EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 372
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Byo
Canada207 Posts
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 14 2024 02:38 Mohdoo wrote: Who in Trump's cabinet do you think would say "wait, we shouldn't do that"? And you could argue they wouldn't need to actually go through with it. If they provided Israel with the bombs needed to do some grotesque show of force where they killed like 200K people in a single night, that would be all the proof they need they are serious about moving on from this conflict and relocating Palestinians. Trump is purging "woke" generals. So no back talk from them. How about his cabinet? Trump himself? I don't think people should assume this isn't possible. We have already seen these folks mean what they say. What is the decision chain where someone in the Israeli government says that they want to place a purchase order for two million doses of zyklon b? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18050 Posts
On November 14 2024 02:43 Mohdoo wrote: When you guys say you can't see it happening, who in the decision making chain are you saying will say "no"? Who do you imagine as opposing this? I understand the reflex to assume that. I would assume that in any other situation. 1: Trump will replace all the generals who don't agree with him 2: His entire cabinet would love to see Palestinians wiped out So where does that leave us? What stops this? Eh, someone will at some point remind Trump that this'll mean he would be remembered as a facilitator of genocide. As the Chamberlain of the war, not the Churchill. His narcissism would explode and he'd tell Bibi to stop making him look bad. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15713 Posts
On November 14 2024 02:55 Acrofales wrote: Eh, someone will at some point remind Trump that this'll mean he would be remembered as a facilitator of genocide. As the Chamberlain of the war, not the Churchill. His narcissism would explode and he'd tell Bibi to stop making him look bad. Mike Huckabee: “There are certain words I refuse to use. There is no such thing as a West Bank. It’s Judea and Samaria. There’s no such thing as a settlement. They’re communities, they’re neighborhoods, they’re cities. There’s no such thing as an occupation,” I think you need to keep in mind there are people in Trump's circle who view Palestinians as invaders. "Remember ISIS? We need to do to Hamas what we did to ISIS. Both are Muslim terrorists". Remember the Muslim ban? Trump already hates them. His cabinet hates them. There's just no one who would even use the term genocide. They'd use the term "liberation". | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18050 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:01 Mohdoo wrote: Mike Huckabee: “There are certain words I refuse to use. There is no such thing as a West Bank. It’s Judea and Samaria. There’s no such thing as a settlement. They’re communities, they’re neighborhoods, they’re cities. There’s no such thing as an occupation,” I think you need to keep in mind there are people in Trump's circle who view Palestinians as invaders. "Remember ISIS? We need to do to Hamas what we did to ISIS. Both are Muslim terrorists". Remember the Muslim ban? Trump already hates them. His cabinet hates them. There's just no one who would even use the term genocide. They'd use the term "liberation". Ursula von der Leyen could phone him. Or Keir Starmer. Or Erdogan or MBS if he's only interested in listening to totalitarian rulers. | ||
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25656 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15713 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:11 KwarK wrote: Mohdoo, honestly the way you talk about it sounds almost like you've fetishized the idea of genocide. The whole "but what if the US gave Israel a bomb that could kill like 200k people in one go and what if Israel was like yeah, let's do this as a show of strength". To me it reads like you're writing one handed while desperately wanking with the other. It's so fantastical but you're so weirdly into it, like you have a need for the way imagining that makes you feel. I am not saying its a good thing. I am saying people are misguided and naive to assume there is some divine hand that will make sure Palestinians are treated like humans. The entire reason the Holocaust happened was terribly evil shit can totally happen if no one prevents it. Same with all the other various genocides. The fact that we can compare the Palestinian situation to so many other situations in history is proof these things do indeed happen. I think people are doing a disservice to Palestinians by pretending there is some invisible wall preventing actual, full-ass genocide. You guys are approaching this like there is some drop down menu and "kill all of them" is grayed out and can't be clicked. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21788 Posts
