peaking in a terrorist raid in flipflops.
Now Israel is both are all evil and powerful, yet instead of cheaply clusterbombing the multiple launch sites everywhere in gaza... they don't bring down the price of tomatoes, which is considered to be genocide by some french scholar.
Hamas on OCT7th gave people like Netanyahu the perfect ramp to start an all out war against them. Like the Nazis in germany, the combatants and ideologist cling to the civil population like shit to a boot and can claim "war crime nanananana naaah!" for every hit against them, because it most likely has caused civilian casualties - completely fucking ignoring that their Terror raid had some 1280 to 20 ration in killed civilians over soldiers.
Egypt shoots palis if they try to enter egypt - they don't fucking want them in their country, they don't want to be at war with israel, they don't want to be south-west lebanon, they don't want an islamic terror organization to dig in and hide between their civilians shooting useless junk rockets for a century.
It's a damn anti-Israel ideology of hamas and low-key muslim traditionalist anti-semitisem that somehow propels the idea through generations, that this god forsaken strip of land needs to be owned by arabs, preferebly muslims.
The smart thing to do would be to lay down weapons, migrate to israel, mix up with jews, and just share the damn country..which is at large superior in technology, economy, equality and safety to any of it's neighbor shitholes (despite the racists and religious zealots)
But as I said - the brass of hamas, and exile leaders, doesn't want the war to stop, because they immediately will become useless, powerless, jobless.
And people everywhere in the world keep falling for their narrative.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
Do you actually believe the Israeli state would be OK with a flood of new Arab voters?
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As a flood? Now? No. This is why a "one state" solution can't be happening ad hoc, at least not with a netanyahu at the helm.
This isn't a "Now" solution, this would have been a 20 year plan that could have startet 17 years ago like when israel trusted gaza back to the palestinians...trusted them to cross over to israel for work or vacation, no damn rockets, no damn cars or knives for 17 years would have helped.
I often get misread when I compare the forming of israel to basicly any big human migration movement... the superior (not geneticly..but in numbers, technology, wealth, organization whatever..) faction will replace the old or even native human population.
It just happened in the 20th century, not "long ago, so we can't be mad about it comfortably"
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On November 14 2024 06:18 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 05:15 Nebuchad wrote:
The government of Israel clearly wants to remove all Palestinians, as they frequently are quoted as saying. . Meh.
Fascinating post Elwood, unfortunately I remember that one month ago you were talking about how it would be the best outcome if we let Israel take all of Palestine as it wants to do, so I'm not inclined to take you seriously now.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On November 14 2024 06:36 KT_Elwood wrote:
As a flood? Now? No. This is why a "one state" solution can't be happening ad hoc, at least not with a netanyahu at the helm.
This isn't a "Now" solution, this would have been a 20 year plan that could have startet 17 years ago like when israel trusted gaza back to the palestinians...trusted them to cross over to israel for work or vacation, no damn rockets, no damn cars or knives for 17 years would have helped.
I often get misread when I compare the forming of israel to basicly any big human migration movement... the superior (not geneticly..but in numbers, technology, wealth, organization whatever..) faction will replace the old or even native human population.
It just happened in the 20th century, not "long ago, so we can't be mad about it comfortably"
A 20 year peace plan requires a 20 year peace plan.
Has Israel done this, or indeed trended in that direction?
Folks advocating for a one state solution have to be honest and realistic on what that looks like.
My personal position is that Israel is OK with a domestic population, until that said population is big enough to offset de facto Jewish political hegemony
They won’t necessarily disenfranchise an Arab minority, but minority is the instructive word there.
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On November 14 2024 06:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2024 06:18 KT_Elwood wrote:On November 14 2024 05:15 Nebuchad wrote:
The government of Israel clearly wants to remove all Palestinians, as they frequently are quoted as saying. . Meh. Fascinating post Elwood, unfortunately I remember that one month ago you were talking about how it would be the best outcome if we let Israel take all of Palestine as it wants to do, so I'm not inclined to take you seriously now.
Nuance: The idea was that there will be occupation that will work like occupation of germany and austria post world war II.
Local population keeps their land - but governance and security will be provided by israel, and slowly released to a non-terrorist authority.
Now Netanyahu got rid of Galant, and gets a evangelical nutjob as liason to US, there is no guarantee that occupation won't mean displacement of arabs in favor of settlers.
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