On November 14 2024 02:43 Mohdoo wrote: The same thing that has been stopping it from happening the last 13 months?When you guys say you can't see it happening, who in the decision making chain are you saying will say "no"? Who do you imagine as opposing this? I understand the reflex to assume that. I would assume that in any other situation. 1: Trump will replace all the generals who don't agree with him 2: His entire cabinet would love to see Palestinians wiped out So where does that leave us? What stops this? Israel doesn't mind killing 100 civilians to kill 1 suspected terrorist, that has been the case until now and that will remain the case. And Israel happily removed Palestinians from land before, and will continue to do so. But full on extermination is a big step further and brings a lot more international attention then it is worth. Sure Trump won't stop him, but the US is not the only country in the world. What is the difference between Biden or Trump in the White House? Biden got Israel to wait a little longer before attacking Rafah for example. Trump wouldn't do that so more refugees would die as a result. doesn't mean we will see extermination camps popping up all around gaza. | ||
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:17 Mohdoo wrote: I am not saying its a good thing. I am saying people are misguided and naive to assume there is some divine hand that will make sure Palestinians are treated like humans. The entire reason the Holocaust happened was terribly evil shit can totally happen if no one prevents it. Same with all the other various genocides. The fact that we can compare the Palestinian situation to so many other situations in history is proof these things do indeed happen. I think people are doing a disservice to Palestinians by pretending there is some invisible wall preventing actual, full-ass genocide. You guys are approaching this like there is some drop down menu and "kill all of them" is grayed out and can't be clicked. There's also no invisible wall preventing Trump, Vance, and Musk having a threeway livestreamed on social media but you don't see anyone going "yeah, I'm not saying it's likely but it's not impossible and like imagine if it happened, who would be where, personally I think...". It's a super weird super unlikely scenario and the desperation in your tone when you talk about it is very offputting. | ||
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Billyboy
1114 Posts
On November 14 2024 02:42 Gorsameth wrote: I don't see directly annexing or exterminating Gaza as happening but I can very much see a West bank situation happening where settlements keep taking more and more land while Palestinians are driven into an ever smaller corner. As long as Bibi stays in power and needs the even further right to bolster his support, I agree. They are not quite the government subsidized colonies like China is building in Bhutan, but similar idea. The big difference being I do not see the political will to go full "reeducation centers" like China did with the Uighurs. Hard to say where it will all go. Most of the hope is that Israel is still a democracy and as Kwark pointed out the Palestinians living the best are those with Israeli passports and they have some say as well. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15713 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:25 KwarK wrote: There's also no invisible wall preventing Trump, Vance, and Musk having a threeway livestreamed on social media but you don't see anyone going "yeah, I'm not saying it's likely but it's not impossible and like imagine if it happened, who would be where, personally I think...". It's a super weird super unlikely scenario and the desperation in your tone when you talk about it is very offputting. shrug, i think we just see it as different % chance of happening. I don't think Palestinians will be living in Gaza 4 years from now. I don't think Israel will go through with it. But I do think muslim nations will realize Israel and the US are serious and they'll lead an effort to emergency relocate Palestinians. What I imagine is more so a bunch of clear signs the gloves are off and some major, major death numbers out of big strikes. Maybe even electricity cut again and stuff like that. In a inhumane twist, Palestinians will basically be held hostage until their neighbors come get them | ||
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:32 Mohdoo wrote: shrug, i think we just see it as different % chance of happening. I don't think Palestinians will be living in Gaza 4 years from now. I don't think Israel will go through with it. But I do think muslim nations will realize Israel and the US are serious and they'll lead an effort to emergency relocate Palestinians. What I imagine is more so a bunch of clear signs the gloves are off and some major, major death numbers out of big strikes. Maybe even electricity cut again and stuff like that. In a inhumane twist, Palestinians will basically be held hostage until their neighbors come get them The rest of the Arab world would prefer the entire population of Gaza to be wiped out a dozen times over than take 1% of the Gazans into their nation. But let's bet $100 on it. If there are Gazans in Gaza on 11/13/28 then you win. If there aren't then I win. | ||
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Billyboy
1114 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:36 KwarK wrote: The rest of the Arab world would prefer the entire population of Gaza to be wiped out a dozen times over than take 1% of the Gazans into their nation. But let's bet $100 on it. If there are Gazans in Gaza on 11/13/28 then you win. If there aren't then I win. This is a under discussed point and makes the Iranian support so questionable. If you disagree, look at how the Muslim groups that Iran does not like are treated in Syria. And Hezbollah was there killing them as well (which cost them some support in Lebanon). The sad reality is no one has the people of Gaza and Westbanks best interest at heart. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15713 Posts
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stilt
France2750 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/06/palestinians-will-not-be-allowed-to-return-to-homes-in-northern-gaza-says-idf Here's a translation of giora elland's thought in november 2023 in thr newspaper Yediot Ahronot : Part 1 https://imgur.com/Np1ZRIX Part 2 https://i.imgur.com/4lv433L.png He is a former general and current member of the insitut of defense who has at numerous advocated for famine. Backed by smotrich https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1726198721946480911?s=20 Meanwhile, another jewish historian of the shoah defines what's happening as a genocide. https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2024/10/29/amos-goldberg-historien-israelien-ce-qui-se-passe-a-gaza-est-un-genocide-car-gaza-n-existe-plus_6364702_3232.html Tbf I didn't know him before but Omar bartov on the other end is really the specialist of the german army and the shoah, his reputation exceeds his field. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany999 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:36 KwarK wrote: The rest of the Arab world would prefer the entire population of Gaza to be wiped out a dozen times over than take 1% of the Gazans into their nation. But let's bet $100 on it. If there are Gazans in Gaza on 11/13/28 then you win. If there aren't then I win. Sadly agreed. Refugees from muslim Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria 100% know that fleeing to any of the insanely rich gulf states will get them rejected, killed or likely put into slavery like working conditions. Also many of the countries tried to host palestinians - got bitten by palestinian revolts against anyone not part-taking in violence against israel. Most muslim dominated nations praise the "heroic fight" and some gladly will finance it.. but actually none of them care for the people.. which writing this sentence became clear to me.. is a requirement of financing hamas/fatah in the first place, since they operate with the population both as human shield and ressource. | ||
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KwarK
United States42967 Posts
On November 14 2024 03:55 stilt wrote: All these discussions without any serious sources or links are manufactured fantasy, here's a bit more relaty : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/06/palestinians-will-not-be-allowed-to-return-to-homes-in-northern-gaza-says-idf Here's a translation of giora elland's thought in november 2023 in thr newspaper Yediot Ahronot : Part 1 https://imgur.com/Np1ZRIX Part 2 https://i.imgur.com/4lv433L.png He is a former general and current member of the insitut of defense who has at numerous advocated for famine. Backed by smotrich https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1726198721946480911?s=20 Meanwhile, another jewish historian of the shoah defines what's happening as a genocide. https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2024/10/29/amos-goldberg-historien-israelien-ce-qui-se-passe-a-gaza-est-un-genocide-car-gaza-n-existe-plus_6364702_3232.html Tbf I didn't know him before but Omar bartov on the other end is really the specialist of the german army and the shoah, his reputation exceeds his field. The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany999 Posts
Now I think it's in the open for israel to again occupy gaza. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12262 Posts
On November 14 2024 04:06 KwarK wrote: The area was used as a launchpad by Hamas for an attack on Israel. Keeping it as an empty DMZ makes a degree of military sense. If they move Israelis into the DMZ and then demand another strip of land as a new DMZ deeper into Gaza then that'd be ethnic cleansing. If they keep it clear of civilians then that's just a consequence of Hamas's explicit policy of stationing fighters in civilian areas and using them as launchpads to rape Israeli women and kill Israeli infants. Israel has tried to play nice with Gaza for a while and it just hasn't worked. Gaza's government has made a series of extremely bad policy choices and Israel is taking the steps it requires to secure itself from Gaza. Israel is done with it. Just like they're done with working with the UN when the UN fails to do anything to address Israel's legitimate grievances. The decision to establish a depopulated border zone implies there is no intent to eradicate Gazans though. You only need that zone if you're planning long term coexistence with a neighbour who hates you. You wouldn't invest in high fences with a neighbour if you were planning to just kill him and steal his house. It seems very bold to bet on the notion that they won't be moving Israelis into the DMZ. It goes against their stated goals, their rhetoric, and their previous actions. The main objection seems to be that it doesn't make rational sense, and that has rarely stopped far right governments in the past. | ||
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